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Marc Murphy advises Paddy Dow to seek another club- I like it

 
Jim you lose credibility when you say Marchbank DOES have the ability to run back but Doc doesn’t.

There isn’t a distance or run event that Marchy would beat Doc in. 5m sprint. 10m. 20m. 100m. 400m. 800m. 2km. Repeat sprints.

I mean maybe steeplechase.
I wasn't seeing that from Docherty this season, as when he went on long sprints he too often looked all arms and legs, especially when running forward. Maybe it's age, maybe it's the knee, maybe it's the physical toll of the chemo catching up with him when he really pushes his body, but it just wasn't there.

Docherty in his AA form? You're right, no question.
Jimmae give me something on Liam Stocker. He missed 4 months of the preseason with his syndesmosis. He looks too big to me (I don’t mean fat) and could shed some muscle and lose no toughness I reckon.

Could he be our Brandon Starcevich and if so what physically does he need to do? I hypothesise massive reduction in weight training, calorie deficit to lose 3-5kg, huge amounts of agility work and repeat sprints. Lots of plyometrics.

Discuss.
Reduce the strength training, maybe a slight caloric reduction, but the training focus has to become about a more economical running technique when he needs to track to positions on the ground rather than his technique for ballistic sprints. I agree, he is too big to be a running defender, and I'd still want a mobility shift from him if he went into the middle. Suspect that while he might look lean, there might be some central adiposity that's proving tough to move.

Conditioning work on the related muscles to support the joints in doing so. Right now when he's jogging to position it just looks very pronounced and emphasised, like a horse trot in an equestrian event, not someone who knows how to pace themselves through a game. Focusing on integrated agility training would help too.

I actually wanted Starcevich in his draft year, but he shot up the charts late and almost went top 20.
 
I wasn't seeing that from Docherty this season, as when he went on long sprints he too often looked all arms and legs, especially when running forward. Maybe it's age, maybe it's the knee, maybe it's the physical toll of the chemo catching up with him when he really pushes his body, but it just wasn't there.

Docherty in his AA form? You're right, no question.

Reduce the strength training, maybe a slight caloric reduction, but the training focus has to become about a more economical running technique when he needs to track to positions on the ground rather than his technique for ballistic sprints. I agree, he is too big to be a running defender, and I'd still want a mobility shift from him if he went into the middle. Suspect that while he might look lean, there might be some central adiposity that's proving tough to move.

Conditioning work on the related muscles to support the joints in doing so. Right now when he's jogging to position it just looks very pronounced and emphasised, like a horse trot in an equestrian event, not someone who knows how to pace themselves through a game. Focusing on integrated agility training would help too.


I actually wanted Starcevich in his draft year, but he shot up the charts late and almost went top 20.
I'm sorry, but I completely disagree with this.

  • Why would Strength training need to be reduced to lower his body weight?
    Body weight will be influenced directly by whether or not the athlete is in a caloric deficit or not. If he is in a caloric deficit, he will lose weight. If he is not, he will maintain. If he is in a surplus, he will gain weight.

    How on earth would the reduction in workload with a slight caloric reduction yield anything but a neutral result?

  • Too big to be a running defender? He's 86kg and just under 6'1. There are plenty of athletes in the competition who have insane cardio regardless of their size. It's largely irrelevant. Nik Cox would beat Zac Fisher in a 2km TT for example.

  • "Central adiposity" ???????????? He is ripped as hell through the midsection? Have you seen what Newman looks like with his top off? Newman barely looks like an athlete, yet he is a high performance machine who can run all day. Unless he was genuinely fat, it would not affect his ability to perform. Anyway, not a problem for Stocker who is seen sporting a six-pack year round..

