List Mgmt. List Management 2022

[King Cripps]

Oh and if we get less than a top 30 pick for Dow, we need to pack it in.

Whatever draft pick the Weagles gave us last year for SPS, Dow wil be around the same vicinity as a pick around 50ish

 

[FRUMPY]

Everyone on the list to go on a diet and no more weight room

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[Jimmae]

I have no problems with opinions mate and we are all searching for answers after a horrid finish to the season. To me we need an accurate medium sized forward next to Harry and Charlie that can nail a goal from 50m. Currently we don’t have that option and Fisher is not a full time forward.

There are a few options out there but the player in the Bruest mould is exactly what we need. Can we get him most likely not but it is the the target we should be aiming for I reckon.

Ok, and I'm saying focus more on Owies and Fisher, and perhaps leave a midfield rotation role there in the forward structure. We've got plenty of taller mids who could do exactly what you're asking for.

Why would we agree to triggers for a guy who would have had zero leverage when negotiating?

Because we're not as smart as we think we are.

Criticising a game plan that despite so many outs sees Carlton as being genuinely competitive and but for the same type of nonfootball brain players as Dow- the team should be playing finals - I mean losing to both a fully manned Melbourne ( sans Hewett and Kennedy) in the last minute and then losing to a fully manned Collingwood - again in the last minute with all of Walsh/Hewett and Kennedy out - sorry I'm not interested in hearing how dumb Voss and Co are - they are MASSIVE cover achievers with the injury hands they have been dealt all year.

but for the sake of discussion - lets pretend your views have merit...so

Name a team that would play Dow as a starting mid Jim. Name a system that is so different to Carlton's that it would benefit from Dow's abilities and traits and the discussion becomes a tad more grounded.

Our team became ultra-defensive in the second half of the season, which is how we kept defending well but our scoring dried up.

But to answer your key question: Collingwood, Dogs, Geelong, Sydney, Hawthorn, Lions, Richmond, Essendon, West Coast, North Melbourne.

He is different to what we have in our side.provides X factor,speed and finished 4th on our goal kicking.

What more would like him to do?

Kick more than 18 goals as a forward, or be involved more in scoring chains and delivering the football if he's a midfielder, and it's equal 6th when you switch to average. 4th for scoring involvements when that's basically his entire role. That slides back to 7th when you switch to average score involvements per match.

Mid-tier for goal assists per game. Second half of the season was better, but still goes missing when the heat goes up. Right now, we can sell him high, and bring in a better attacking midfielder, or a better small or medium forward... or just open up a rotation spot in the forward line to use an extra genuine mid all game.

Weirdly, after only a couple games I think Boyd is comfortably our best pure small defender.

Suspect he is our best kick out of the bunch too but butchered a few early with nerves. Not that there is much competition..I love Doc and Saad but kicking is not their strength (though Saad was probably better this year in general than past years). Stocker is supposed to be an elite kick but probably the worst at the club at the moment. Haven't seen a player nearly miss his own boot streaming out of defence as much as him.

I think Boyd, when we have best 22 playing, could be potentially be an elite small defender.

Think we might have an all-Australian nod that flies in the face of your theory.

 

[DangerousD]

I don't feel he is genuinely worse than Kennedy or Setterfield, he's just lost confidence in his role* at the club, and he's not what Voss wants in his system as things stand. I think he's a fool for doing that, but you've got to look what players in his list position typically go for, and that's a low first to mid second.

If we can't get that and turn it into a genuine difference maker, we need to retain him. The coaches should be trying to figure out how to use elite acceleration from the contest (hint: it's not difficult), and the fitness staff should be given input on how that can be best executed while maintain defensive running requirements.

EDIT: clarified comments

What players in a similar position are you referring to, that get a late first, early second round pick?

 

[chuncey]

Everyone on the list to go on a diet and no more weight room

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Liam Baker 72kg

 

[Jimmae]

What players in a similar position are you referring to, that get a late first, early second round pick?

