Kennedy how much of a loss?

[Murph_The_Smurf]

That's my point Fev kicked 99 goals this year and other plays gave their contribution like you say, and still you guys didn't make the top 8. So I don't really see that as a solution

Your forgetting walker was out most of the year , so to houlahan , and fisher had a terrible year to his pb. another preseason in the younger blokes a full preseason for judd and stevens and i think were looking up. so your agrument has no basis what so ever here. your just trying to say in a smart way we have no forward line. good try.

 

[mac25]

Firstly I'll say that's about the sharpest summary of our stocks as I've seen from any opposition supporter (sharper than many here in fact).

Secondly, Kennedy is a loss. We have a hole at CHF that was obvious from the day we traded him. He hasn't established himself yet by any means, but I'm confident he will and the Eagles will get 200 games from him. In the meantime we've been trying to fill the hole left behind, without really succeeding.

You pays your money and you takes your choice. It's a fact we needed Judd more than we needed Josh, so here we are. We'll have to keep turning over the list until we find another CHF. Opposition fans forget Fev himself was pick 38, so it's more than possible to find another gun key forward with a first round pick. It's not like 2009 is our last shot at a premiership.

Your comments are spot-on for Carlton to challenge Hawthorn within the next few years, we will need to find another quality tall forward and looking at our current list it seems apparent we do have any players of this nature on our list.

lt may be that Kruezer/Waite can provide some support in this area until we can find a quality young forward, Cloke,Hartlett,Edwards are not the solution long term when we are competing against the best.

 

[Blueinblood]

Dont really need a CHF. Just another tall target who could have a similar impact to Will Minson and Bring the ball to ground for the likes of Bettts Yarram Houlihan and so on. The Bulldogs have shown u dont need many tall targets to score well, just very good structure and a player to bring the ball to ground. Cloke im pretty sure can play a forward roll. Not so sure if i want to see Special K spend lots of time up forward. Rather see his tank take him into the middle with small 10 minustes stints up forward.

 

[thylacine60]

First of all it was a question not saying your side wasn’t any good statement.

Secondly in Parrots arguments there are many flaws but hey I’m not going to turn this into "who has the best side" ECT I'm not here to troll
Thirdly it amazes me how many of you guys jump off a player as soon as he has left the club, the bloke 21 and showed he has the potential to be a more than handy footballer, and soon as his gone his sh!t all of a sudden. In the same breath I hear optimism for blokes like Edwards who has showed less than Kennedy, please take off the rose coloured glasses.

Ultimately your list changed out of that trade from Kennedy to Judd (excluding the picks you traded which were never tangibles). I would love Judd he would actually be the first bloke I would choose if I had a choice out of anyone in the league.

You want us to spend the next few years weeping about losing an unproven player when the loss resulted in gaining the best in the comp. That's what you want us to do - show some bullshit massive regret and you're actually "amazed" that we've moved on. Sorry we can't provide you with more hand-wringing. What is really amazing is clowns like you trying to milk more out of the issue than was ever there. Get over it.

 

[Optimax]

Dont really need a CHF. Just another tall target who could have a similar impact to Will Minson and Bring the ball to ground for the likes of Bettts Yarram Houlihan and so on. The Bulldogs have shown u dont need many tall targets to score well, just very good structure and a player to bring the ball to ground. Cloke im pretty sure can play a forward roll. Not so sure if i want to see Special K spend lots of time up forward. Rather see his tank take him into the middle with small 10 minustes stints up forward.

Thats not really true, you cant just keep fevola with some make shift players around him as he will constantly get double or triple teamed.

The bulldogs arnt a good example as they struggled in finals without a tall and even teh regular season. Geelong is another example the time comes you need another tall forward and lonergan type players arnt good enough.

Possibly if you leave kruzer as a CHF it'll work with warnock and hampson to ruck, but cloke will just be another make shift at his best he will be a contested marking forward pocket/third tall not the chf attention drawer you need

 

[HFF]

Firstly lets put things into perspective. The Blues have the best FF in the AFL. Currently our other KP forwards are Waite, Fisher and Kruezer. Pretty good in fact. Our forward weakness was actually small-medium crumbing forwards. We have addressed that issue in this draft nicely. Now, lets look at the Dons KP forward situation - Lloyd, and Lucas are both over 30, and are barely justifying a spot in your starting 22, and will retire at years end. Who else? Gumby's played less than 10 games and hasn't shown much. So in fact the Dons KP situation is orders of magnitude worse than the Blues KP forward setup. And when you factor in that most would acknowledge the Dons midfield as being the worst in the AFL, plus they have statistically the worse performing defense in 2008, it all adds up to a multi-faceted disaster that you should perhaps be turning your "conversations" to.

