Draft Profile Liam Stocker

[year of the cat]

Look, probably a bit harsh to say "lifted" as I'm sure it's your own genuine opinion, but it's just a really common one that Carlton supporters that understand where the club is going and why we've made the decisions we have get a little bit tired of. Now I don't blame neutral fans for having that opinion because you guys will only believe what you see (in games) and what the media feeds you.

TLDR for the following: A lot of neutral supporters opinions about our recruiting are based on believing poorly conceived media articles and not understanding the true reasons for our horrible 2-win season.

Long version:

1) What the footy media says about us

It's been media types like Matthew Loyd that have written lazy, research-free, surface-level articles about our recruiting.

The reality is that around 75-80% of our trade currency over the past 4 years have NOT gone into GWS players. They have gone into young talent in the draft, like Weitering, Curnow, Mackay, Petrevski-Seton, Fisher, Williamson, Macreadie, Dow, O'Brien, Cuningham, Walsh and Stocker.

Add to these guys the four GWS targets that we have genuinely gone after (and got for decent prices) - Setterfield, Kennedy, Marchbank and Plowman.

These guys are the rebuild. And there's nothing to suggest that any of those players, including the GWS four, aren't going to make it if a couple of them can work through their injury issues. Marchbank and Plowman are already best 22, with Plowman in the leadership group last year.

The other GWS players were basically salary dumps, or free swings that we hoped would provide some cover and depth. They didn't really work out, but we didn't actually pay anything for them either. People need to stop pretending that GWS-trading has been some core strategy in our rebuild because it absolutely as not. We've taken good-value trades from them when we've believed in will provide young talent to add to the rebuild, or depth to cover for it.

2) Our on-field performance in 2018

Well it's difficult to defend this from what an opposition supporter sees, but there are reasons.

The first thing people need to keep in mind is exactly how far back we were coming from when we decided to rebuild in 2015. The list was a huge mess - and the first thing we needed to do was actually trade out a lot of the older talent we actually did have in order to hit the draft the way we needed to. Think GWS or Suns when they were starting, but wit less concessions, and I'm not even joking here.

Fast forward 3 years and what you get in 2018 is a list that is the youngest and least experienced that group is ever going to be - yes there is a lot more potential but that takes time to develop. It actually makes perfect sense that the 3rd year of a complete rebuild (where at the end of each of those years you're removing more experienced players and replacing them with younger, raw talent) is going to be the toughest - particularly when you combine that year with a horrible run with injuries and very questionable (to say the least) injury management.

There is a very good reason why we sacked our previous High Performance guy at the end of the 2018 season and threw the kitchen sink at Andrew Russell to get him over from Hawthorn. There were huge question marks over our player management in 2018 and it's one of the key reasons why our year was so terrible - our team had no continuity at all with players constantly in and out. And yes - a more developed and mature team would have the depth to cover for this, but in the most vulnerable year of our rebuild, we didn't.

As evidence for this, since starting at the club Russell (according to ITK posters on our board) has already expressed serious surprise at just how underdone for AFL level a lot of our players actually were.

I think you'll see a significant jump from us over the next 2 seasons as our players from the start of the rebuild move into their fourth and fifth years and we supplement that with other talent to fill holes. I'm confident SOS has chosen well, and certainly don't see any real evidence to the contrary at the moment. Of course, whether they'll turn out to be good players that can get us into the 8, or great players that will get us to a flag is something we won't know for some time yet.

As for your comment about the facts not being indisputable - well that makes them opinions, not facts

Good post. And with lots of detail.

I agree that there is clearly more wrong than JUST the recruitment department but from a neutral the perception is that Carl haven't exactly set the world on fire with many of the list management decisions they have made in recent years. Many clearly preceded Silvagni getting there but others haven't. Being a Cats fan I suppose we've been the beneficiary of having Tuohy come our way and in return give up Smedts. I know there was more to that trade. Losing Henderson was another questionable decision when your club was becoming bereft of senior mentoring talent already. Adding list cloggers like Rhys Palmer, Jed Lamb, Liam Sumner and Darcy Lang are all decisions that, as a neutral, you scratch your head over.