I'm an experienced strength athlete who has a friend who works in the Strength and Conditioning dept. for a big Melbourne based club. I look at Stocker and think he is one of the most gifted on our team, second to maybe Cripps or McKay in terms of his ability to pack on contractile tissue. His muscle mass and level of bodyfat is of no concern to me. Dustin Martin and JDG are similar dimensions but instead of lean muscle, they have fat. Neither of them are negatively influenced by this either. Luke Hodge is probably the most similar to Stock but even he pales in comparison to Stockers body composition.
 

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Voss would just play him on the wing,100 metres from goal, like our other small forwards.
But I've liked Cahill all season, smart and has a good goal radar.
Only thing I don't like about Cahill is how his name is pronounced. Commentators say (presumably on his confirmation) that is name is effectively "Carl" - it's "Cay-hill".
 
Marc Murphy advises Paddy Dow to seek another club- I like it



Agree it be would best outcome for both parties, Paddy would get a fresh start, perhaps kick start his career and we get some compensation, far better than zilch, another empty & unproductive year and hell be worthless in a possible trade exchange.
 
Agree it be would best outcome for both parties, Paddy would get a fresh start, perhaps kick start his career and we get some compensation, far better than zilch, another empty & unproductive year and hell be worthless in a possible trade exchange.
agreed but correct me if i'm wrong but isn't it sort of a bad look for a club champ that only retired 12 months ago to publicly urge on a currently contracted player to request a trade elsewhere?
 
Wow...I was wondering who 'Carl' was when watching the game. Thanks for clearing this up.
It's an Irish name. Multiple pronunciations: Karl, Kahl, Kayl, Kar-hill, Kay-hill. In Australia tend to hear the "Karl" version, such as with the Cahill Expressway in Sydney. "Kay-hill" is more American, "Kar-hill" British. But you'll find all versions everywhere (e.g. Tim Kay-hill). Common Irish version is sort of like a "Kairhhl" sound.

Same as Mahoney. Americans will say "Ma-hoe-knee". Here it's "Marni".

As for Ned Cahill, it's however he and his family pronounce it. Can only assume the commentators have done their homework!
 
I'm sorry, but I completely disagree with this.

  • Why would Strength training need to be reduced to lower his body weight?
    Body weight will be influenced directly by whether or not the athlete is in a caloric deficit or not. If he is in a caloric deficit, he will lose weight. If he is not, he will maintain. If he is in a surplus, he will gain weight. How on earth would the reduction in workload with a slight caloric reduction yield anything but a neutral result?
It's never been as simple as calories in, calories out. Human metabolism is about a lot more than the energy exchange from breaking apart compounds. An endocrine-based model tends to make more sense, but it's also not something that you can write down on a postage stamp to hand to someone to implement.

Strength training reduction is to reduce joint inflammation and requirements for muscle repair so he can perform more running-related work, which is something I come to later in the very same post.
  • Too big to be a running defender? He's 86kg and just under 6'1. There are plenty of athletes in the competition who have insane cardio regardless of their size. It's largely irrelevant. Nik Cox would beat Zac Fisher in a 2km TT for example.
Correct, but I'm referring to him specifically, though I did not specify in writing. He is too currently too big (or too imbalanced) to play in a more mobile fashion. He's unlikely to magically become a better endurance athlete any time soon without making changes.
  • "Central adiposity" ???????????? He is ripped as hell through the midsection? Have you seen what Newman looks like with his top off? Newman barely looks like an athlete, yet he is a high performance machine who can run all day. Unless he was genuinely fat, it would not affect his ability to perform. Anyway, not a problem for Stocker who is seen sporting a six-pack year round..
Visceral fat. Newman is not a particularly good endurance runner by the way, and having visible fat stores isn't much of indication of aerobic fitness, especially given that's what you'd be burning through during an endurance event.