A bloke called Lance Franklin says hi.

Also, Waite is now a CHB, so hardly a key position forward.

Fisher is ueseless, if he weren't contracted, he would have been delisted by now, hence why they attempted to move him on via trade week but there were no takers.

Kreuzer is a star, but hardly a key forward. He can pinch hit but is a ruckman and will be a bloody good one at that.

In fact, none of the three you mentioned are key forwards. Whilst your weaknesses were small-medium forwards and you addressed that to an extent with Yarran, lack of key position players is an issue, no matter what spin you may want to put on it.

Not a crack because every side has glaring weaknesses but clubs tend to address those weaknesses, whereas I haven't seen the Blues draft a key defender or a promising key forward (Kennedy excluded for obvious reasons), in the last 2-3 drafts.

It is worth noting the reigning premiers built the spine first before addressing other areas of need.

Fev does not get injured, he's gotta be one of the most durable players in the game.

He leads hard and fast with no regard for who is filling the hole in front of him, flies into packs or has 2 or 3 defenders converge on top of him almost every time the ball comes his way (about 90% of our F50 entries) and how many games has he missed with injuy?

People often say '...but what if Fev gets injured?'

Fev does not get injured! Sink three bullets into his chest and watch him get up and kick the winning goal from 60 after the siren!

He wears the CFC logo on his chest like Superman's big S

Browny and Reiwoldt play with similar courage throwing themselves into packs of big bodies, how many games have they missed with injury?

Re: OP, let Kennedy get out on the park and play a few games before we start lamenting the loss of a future champion because one thing is for certain: we definitely aren't missing another potential CHF who can't get out onto the park from our premiership 22.

Browny and Riewoldt have actually missed plenty of games with injury because of the style of game they play. They are bash and crash and will launch themselves at the footy and take whatever hits come their way. Both players have injured shoulders, knees, backs, hammys. Fev does not play in the same mould or manner as these two.

Fev, as you said is a lead-up FF. Plays a different style to the other two which is why his body is very sound and hasn't been battered.

However, you cannot discount the chance of injuries. IF Fev does go down, where to from there?

It's all well and good when he is on the park but what happens when he is forced to miss?

 

[thylacine60]

A bloke called Lance Franklin says hi.

Also, Waite is now a CHB, so hardly a key position forward.

Fisher is ueseless, if he weren't contracted, he would have been delisted by now, hence why they attempted to move him on via trade week but there were no takers.

Kreuzer is a star, but hardly a key forward. He can pinch hit but is a ruckman and will be a bloody good one at that.

In fact, none of the three you mentioned are key forwards. Whilst your weaknesses were small-medium forwards and you addressed that to an extent with Yarran, lack of key position players is an issue, no matter what spin you may want to put on it.

Not a crack because every side has glaring weaknesses but clubs tend to address those weaknesses, whereas I haven't seen the Blues draft a key defender or a promising key forward (Kennedy excluded for obvious reasons), in the last 2-3 drafts.

It is worth noting the reigning premiers built the spine first before addressing other areas of need.



Browny and Riewoldt have actually missed plenty of games with injury because of the style of game they play. They are bash and crash and will launch themselves at the footy and take whatever hits come their way. Both players have injured shoulders, knees, backs, hammys. Fev does not play in the same mould or manner as these two.

Fev, as you said is a lead-up FF. Plays a different style to the other two which is why his body is very sound and hasn't been battered.

However, you cannot discount the chance of injuries. IF Fev does go down, where to from there?

It's all well and good when he is on the park but what happens when he is forced to miss?

Who gives a royal **** about whatifs? What happens if a giant asteroid wipes out the Laxative Centre? Aside from drastically increase the State IQ I mean? Stick to reality - it's the only place to be.

 

[HFF]

Who gives a royal **** about whatifs? What happens if a giant asteroid wipes out the Laxative Centre? Aside from drastically increase the State IQ I mean? Stick to reality - it's the only place to be.

In reality, there are contingency plans in place for such disasters.

 

[thylacine60]

In reality, there are contingency plans in place for such disasters.

Not surprised. Now go and enjoy your cold ham sangas with mustard and behave.