Of course there have been some wins. Marchbank looks to be quality. Plowman promising too. I think it's too early to rate both Kennedy and of course Setterfield at this stage.

I think your point re development is a sound one too. I have similar concerns at Geelong. We've failed to have a host of recent young talent come on as we would have liked and saw happen back in the early 2000's. Gaining Russell is a massive win for your club.

But going back to Silvagni, he, to me, doesn't seem to be a bloke with a vision that is one you could have a lot of confidence in. I think the preparedness to trade out all that experience for hopefully young talent is very risky. Having mentors and experienced players to set standards etc is critical. You'd want to see the likes of Petrevski-Seton, McKay, Gartlett, MacCreadie, Cunningham, Polson etc come on quickly now in order to move up the ladder in any substantial manner. Otherwise another 5 years will go past with little to celebrate.

 

[year of the cat]

This is an incredibly simplistic way of looking at things, with little thought put into why we are where we are, and what we've done over the past few years with Silvagni in charge.

When you shed as much experience and bring in as many kids as we have over the past few years, the reality is a few lowly finishes are to be expected.

That is part of my criticism!!

And yet, if I asked you to expand on this, I'd bet a significant amount that have no understanding of the rationale behind the decision to recruit these players.

You can talk about lazy recruiting, but the reality is this is a lazy and tired argument.



Really? Even when he has said a number of times over the past few years, that he has stepped away from the process completely, when it comes to his sons and deciding whether or not to draft them?

Was it nepotistic for Dororo to bid on Jack in the 2015 draft?



All well and good to put this forward, but you haven't exactly explained it particularly well.

But can he really? You can't tell me that him being the head of your list management team doesn't influence the decisions of those who report to him?! Even if unintentionally. I happen to know the father of a kid drafted this year who is amazed that Ben was drafted. Says that he is so far behind that many that haven't been drafted it's "laughable".

Dodoro was taking the piss when he did that. It was a bit of byplay that went on.

 

[Marcel Proust]

A stack of big misses in that list!

Richmond 4th despite winning the Grand Final

Richmond lost the prelim to Collingwood

pre Tom Lynch era

 

[La Dispute]

Losing Henderson was another questionable decision when your club was becoming bereft of senior mentoring talent already. Adding list cloggers like Rhys Palmer, Jed Lamb, Liam Sumner and Darcy Lang are all decisions that, as a neutral, you scratch your head over.

Henderson leaving was put out of our hands, but even so he was not the kind of player we needed going into the rebuild. Dropped his head multiple times in 2015 (and prior to that) while we were struggling to get any meaningful entries going forward, refused to lead if he didn’t think he was going to get the ball and basically gave up towards the back end of the season. We effectively got McKay out of that particular trade, who looks to be a future gun, so I think we did very well out of the deal.

Lamb, Palmer and Sumner were all salary cap dumps. They had the dual purpose of allowing us to bring in the players we wanted (Plowman, Marchbank) and would occupy a spot in the team until a young player pushed them out. Yeh none of them became long-term players, but they weren’t expected to - just like you’d never anticipate a very late draft selection to be a surefire hit. It’s incredibly rare, and that would have been the alternative to taking these players on. FWIW Sumner and Lamb played some reasonable footy for the club in patches, so I think we actually did OK in bringing them in. Sumner had the same issues he did at GWS with injury and fitness and Lamb for all his effort was nothing more than a low production trier who was reasonably effective as a defensive forward. Palmer was basically finished when he came in, and wasn’t any better than guys like Graham or Kerridge.

I still hold out a bit of hope for Lang. Just desperately needs to regain fitness, and find his niche.

 

[La Dispute]

Richmond lost the prelim to Collingwood

Haha technically not far off but prior to the prelim were the dominant team of 2018.