In the right amount, it might prove to be advantageous, but that's subject to cardiovascular health, the applied joint stress, inherent fat metabolism, etc.
I'm an experienced strength athlete who has a friend who works in the Strength and Conditioning dept. for a big Melbourne based club. I look at Stocker and think he is one of the most gifted on our team, second to maybe Cripps or McKay in terms of his ability to pack on contractile tissue. His muscle mass and level of bodyfat is of no concern to me. Dustin Martin and JDG are similar dimensions but instead of lean muscle, they have fat. Neither of them are negatively influenced by this either. Luke Hodge is probably the most similar to Stock but even he pales in comparison to Stockers body composition.
I think you're forgetting how much Hodge slimmed down in the second half of his career. He got plenty lean.

I agree that Stocker can pack on the muscle, but I think it's reached a point where it's hampering his functional movement and potential output in the AFL. He needs to think very carefully about how he wants to build up his body from hereon, and to build up his aerobic fitness and jogging technique alongside this.

That was the concern from multiple clubs when he was going through the draft process.
 
It's never been as simple as calories in, calories out. Human metabolism is about a lot more than the energy exchange from breaking apart compounds. An endocrine-based model tends to make more sense, but it's also not something that you can write down on a postage stamp to hand to someone to implement.

Strength training reduction is to reduce joint inflammation and requirements for muscle repair so he can perform more running-related work, which is something I come to later in the very same post.

Correct, but I'm referring to him specifically, though I did not specify in writing. He is too currently too big (or too imbalanced) to play in a more mobile fashion. He's unlikely to magically become a better endurance athlete any time soon without making changes.

Visceral fat. Newman is not a particularly good endurance runner by the way, and having visible fat stores isn't much of indication of aerobic fitness, especially given that's what you'd be burning through during an endurance event.

In the right amount, it might prove to be advantageous, but that's subject to cardiovascular health, the applied joint stress, inherent fat metabolism, etc.

I think you're forgetting how much Hodge slimmed down in the second half of his career. He got plenty lean.

I agree that Stocker can pack on the muscle, but I think it's reached a point where it's hampering his functional movement and potential output in the AFL. He needs to think very carefully about how he wants to build up his body from hereon, and to build up his aerobic fitness and jogging technique alongside this.

That was the concern from multiple clubs when he was going through the draft process.
I appreciate your effort in trying to explain what you were trying to say but I couldn’t read beyond your first paragraph.

It IS as simple as calories in calories out for weight loss and weight gain. You cannot defy the laws of thermodynamics. I’m not sure what black magic you think the endocrine system can produce but it certainly cannot break the laws of thermodynamics. Yes, every human has different caloric needs and the endocrine system has some responsibility in defining these but inevitably weight loss and weight gain is entirely attributed to your energy balance. I.e. calories in versus calories out
 
agreed but correct me if i'm wrong but isn't it sort of a bad look for a club champ that only retired 12 months ago to publicly urge on a currently contracted player to request a trade elsewhere?
He's working on abc radio and is very good, considered in his opinions and still bleeds blue (-was talking about how gutted he was this week as a carlton supporter).

He was asked his opinion about Dow and offered it.

Just curious as to how long you think a statute of limitations applies on ex footballers talking about their old clubs once they join the media?
 
I appreciate your effort in trying to explain what you were trying to say but I couldn’t read beyond your first paragraph.

It IS as simple as calories in calories out for weight loss and weight gain. You cannot defy the laws of thermodynamics. I’m not sure what black magic you think the endocrine system can produce but it certainly cannot break the laws of thermodynamics. Yes, every human has different caloric needs and the endocrine system has some responsibility in defining these but inevitably weight loss and weight gain is entirely attributed to your energy balance. I.e. calories in versus calories out
The human body is a very efficient thing, but it is not perfectly efficient, nor is it perfectly mechanically efficient. It is not as simple as calories in, calories out. Thermodynamics applies, but calorie estimates for foods do not wholly explain what the organisms involved seek from food.

Coke got in trouble for actually suggesting energy balance is the gold standard, and creating scientific bodies to push that theory in academic publishing. They used it to try and sell soda to people and got shot to pieces once it was figured out.