 

[mediumsizered]

Not a crack because every side has glaring weaknesses but clubs tend to address those weaknesses, whereas I haven't seen the Blues draft a key defender or a promising key forward (Kennedy excluded for obvious reasons), in the last 2-3 drafts.

It is worth noting the reigning premiers built the spine first before addressing other areas of need.

2005: Paul Bower (who towelled up Travis Cloke in Round 4 this season)
2006: Mark Austin (bottom aged, who has played a handful of games)
2007: Michael Jamison (has already cemented the FB position as his own).

There has been a definite lack of quality KP players/forwards available to us in the last 2 drafts, since we traded Kennedy. No point drafting a player just because he is tall. The history of the draft is littered with tall players who have been drafted on 'spec' & failed. Draft best available, not just based on physical features.

 

[Silvagnis]

I love this blind rhetoric about our lack of forwards and need to find another CHF.

It's almost as bad as the rhetoric about Carlton needing to draft a key defender in Hurley and supposedly failing to draft a key forward like the OP posted. Carlton kicked the sixth highest score in 2008 with just one key forward and defeated sides who have two gun tall forwards on more than one occasion.

Yarran's class is needed more than a Hurley who we rated lower than Chris...

But Fev is getting old, so we should be worried about what ifs.

Hawthorn and Geelong would struggle if they lost Franklin and Johnson who are their best forwards.

Thorp has shown nothing and is no replacement for Franklin.

Neither is Roughead who would find it harder without Buddy receiving the lion share of attention and drawing two defenders each week.

Essendon have finished in the bottom half of the ladder with Lucas and Lloyd, so tall forwards aren't necessarily the be all, end all. Essendon and Collingwood aren't guaranteed success just because they drafted Gumbleton, Neagle, Reid, Rusling, Cloke and Anthony.

Pardon my French, but I wouldn't wipe my Dean Putt with that argument.

KPP are fools gold...

Just look at the BigFooty and media group think on Kennedy whose selection ahead of Pendlebury was used to troll Carlton before we traded him.

No one writes this about Richmond who have the following riches in young tall forwards.

Carlton would be OK only we had Riewoldt and Hughes as our future forwards options.

Everyone is obsessed with the Hawthorn model and thinks drafting talls is the only way you can win a flag.

I wouldn't swap Gibbs for a tall such as Gumbleton, J.Riewoldt or Reid if you threw in a second rounder from the 2006 draft.

That's the equivalent of cutting off your nose to spite your face.

Carlton still needs to get the basics right first and fix our midfield, rucks, skill level, forward structure, kick ins and backline before we're reading to challenge for a flag. It's almost like the 2007 and 2008 drafts was the last chance for Carlton to find a key forward and build to a flag within the next three years.

People still don't know our list as well as they and the media think.

I'm excited about Hampson playing as an athletic resting ruckman who can go forward and take a grab like he did against Melbourne and Port in the past 12 months.

Hammer has the pace, mobility and leap to play forward like Hale.

 

[blues_gibbzy]

Hammer is more Athletic and as a bigman only started when he was 17 so has more time to develop but the signs are good could play anywhere tbh....imagine if Angwin wasn't a nobhead we'd have CHF cemented

 

[DonFletch]

Hammer is more Athletic and as a bigman only started when he was 17 so has more time to develop but the signs are good could play anywhere tbh....imagine if Angwin wasn't a nobhead we'd have CHF cemented

...and imagine if Mark Athorn wasn't such a dud in 1993...
etc...
etc...

what if's are irrelavent, to dwell in that element is to dwell in a w***er's paradise.

 

[HFF]

2005: Paul Bower (who towelled up Travis Cloke in Round 4 this season)
2006: Mark Austin (bottom aged, who has played a handful of games)
2007: Michael Jamison (has already cemented the FB position as his own).

There has been a definite lack of quality KP players/forwards available to us in the last 2 drafts, since we traded Kennedy. No point drafting a player just because he is tall. The history of the draft is littered with tall players who have been drafted on 'spec' & failed. Draft best available, not just based on physical features.

Bower is a very good player but is nowhere near good enough to hold a key position. He is a rebounding defender capable of playing medium to small. Similar to a Grant Birchall as both spend time up the ground too.

Austin can potentially become a key defender but hasn't played much so is an unknown quantity.

Jamison is a gem but again, his ability to play on quality talls is questionable. Can handle the mediums and smalls very well though.