 

[Shaz2012]

Folks always seem to forget we have Adelaide's first round pick. An inconvenient truth?

Let's say Carlton finishes 2nd last and Crows finish 7th.

Pick 2 gets swapped for 12 (and Stocker).

Pick 2 could be a gun, or a dud.
Pick 12 could be a gun, or a dud.
Stocker may be a gun, or a dud.

In 2015 pick 2 was Josh Schache, pick 12 Charlie Curnow. How'd that turn out?

This trade can NOT be evaluated until at least four years from now.

You have summed up one possible win-win scenario. A likely one too, and since you can’t actually do anything now with 4 years hindsight, I am calling the trade a clear win-win now. Both clubs would be happy to bet on something like this.

Your club has to make decisions. You either back them now, or don’t. Fans shouldnt get to judge in hindsight. What does it even mean to judge a trade 4 years from now. You either pull the trigger now, or you don’t. I judge both clubs on the fact that they pulled the trigger now, and at the time of making it, the decision is good from both sides. Now let the chips fall where they may.

 

[SickQwon]

It's nearly 2019 and people still don't understand the advantage of salary dumping....

Only God can save this board now.

 

[Shaz2012]

Richmond lost the prelim to Collingwood

pre Tom Lynch era

Looking forward to your new low pressure forward structures in action. Hopefully you just bomb it in

 

[Marcel Proust]

Looking forward to your new low pressure forward structures in action.

6-6-6 thank you Budda Hocking

Rioli, Higgins, Butler, Castagna will still be around the edges

Hopefully you just bomb it in

At least number 2 key forward Mr Lynch will be sat there waiting

 

[RedFury]

Good post. And with lots of detail.

I agree that there is clearly more wrong than JUST the recruitment department but from a neutral the perception is that Carl haven't exactly set the world on fire with many of the list management decisions they have made in recent years. Many clearly preceded Silvagni getting there but others haven't. Being a Cats fan I suppose we've been the beneficiary of having Tuohy come our way and in return give up Smedts. I know there was more to that trade. Losing Henderson was another questionable decision when your club was becoming bereft of senior mentoring talent already. Adding list cloggers like Rhys Palmer, Jed Lamb, Liam Sumner and Darcy Lang are all decisions that, as a neutral, you scratch your head over.

Of course there have been some wins. Marchbank looks to be quality. Plowman promising too. I think it's too early to rate both Kennedy and of course Setterfield at this stage.

I think your point re development is a sound one too. I have similar concerns at Geelong. We've failed to have a host of recent young talent come on as we would have liked and saw happen back in the early 2000's. Gaining Russell is a massive win for your club.

But going back to Silvagni, he, to me, doesn't seem to be a bloke with a vision that is one you could have a lot of confidence in. I think the preparedness to trade out all that experience for hopefully young talent is very risky. Having mentors and experienced players to set standards etc is critical. You'd want to see the likes of Petrevski-Seton, McKay, Gartlett, MacCreadie, Cunningham, Polson etc come on quickly now in order to move up the ladder in any substantial manner. Otherwise another 5 years will go past with little to celebrate.

There's some valid points here particularly, which I didn't think about, from the perspective of a Cats fan as arguably some of our more questionable trades have been with you guys.

The trading out of senior experience we both addressed was indeed partly because we needed more young talent - but that's only part of the picture. Yarran was having very serious issues (which unfortunately for the young guy turned out to be AFL career ending) when we traded him to Richmond and Henderson had made it very clear that he wanted out.

Yes, when you're getting in young talent then senior players are important, but not if they don't want to be there and may convey a less-than-stellar attitude to the younger guys. Henderson seems to be really happy at Geelong, and we got a pick in return that I think got us either McKay or C.Curnow, so probably win-win there.

The Tuohy one is a bit of a head-scratcher if you look at it in isolation, we definitely seem to like taking your list-cloggers But if you view it as part of a bigger picture in that trade period, I think we were struggling to get a GWS deal done (think it might have been Marchbank) and we needed a pick from that trade to get that across the line.