There are people who struggle to put on weight no matter what you feed them, and there are people who struggle to lose it no matter what you do. They can be the same height, weight and largely look the same, but you will see substantial variance under the same environmental conditions. This cannot be explained solely by one of genetics, biochemistry, epigenetics, or microbiome.

It is an enormously complex system that combines all of that and more. I don't give a shit what 4 lecture slides you saw once in a unit of your coursework that said otherwise. To believe it can all be summarised in simple arithmetic is staggeringly arrogant, particularly if all you do is count macros without any regard for protein quality, balance & insulin impact, fat quality and balance, carbohydrate timing & insulin impact, and some micronutrients.

I mean I literally just showed you with a basic nutritional break down how it's not just entirely about caloric work. Moving into the future, personalised medicine and personalised diet will lead to lower training requirements for elite performance, as well as more optimal output for any given task.

Human beings - particularly in the context of modern mass manufacture of food that takes very little of this kind of thinking into account - can stand to run a lot more optimally outside of burst performance in young, healthy adults. The last 10-20 years of health data can tell you that.
 
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He's working on abc radio and is very good, considered in his opinions and still bleeds blue (-was talking about how gutted he was this week as a carlton supporter).

He was asked his opinion about Dow and offered it.

Just curious as to how long you think a statute of limitations applies on ex footballers talking about their old clubs once they join the media?
yes but shouldn't murph also channel some of that energy into encouraging dowy to become a better, more complete footballer and take his oppurtunites that he's given at the club he is contracted to and was drafted no.3 overall...
 

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The human body is a very efficient thing, but it is not perfectly efficient, nor is it perfectly mechanically efficient. It is not as simple as calories in, calories out. Thermodynamics applies, but calorie estimates for foods do not wholly explain what the organisms involved seek from food.

Coke got in trouble for actually suggesting energy balance is the gold standard, and creating scientific bodies to push that theory in academic publishing. They used it to try and sell soda to people and got shot to pieces once it was figured out.

There are people who struggle to put on weight no matter what you feed them, and there are people who struggle to lose it no matter what you do. They can be the same height, weight and largely look the same, but you will see substantial variance under the same environmental conditions. This cannot be explained solely by one of genetics, biochemistry, epigenetics, or microbiome.

It is an enormously complex system that combines all of that and more. I don't give a s**t what 4 lecture slides you saw once in a unit of your coursework that said otherwise. To believe it can all be summarised in simple arithmetic is staggeringly arrogant, particularly if all you do is count macros without any regard for protein quality, balance & insulin impact, fat quality and balance, carbohydrate timing & insulin impact, and some micronutrients.

I mean I literally just showed you with a basic nutritional break down how it's not just entirely about caloric work. Moving into the future, personalised medicine and personalised diet will lead to lower training requirements for elite performance, as well as more optimal output for any given task.

Human beings - particularly in the context of modern mass manufacture of food that takes very little of this kind of thinking into account - can stand to run a lot more optimally outside of burst performance in young, healthy adults. The last 10-20 years of health data can tell you that.
Body composition is not entirely about calories in and calories out but body weight certainly is. It's very, VERY basic nutritional science and your failure to understand that coupled with the aggression in your post is evidence enough to me that you do not know what you are talking about.

btw, this - is bullshit
There are people who struggle to put on weight no matter what you feed them, and there are people who struggle to lose it no matter what you do.
 
I mean if you look at the original post, I open with 'here's my radical plan'.

We need more genuine run from defence, and we also need defensive run there to cover our backsides when we both press up and make some overlap runs.

Docherty just doesn't have that continual acceleration to cover mistakes any more. Mitch and Marchbank do, Saad and Williams too, but if we lose one of Mitch, Saad, or Williams, the cupboard's bare in the reserves, and that's something that can be tactically picked apart on the counter.

If people have someone in the 22-28 bracket that has similar or better traits than Wilson for cheap, I'm all ears. Perhaps there's someone in the draft and we can focus on playing the rest of the FA/ND pool for talent.
Ability to score from turn overs remains our biggest weakness. I think this is a sensible perspective. It may also be related to wings. Turn over in front half has improved but was inconsistent this year too.
 