I do agree that you draft on a best available basis, however, there comes a time where you need to address pressing needs in order to progress further and complete the list.

 

[HARKER]

[/b]

...and imagine if Mark Athorn wasn't such a dud in 1993...
etc...
etc...

what if's are irrelavent, to dwell in that element is to dwell in a w***er's paradise.

Why did you mention Athorn?

I was having a good night until the point of seeing his name.
The nightmares are starting to come back.

Must see my shrink
Must see my shri.........

 

[DonFletch]

Why did you mention Athorn?

I was having a good night until the point of seeing his name.
The nightmares are starting to come back.

Must see my shrink
Must see my shri.........

hahaha!! sorry bout that....count jordan russells'....that should help you sleep better...

 

[lecca]

U carlton supporters live in dreamland. U think judd is gonna solve all your problems? I donk think so. Judd was the best in the leauge at westcoast but is far from it now. He is now a seagull on 1 leg. He gets credit for winning game for carlton when stevens and fev is the 1 that lifts and win games for u. As for kennedy he is gonna b a star. Did u not watch his game against carlton do u call 17 possessions, 8 marks and 2 goals good for a center half forward?

 

[Blues_Man]

U carlton supporters live in dreamland. U think judd is gonna solve all your problems? I donk think so. Judd was the best in the leauge at westcoast but is far from it now. He is now a seagull on 1 leg. He gets credit for winning game for carlton when stevens and fev is the 1 that lifts and win games for u. As for kennedy he is gonna b a star. Did u not watch his game against carlton do u call 17 possessions, 8 marks and 2 goals good for a center half forward?

Yep kennedy was your best player ..and we still towelled up your drug infested mob .
You don't have a player on your list that is half as good as Judd ..thats why the poor old west coke egirls hardly won a game lat year ..nothing has changed ..enjoy your time in the bottom 3 newbie .

 

[j-ham]

U carlton supporters live in dreamland. U think judd is gonna solve all your problems? I donk think so. Judd was the best in the leauge at westcoast but is far from it now. He is now a seagull on 1 leg. He gets credit for winning game for carlton when stevens and fev is the 1 that lifts and win games for u. As for kennedy he is gonna b a star. Did u not watch his game against carlton do u call 17 possessions, 8 marks and 2 goals good for a center half forward?

There is no way your English is that shit. Come on mate, stop taking the piss.

Anyway in regards to this thread, we didn't trade Kennedy for Judd, we upgraded Kennedy to Kreuzer.

Who would most people choose out of those two? I'm tipping Kreuzer .

 

[TOA.]

Many of us at WC were not totally enthralled at getting Josh but he's been really impressive for us. Early in the year he was putting in great games, a step up statistically at least from what he was doing for you guys. We also put alot of time into his body (reducing excess weight) and increasing speed/agility which has really improved since this time last year.

I think Josh will be a 10yr player for us but you got Judd so you cant lose.

 

[mediumsizered]

Bower is a very good player but is nowhere near good enough to hold a key position. He is a rebounding defender capable of playing medium to small. Similar to a Grant Birchall as both spend time up the ground too.
Austin can potentially become a key defender but hasn't played much so is an unknown quantity.

Jamison is a gem but again, his ability to play on quality talls is questionable. Can handle the mediums and smalls very well though.

I do agree that you draft on a best available basis, however, there comes a time where you need to address pressing needs in order to progress further and complete the list.

You do realise that Bower played quite successfully on Travis Cloke, Buddy Franklin & Daniel Bradshaw during the 2008 season & at 192cm is the same height as Matty Scarlett, Darren Glass, Ben Rutten & Jared Rivers (among others), who have all played successfully as KP defenders. Bower plays nothing like Birchall, who plays a similar role to your own Tyson Goldsack. Bower's best games in his 24 game career have come when playing on taller forwards.

As for drafting for need, that is all well & good if there is a player available at your pick, who not only suits your need, but has enough talent to suggest they will be good enough to cut it at AFL level. You don't draft a tall player with limited talent just because you need KP players & from what I have seen in both this year's & last year's ND, outside of Matty Kreuzer, there were no talls available when our picks were due that were worth wasting a pick on (the closest we came was Caleb Tiller, a bottom aged kid, who at 189cm could play a role as a marking forward, being the same height as Michael O'Loughlin).

 

[Silvagnis]

Bower is a very good player but is nowhere near good enough to hold a key position. He is a rebounding defender capable of playing medium to small. Similar to a Grant Birchall as both spend time up the ground too.