So we lost Tuohy to gain Marchy, which was okay for us because Tuohy played in the one area which we actually had a bit of depth in (HBF intercept/rebound where we have Simpson, Docherty and now a couple of others coming through.) I do concede I think our list management undervalued Tuohy in that whole scenario though - he's a gun.

Agree about the point on senior players, and I feel we are perhaps a little thin in that area but we're just going to have to hope that Simpson, Murphy, E.Curnow, Thomas along with new Captains Cripps and Docherty (who are absolutely considered senior players in experience, attitude and work ethic) is enough to drive the younger guys through. I'm optimistic it will be.

As for the other guys you mention:
Palmer: I believe this was a salary dump to help the Marchbank/Pickett trade. I guess we also hoped he would be useful as a senior body, but we got that part wrong.

Lamb, Sumner: Again they were free hits, as players that were pretty high draft picks and (in Lamb's case) had shown a bit at another club (Sydney) they were worth the punt. Sumner didn't work out at all. Lamb was useful for a couple of years to plug some holes while the young draftees were in their first couple of years, which tbh would have been roughly what the club expected I think.

Lang: Again came pretty cheap, a first-round draft pick and was playing games (including one really quality final) for the cats the month before he was traded. I have to admit I don't like the look of him as a long-term player but I still can't fault the club for the trade given the risk/reward factor at the time.

It will certainly be interesting to see how everything turns out.

 

[the nail]

Yep and Rance was picked up at 19.
Comparing number one pick Weitering to Rance is laughable. Weitering will be lucky to even be the best intercept defender in his draft class let alone best player. Not what you want from a number one pick.

Although still expect him to end up better than serviceable.

not talking about where they were drafted at,or comparing the 2.what sort of player was rance in his first 3 years......how we forget

 

[the nail]

Apart from pick 1 / 2 in the 2019 AFL national draft potentially.



Rance > SOS / scarlett

ha ha ha ha...youre funny...ill give u that....so tell me besides,franklin.josh kenedey,who are the superstar forwards ,rance has had to face in his whole career...this is going to be good.....and sos ,only kicked over 220 goals....not bad as full back of the century

 

[Malifice]

Losing Henderson was another questionable decision when your club was becoming bereft of senior mentoring talent already.

Firstly, Henderson left. He was uncontracted. It was your club that convinced him to leave and go play for you.

Secondly, in exchange for Henderson we got your [2016] future 1st round pick.

We used that pick along with pick 28 and 2 later junk picks that weren't used (picks 77 and 98) to trade for pick 8, Plowman (himself a former pick 3), plus Phillips, Sumner and Lamb. Phillips was (and still is) a fine back up ruck when he isn't injured, we got some games out of Lamb and he filled a role during the rebuild before we delisted him this year, and Sumner never made it.

We used Pick 8 on Harry Mckay.

TL;DR - the trade boiled down to [Henderson and picks 28, 77, 98] for [Pick 8, Plowman, Phillips, Lamb and Sumner].

You take that deal as a rebuilding club every day of the week.

Adding list cloggers like Rhys Palmer, Jed Lamb, Liam Sumner and Darcy Lang are all decisions that, as a neutral, you scratch your head over.

On one hand you criticize us for not retaining any senior players during the rebuild.

On the other hand you criticize us for trading in senior players during the rebuild.

Those 4 players you mention cost us a grand total of Picks 58, 77, 95 and 135. Sumner, Lamb and Palmer were all salary dumps (we took on their salaries from GWS to get the players we did want - Marchbank and Plowman - for a reduced cost in trade value). We were happy to take on some senior players (and their salaries) for a year or two to get better trade deals for the players we wanted, and also to fill a few list spots for a year or two.