Jack Steele, Kennedy.

 

[DangerousD]

Do people not think Martin has the scope to try and play that Breust like role? Not saying he will be anywhere near as good but if healthy I think he can provide 30 goals.

Im not a fan of Jack Martin as many might know, but I don’t understand how anyone can think Martin can be the l,Ayer you have stated in your post above.

Jack Martin has played 9 seasons of AFL football, in those 9 seasons, he has kicked more than 14 goals in a year, once and that was 6 years ago.

Jack Martins output is on par, just, with first year players.

 

[Arr0w]

Right now, Dow wouldn't be a starting 3 mid in any team

 

[DangerousD]

Jack Steele, Kennedy.

Im not sure how you are seeing Kennedys trade to Carlton as being comparable to Dow. Kennedy was a first round draftee, who was traded two years after he was drafted, when his value was high, he was coming off a season where he averaged 17 possessions.

Dow has played 5 years.

Steele also traded after 2 seasons.

If we traded Dow two years ago, I agree with your logic.

 

[RAPPA]

Right now, Dow wouldn't be a starting 3 mid in any team

But worth a second round pick somehow.

 

[JustaBattler]

....

Our team became ultra-defensive in the second half of the season, which is how we kept defending well but our scoring dried up.

But to answer your key question: Collingwood, Dogs, Geelong, Sydney, Hawthorn, Lions, Richmond, Essendon, West Coast, North Melbourne.

Well based on your analysis (above) - the good news is that he will have a bunch of suitors lining up to get Dow on board - since crazy Vossy is clueless about it takes to be a good midfielder- I mean yeah - wtf would he know about midfield play eh?

 

[Blues_1864]

Think that you might be wrong about Cerra. If you take the Essendon game out (where he was subbed off very early) he averaged about 25 touches per game , an area of his game that really impressed me was his tackling with just shy of five per game. This despite a bout of covid and another injury in a brand new team for a 22 year old. He had 30 touches or more 4 times and 25 or more another 5 times. Reckon his season was far better than one or two decent games.

If he goes 10% better next year, which would be reasonable expectation , that would be a great year.

Cerra's two real standout games were Round 1 and Round 23, and as others have noted, those are the two games Walsh missed. Perhaps it suggests we need to look at those roles; Cerra played a more accountable defensive role when Walsh was in the team, but in general, Walsh wasn't hurting the opposition much with the possessions he was getting, especially as the season wore on - seemed to spend a lot of time hacking it foward to his direct opponent, loose across half-back.

I am not the first to note that Cerra looks far better when he is creating play; touch-by-touch, more effective than Walsh. I don't think we can afford to continue with Walsh running around playing see-ball-get-ball like he did through the second half of this year; he needs to either use it much better, or else play proper wing, keep his width, halve his disposals, and use his endurance to actually enhance our transition. At the moment he is betwixt and between.

 

[Arr0w]

Well based on your analysis (above) - the good news is that he will have a bunch of suitors lining up to get Dow on board - since crazy Vossy is clueless about it takes to be a good midfielder- I mean yeah - wtf would he know about midfield play eh?

Dow would be a starting mid at the Pies, Dog, Cats, Swans, Lions? FMD

 

[Arr0w]

WC Mids, Sheed, Shuey, Kelly, Yeo

Who does Dow push out of that quartet

 

[JustaBattler]

Dow would be a starting mid at the Pies, Dog, Cats, Swans, Lions? FMD

I think Jimmae is takin the pizz - BG TIME

 

[Justnetime]

What about Norf for Dow. Clarko might do a crazy Vossy.

 

[Arr0w]

I think Jimmae is takin the pizz - BG TIME

The way he has talked Dow up all year, i fear he actually believes it

 

[katmanblue]

It was in response to your "cant play a full season, never has, never will" commentary.
He has a couple of times , who knows if he will again.

The 'never has' was hyperbole.

The point of the post stands.

He's unlikely to play a full season going forward.