Bower beat Travis Cloke in round four and ran off him to create a lot of drive for the Blues off half back.

Cloke couldn't keep up with Bower on the rebound.

Bower was switched to full back on Bradshaw in round 21 and outmarked him in a one on one contest.

Bradshaw is a unit.

Waite went forward and kicked two goals in the last quarter to help us get over the line...

Austin can potentially become a key defender but hasn't played much so is an unknown quantity.

As was Nathan Brown this time last year.

Our backline is still a mystery to footy people when the likes of Waite, Jamison, Setanta, Thornton and Bower kept Austin out of the side.

I rate Austin more than Kennedy because his game as a forward which was televised on the ABC is still stuck in my head. Austin took hangers in torrential conditions as a forward and converted his shots from 40 to 50 out. But it was Austin's mobility in the wet for a KPP who stands 193 cms which really stood out.

Austin is the same size as Bower after just two pre-seasons.

I'd favour a mobile and athletic forwards such as Kreuzer, Walker, Waite, Austin and Hampson rotating through our forwardline than the traditional CHF and FF set up.

Depending on match ups and our opponent.

Kreuzer is capable of playing as well as Kennedy on larger grounds when he has a motor to rival Nick Riewoldt's.

Kreuzer beat Port with a three goal quarter as a forward.

He was a big man when he plucked that grab in the square at the highest point and stole it from Fevola who had front position.

Jamison is a gem but again, his ability to play on quality talls is questionable. Can handle the mediums and smalls very well though.

Jamison pantsed Bradshaw and kept him goalless.

I do agree that you draft on a best available basis, however, there comes a time where you need to address pressing needs in order to progress further and complete the list.

I'd rather have Mitch Robinson than Paul Cahill and Jordan Lisle who fell out of the top fifty.

Ditto for Steven Browne and Scott Simpson.

We need a few hardnuts who can kick and play midfield and half back.

Defensive pressure across the ground plus an A grade midfield and a very good backline will create more scoring chances for our medium and small forwards.

Hartlett avoiding any black cats wouldn't hurt when he can kick and mark.

 

[thylacine60]

Quality work, TG. You should be doing the match reports next season.

 

[AlecDuncan]

I rate Austin more than Kennedy because his game as a forward which was televised on the ABC is still stuck in my head. Austin took hangers in torrential conditions as a forward and converted his shots from 40 to 50 out. But it was Austin's mobility in the wet for a KPP who stands 193 cms which really stood out.

The North Ballarat game? The thing that stuck in my head from that was watching Gavin Crosisca cleaning the windows of the coaches box so he could see the game. I hope they're putting in new drains there this summer.

 

[Forrest Gimp]

Oh FFS ..

Kennedy is a spud of the highest order, and as far as i'm concerned, he's not welcome back at the club.
Too slow, too lazy, not a very reliable kick of the football, I doubt he'll be at West Coast or in the AFL in 3 years time.

We'd get more value out this gem in all honesty ^^^^^

Hartlett's finished (to be honest even before his latest injury) but hopefully Kruezer can keep on developing and spend time in the foward line, as well as his rucking duties.

West Coast and Sydney have proven in recent years that you don't need a gun CHF to win a flag (and no, Bazza Hall is more a roaming FF then CHF)

And not to mention though the expected Spark Yazza is going to bring (although i expect him to play more of an Andrew Mcleod type role in the midfield as he gets older)

Jeez.... you are a flog of the highest order. Yeah we proved that you don't need an a+ class CHF, just an A+++ midfield which you don't even have close to. Kennedy has looked GOOD when playing for us, way better than someone to simply write off as below AFL standard. Your insecure and desperate to score points in your own mind for the Judd trade.

You should have nothing to say but good things about a young bloke who was nothing but loyal to your club, but I guess a filthy heartless traitor like you would know nothing about loyalty. You don't like to mention his work ethic and great hands because it isn't convenient. Pathetic.

edit: As for calling him lazy, you have shown yourself to be a football spud. When Kennedy wasn't getting the ball delivered to him at CHF, he would go downfield to get it himself and exhaust himself in the process. If he want's to play the game he showed at WC, then he needs to get fitter, but that isn't a sign of laziness, it's the opposite. He was far from too slow for his position either.

My brain is struggling to compute the amount of utter shite that you have written with this post. I'm exasperated. Especially since he was one of your players (Carlton, not Geelong).