Dont forget, at the same time we're taking on those salaries, we're also loading up on young talent via trades and 1st round draft picks. Players traded in/ drafted over the past 3 years that remain on the list originally taken with 1st round picks include:

2015: Wietering, McKay, Curnow, Cuningham, Plowman
2016: SPS, Pickett, Marchbank
2017: Dow, O'Brien, Kennedy, Lang
2018: Walsh, Stocker, Setterfield

I think your point re development is a sound one too. I have similar concerns at Geelong. We've failed to have a host of recent young talent come on as we would have liked and saw happen back in the early 2000's. Gaining Russell is a massive win for your club.

Development for us from here is the key.

I dont give a toss about probably downgrading our future 1st with the Crows for an extra player this year. If next year we are still relying on early draft picks, and adding yet another talented kid with a low 1st rounder, then we're ****ed.

We cant keep going back to the same well. We've got the core of our list sorted; now it's all about development (getting games into them, and gelling them as a team) and supplementing the list with astute trades and FA.

 

[Jeremias]

Dodoro was taking the piss when he did that. It was a bit of byplay that went on.

Continue living in whatever fantasy world you like, but please don't try pass this off as fact.

Essendon list manager Adrian Dodoro said they were determined to not let Carlton recruit Silvagni with a later draft pick.

“I just want to keep the opposition down the road honest, that’s all,” he said.

“We weren’t going to let them get away with murder.

“The kid is a very good player in his own right and he deserved to get drafted a little higher than when he was picked.”

https://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/te...r/news-story/74d1325d41aee61e3f2fb5e1665ad74d

Yup, sure sounds like he was taking the piss.

 

[year of the cat]

Firstly, Henderson left. He was uncontracted. It was your club that convinced him to leave and go play for you.

Secondly, in exchange for Henderson we got your [2016] future 1st round pick.

We used that pick along with pick 28 and 2 later junk picks that weren't used (picks 77 and 98) to trade for pick 8, Plowman (himself a former pick 3), plus Phillips, Sumner and Lamb. Phillips was (and still is) a fine back up ruck when he isn't injured, we got some games out of Lamb and he filled a role during the rebuild before we delisted him this year, and Sumner never made it.

We used Pick 8 on Harry Mckay.

TL;DR - the trade boiled down to [Henderson and picks 28, 77, 98] for [Pick 8, Plowman, Phillips, Lamb and Sumner].

You take that deal as a rebuilding club every day of the week.

One player in isolation isn't an issue. It's the sum of losing Henderson, Tuohy, Gibbs etc. Many more were lost prior to Silvagni coming on board including Betts, Jacobs etc. It's just too many to give up without having to endure an extended period of time down there bottom of the ladder. Having lost the ones earlier, I would have thought you'd fight harder to retain the others?

On one hand you criticize us for not retaining any senior players during the rebuild.

On the other hand you criticize us for trading in senior players during the rebuild.

Those 4 players you mention cost us a grand total of Picks 58, 77, 95 and 135. Sumner, Lamb and Palmer were all salary dumps (we took on their salaries from GWS to get the players we did want - Marchbank and Plowman - for a reduced cost in trade value). We were happy to take on some senior players (and their salaries) for a year or two to get better trade deals for the players we wanted, and also to fill a few list spots for a year or two.

Dont forget, at the same time we're taking on those salaries, we're also loading up on young talent via trades and 1st round draft picks. Players traded in/ drafted over the past 3 years that remain on the list originally taken with 1st round picks include:

2015: Wietering, McKay, Curnow, Cuningham, Plowman
2016: SPS, Pickett, Marchbank
2017: Dow, O'Brien, Kennedy, Lang
2018: Walsh, Stocker, Setterfield

it's more about the quality of senior players you have brought in. All of those mentioned were never likely to flourish at another club. The only one I can think of that has provided value hasn't been mentioned and that is L.Jones.

I get that these others are "salary dump" players but they still occupy a spot on your list that could be used on someone else. Maybe careful targeting of a couple of elite types may have been more prudent? Retain some of your high picks but be prepared to trade out a few also to get some high class quality in.