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[JustaBattler]

The way he has talked Dow up all year, i fear he actually believes it

Who is Dow going to replace at Sydney- Kennedy?

 

[JustaBattler]

What about Norf for Dow. Clarko might do a crazy Vossy.

Name a skinny runt who can't tackle who has ever played in a Clarko on ball brigade- just one.

 

[Arr0w]

Who is Dow going to replace at Sydney- Kennedy?

Well, Warner, Rowbottom, Parrker, Mills, with rotations of Papley, Gulden, Heeney

 

[JustaBattler]

Well, Warner, Rowbottom, Parrker, Mills, with rotations of Papley, Gulden, Heeney

Kennedy/Hewett and Walsh out - and Dow still doesn't get a run....

just think about that for a sec.

 

[Jimmae]

Im not sure how you are seeing Kennedys trade to Carlton as being comparable to Dow. Kennedy was a first round draftee, who was traded two years after he was drafted, when his value was high, he was coming off a season where he averaged 17 possessions.

Dow has played 5 years.

Steele also traded after 2 seasons.

If we traded Dow two years ago, I agree with your logic.

Kennedy came to us with a significant injury history, including pre-draft. He also came to us with a lower output than Dow, and was playing as a slow, meandering half-forward.

Steele was also struggling to get inside midfield time and his output suffered. I'm not really seeing the significant difference.

Dow is not the basket case like Brodie was, for example.

Well based on your analysis (above) - the good news is that he will have a bunch of suitors lining up to get Dow on board - since crazy Vossy is clueless about it takes to be a good midfielder- I mean yeah - wtf would he know about midfield play eh?

Yes, he would feature in a number of midfield rotations that want a good release option, or want to block a smidge to release players from the stoppage on foot. He's also something of a centre bounce specialist in a league where most teams either wind up at 50/50 across a season as they get figured out, or control how the opposition clear that stoppage in order to turn the ball over and take advantage on the counter-attack.

I really don't give a shit about Voss' playing pedigree. Football's changed a lot since then. I care about how he's able to understand the game now, implement strategies in both setting up an intelligent and robust style of play, and then counteract the opposition.

So far I've seen a coach that cares way too much about moving around chess pieces to counter the opposition, than figuring out how the team can work together to pressure, intercept, and then move the ball.

Cerra's two real standout games were Round 1 and Round 23, and as others have noted, those are the two games Walsh missed. Perhaps it suggests we need to look at those roles; Cerra played a more accountable defensive role when Walsh was in the team, but in general, Walsh wasn't hurting the opposition much with the possessions he was getting, especially as the season wore on - seemed to spend a lot of time hacking it foward to his direct opponent, loose across half-back.

I am not the first to note that Cerra looks far better when he is creating play; touch-by-touch, more effective than Walsh. I don't think we can afford to continue with Walsh running around playing see-ball-get-ball like he did through the second half of this year; he needs to either use it much better, or else play proper wing, keep his width, halve his disposals, and use his endurance to actually enhance our transition. At the moment he is betwixt and between.

I don't think his disposals would halve, but he definitely needs to move outside more.

And yes, both he and Cripps need to learn to trust their team mates more, and everyone needs to run with each other more to shepherd, block, and provide a cleaner option.

 

[Arr0w]

Kennedy/Hewett and Walsh out - and Dow still doesn't get a run....

just think about that for a sec.

As I said, Dow wouldn't be a starting 3 mid in any side at the moment

 

[Jimmae]

Kennedy/Hewett and Walsh out - and Dow still doesn't get a run....

just think about that for a sec.

Neither did Setterfield, and that was clearly a poor move to hold back from for over a month.

No one's talking about him being a top 3 midfielder for anyone, just that he's getting centre bounce looks, and stoppage looks. The idea that he's too daft to rotate between that and a lead-up role from HF is ludicrous.

We play dumb, slow football, and have for years now. This year, we finally went beyond 'only when the opposition is feeble' to 'feeble or they get tricked into not defending the corridor'.