Can't argue with the picks themselves too much. I know Wietering has copped a bit but I still think he should be quality. He though smacks to me of someone screaming out for guidance from a senior player. If he had a Henderson or other to work with I'm sure he wouldn't have stagnated this year. But I still think he'll be a gun.

Development for us from here is the key.

I dont give a toss about probably downgrading our future 1st with the Crows for an extra player this year. If next year we are still relying on early draft picks, and adding yet another talented kid with a low 1st rounder, then we're ******.

We cant keep going back to the same well. We've got the core of our list sorted; now it's all about development (getting games into them, and gelling them as a team) and supplementing the list with astute trades and FA.

I get that. Maybe though that next years first rounder could have been used to lure a gun senior player from another club rather than bring in a speculative kid? But as you say, development is the key. IF you can get Dow and Walsh and SPS tracking as they should then there, with Cripps, is the making of a formidable midfield. But I do think you'll need to cherry pick a player like say Mitch Duncan (to throw up someone from my club that would be suitable I think) to bring a big body into that midfield bunch.

Btw, perhaps my initial post was too strong in tone. But I just think that your club may be best served by cutting ties with Silvagni as I don't see him as having the intellect to manage a list in an increasingly professional environment.

 

[La Dispute]

As we’re all aware elite senior players are all banging down the door to get to a bottom club who’ve recently committed to a large-scale, long term rebuild.

Sounds nice in theory, but it’s wilfully optimistic.

 

[pinot]

But I just think that your club may be best served by cutting ties with Silvagni as I don't see him as having the intellect to manage a list in an increasingly professional environment.

You're a troll that is unable to understand the task at hand he has had.

From bringing in elite youth to the club with squeezing value with every assets he had on the list that includes trading average players to Geelong for 1st round picks.

We couldnt make up minimum salary cap requirements so as SOS dumped overpaid bananas to Geelong for first round picks he bought in a bunch of other hacks on short term contracts (whom are all gone) for nothing to fill up salary cap space and list spots as Cripps, Curnow, Docherty Weritering etc get paid more and Murphy, Thomas, Kreuzer Simpson get paid less.

I don't understand why his intellect is an issue when you have displayed less.

 

[Robertio]

One player in isolation isn't an issue. It's the sum of losing Henderson, Tuohy, Gibbs etc. Many more were lost prior to Silvagni coming on board including Betts, Jacobs etc. It's just too many to give up without having to endure an extended period of time down there bottom of the ladder. Having lost the ones earlier, I would have thought you'd fight harder to retain the others?




it's more about the quality of senior players you have brought in. All of those mentioned were never likely to flourish at another club. The only one I can think of that has provided value hasn't been mentioned and that is L.Jones.

I get that these others are "salary dump" players but they still occupy a spot on your list that could be used on someone else. Maybe careful targeting of a couple of elite types may have been more prudent? Retain some of your high picks but be prepared to trade out a few also to get some high class quality in.

Can't argue with the picks themselves too much. I know Wietering has copped a bit but I still think he should be quality. He though smacks to me of someone screaming out for guidance from a senior player. If he had a Henderson or other to work with I'm sure he wouldn't have stagnated this year. But I still think he'll be a gun.




I get that. Maybe though that next years first rounder could have been used to lure a gun senior player from another club rather than bring in a speculative kid? But as you say, development is the key. IF you can get Dow and Walsh and SPS tracking as they should then there, with Cripps, is the making of a formidable midfield. But I do think you'll need to cherry pick a player like say Mitch Duncan (to throw up someone from my club that would be suitable I think) to bring a big body into that midfield bunch.

Btw, perhaps my initial post was too strong in tone. But I just think that your club may be best served by cutting ties with Silvagni as I don't see him as having the intellect to manage a list in an increasingly professional environment.

As this is Big Footy everyone has an opinion right or wrong, you've been ramming you're opinion (which is wrong) down our throats for a couple of days. Why dont you give it a rest or come up with something new?

 

[year of the cat]

You're a troll that is unable to understand the task at hand he has had.

From bringing in elite youth to the club with squeezing value with every assets he had on the list that includes trading average players to Geelong for 1st round picks.

We couldnt make up minimum salary cap requirements so as SOS dumped overpaid bananas to Geelong for first round picks he bought in a bunch of other hacks on short term contracts (whom are all gone) for nothing to fill up salary cap space and list spots as Cripps, Curnow, Docherty Weritering etc get paid more and Murphy, Thomas, Kreuzer Simpson get paid less.

I don't understand why his intellect is an issue when you have displayed less.

That's right. I'm a troll that's been here since 2006.

Perhaps it's just I may, just may, have a different opinion, and a less one eyed one, than you may have? Perhaps consider that for a moment?

 

[year of the cat]

As this is Big Footy everyone has an opinion right or wrong, you've been ramming you're opinion (which is wrong) down our throats for a couple of days. Why dont you give it a rest or come up with something new?

Hardly ramming it! I've merely responded to posts. If I hadn't, then I'd be accused of throwing mud but not backing up my "opinion" with any evidence! (Btw shows your level of intelligence, or lack thereof, with that first line....)

I will give it a rest because I can't be fagged with it any more to be honest.

 

[Malifice]

One player in isolation isn't an issue. It's the sum of losing Henderson, Tuohy, Gibbs etc.

We lost Henderson, Tuohy, Gibbs. In exchange we used the currency they gave us to get in Plowman, Marchbank, OBrien, Pickett, McKay.

You keep ignoring context. That context being the state the club was in when SOS came on board in 2015.

Here is our draft haul (total, including rookies) for 2007-2014. Players Bolded are still on an AFL list (in Blue, it's with us).

2007: Kruezer, Browne, Armfield, Pfieffer, Joseph, Hill, Ellard, Shields
2008: Yarran, Robinson, Okeefe, Tiller, Johnson, Garlett, Stanton, Bentley, Jacobs
2009: Lucas, Davies, Kerr, Cachia, Dare, Casboult, White, Donaldson, Tuohy
2010: Watson, McCarthy, Mitchell, Mcinnes, Duigan, E Curnow, OKeefe, Twomey, Carter, Bray
2011: Bootsma, Rowe, Buckley, Bell, Heyne, Dale, Lodge
2012: Menzel, Temay, Graham, Cachia, Collins
2013: Cripps, Giles, Holman, Reynolds, Woods, Johnson, Sheehan, Byrne
2014: Boekhoest, Vojo-Rainbow, Smith, Foster, Tutt, Gowers, Walsh, Fields, Russell

In total, from that 8 years of drafting, we got a net result of 4 players on the list (Kruezer, Casboult, E Curnow, and Cripps) that were any good.

Can you see the state of the list as at 2015 when Silvagni came on board? We were not in a position to do anything else other than raze the joint to the ground, start all over again from ground zero and go heavily to the draft.

Many more were lost prior to Silvagni coming on board including Betts, Jacobs etc. It's just too many to give up without having to endure an extended period of time down there bottom of the ladder. Having lost the ones earlier, I would have thought you'd fight harder to retain the others?

Absolutely not. We needed to assemble a totally new list (around Docherty and Cripps), losing Gibbs, Touhy, Menzel, Bell, Yarran, Henderson netted us a swathe of early draft picks (4 extra 1st rounders plus change) and enabled us to trade in blokes like Marchbank, Plowman, Kennedy, Setterfield and so forth.

You need to retain some seniority while you go to the draft; and we kept what we could (Murphy, Kruezer, Rowe, Simpson, kept Gibbs to his contract for an extra year, Thomas, Casboult etc).

But we needed to go hard at the draft to undo 8 years of diabolical list management, and that's exactly what we did.

it's more about the quality of senior players you have brought in.

None of those senior players were brought in to do anything other than protect kids for a year or two while we continued to go hard at the draft. We took virtually all of them all in as junk picks (picks between 70-135), or as delisted free agents.

I get that these others are "salary dump" players but they still occupy a spot on your list that could be used on someone else. Maybe careful targeting of a couple of elite types may have been more prudent? Retain some of your high picks but be prepared to trade out a few also to get some high class quality in.

The problem with getting in 'elite types' is they cost you draft picks via trade. At least a first rounder, often two of them. Free Agents dont go to rebuilding clubs.

We were not in a position to trade out multiple low 1st round draft picks for 25 year old elite players.

I get that. Maybe though that next years first rounder could have been used to lure a gun senior player from another club rather than bring in a speculative kid?

It still can. We still have a first rounder next year remember.

Picks dont lure players to clubs mate; we would have the player we want to trade in stitched up well in advance of trade week.

For example, presume Kelly wants to come to us next year. We come to terms with him during the year. We offer our 2019 1st rounder (now linked to Adelaide) and our 2020 first round pick to GWS for him.

We've retained trade currency for next year. We still have a 1st round pick to throw around in a trade. Depending on the player, we might need to toss in something from 2020 as well.

But as you say, development is the key. IF you can get Dow and Walsh and SPS tracking as they should then there, with Cripps, is the making of a formidable midfield.

The core midfield 8 is now: Cripps (pick 13), Dow (pick 3), SPS (pick 6), Setterfield (pick 5), Walsh (pick 1), Stocker (pick 19), Kennedy (pick 13), Fisher (pick 27).

The talent is there, but age wise they're young. Average age is around 20. 2 x players are yet to debut (Walsh and Stocker), 1 x player is coming off his 1st year (Dow), 3 x are coming off their second year (Fisher, SPS, Setterfield), and 1 x player just finished his 3rd year (Kennedy). Two of those players have had injury interrupted starts as well (Kennedy and Setterfield). Only Cripps has been in the system longer than 3 years (and he's still young at 23).

They need time and good development.

But I do think you'll need to cherry pick a player like say Mitch Duncan (to throw up someone from my club that would be suitable I think) to bring a big body into that midfield bunch.

We'll be doing that over the next few years. Supplementing the list we've assembled over the past few years with elite talent via trades and FA (hopefully).

GWS looks good again next year with Kelly, Cognilio and Tomlinson available.

Btw, perhaps my initial post was too strong in tone. But I just think that your club may be best served by cutting ties with Silvagni as I don't see him as having the intellect to manage a list in an increasingly professional environment.

You were doing so well there, and then you post trolling tripe like that.

Says more about you than it does about SOS.

 

[Shaz2012]

We couldnt make up minimum salary cap requirements so as SOS dumped overpaid bananas to Geelong for first round picks he bought in a bunch of other hacks on short term contracts (whom are all gone) for nothing to fill up salary cap space

Wow. Don’t know whether to laugh at you or cry for you.

 

[Rich01]

not talking about where they were drafted at,or comparing the 2.what sort of player was rance in his first 3 years......how we forget

Who’s forgetting? Rance was low on confidence and was a terrible kick.
What’s that got to do with Weitering being picked at 1 before AA Oliver?

 

[Malifice]

What’s that got to do with Weitering being picked at 1 before AA Oliver?

Whats that got to do with this thread you clown?

Youve made a name for yourself trolling Carlton in every thread linked to us, and generally being a pest.

Cut it out.

 

[Rich01]

Whats that got to do with this thread you clown?

Youve made a name for yourself trolling Carlton in every thread linked to us, and generally being a pest.

Cut it out.

Read the entire context clown.
Look back to my original post on this thread. It mentions stocker and Walsh being safe mid pics as they generally perform better than high ranked talls and sos went tall in 2015.
It’s carlton supporters bringing up rance and Tambling in this thread which you conveniently overlook.