Body composition is not entirely about calories in and calories out but body weight certainly is. It's very, VERY basic nutritional science and your failure to understand that coupled with the aggression in your post is evidence enough to me that you do not know what you are talking about.
Aggressive? You flippantly ignored 90% of my post.

Also, when did this become about weight loss through dietary deficit? That was never my argument, though I seem to have skipped over you representing my argument that way. Energy balance still doesn't completely explain this trajectory, particularly if heavily oversimplified.
btw, this - is bullshit
There are people who struggle to put on weight no matter what you feed them, and there are people who struggle to lose it no matter what you do.
Key word here is 'struggle'. I did not write 'impossible'. You will see variance.

You might want to take your elite academic and practical experience and go check out a metabollic ward sometime.
 
yes but shouldn't murph also channel some of that energy into encouraging dowy to become a better, more complete footballer and take his oppurtunites that he's given at the club he is contracted to and was drafted no.3 overall...

Why? We're not paying Murphy to publicly cuddle our players. He's being paid by a media organisation to offer his views, and has done so. It's not exactly a hot take, either, Dow performed pretty well all year in the ressies, and barely got a look-in despite multiple injuries to our starting midfield group. The longer he's stuck in the VFL, the less appealing he becomes to another club.

Tin foil hat on - maybe the club would quietly prefer it if Dow requested a trade, and Murphy is actually pushing our agenda for us...
 
Aggressive? You flippantly ignored 90% of my post.

Also, when did this become about weight loss through dietary deficit? That was never my argument, though I seem to have skipped over you representing my argument that way. Energy balance still doesn't completely explain this trajectory, particularly if heavily oversimplified.

Key word here is 'struggle'. I did not write 'impossible'. You will see variance.

You might want to take your elite academic and practical experience and go check out a metabollic ward sometime.
Jim, it’s best we drop this. I am not going to agree with anything you have to say on this topic. Happy to enter other discussions with you but I disagree with you on this about as strongly as I possibly could.
 
Why? We're not paying Murphy to publicly cuddle our players. He's being paid by a media organisation to offer his views, and has done so. It's not exactly a hot take, either, Dow performed pretty well all year in the ressies, and barely got a look-in despite multiple injuries to our starting midfield group. The longer he's stuck in the VFL, the less appealing he becomes to another club.

Tin foil hat on - maybe the club would quietly prefer it if Dow requested a trade, and Murphy is actually pushing our agenda for us...
I agree with you 100% Palle_blu except the club pushing the agenda. Although not outside the realms of possibility, I believe they would first talk to Dow direct rather than starting rumours in the media.
 
Jim, it’s best we drop this. I am not going to agree with anything you have to say on this topic. Happy to enter other discussions with you but I disagree with you on this about as strongly as I possibly could.
I strongly encourage you to enquire about this with the related club professionals and their academic and industry circles. There is a knowledge gap that exists amongst practitioners today, and you're showing it here.

It may not have significant import for you today, given you work with largely healthy and similar athletes, but it might help afford more capable and resilient elite performance in the future.
 
agreed but correct me if i'm wrong but isn't it sort of a bad look for a club champ that only retired 12 months ago to publicly urge on a currently contracted player to request a trade elsewhere?

He was happy for the club to gift him games at the end of his career though.....got to sell all that 300 game merchandise they've already paid for
 
yes but shouldn't murph also channel some of that energy into encouraging dowy to become a better, more complete footballer and take his oppurtunites that he's given at the club he is contracted to and was drafted no.3 overall...
Not really. As a paid member of the media he was asked "what do you see as the future for Paddy Dow"?

He answered as he saw fit. If he was still on our payroll then he has obligations. He isn't and he doesn't.
 
Body composition is not entirely about calories in and calories out but body weight certainly is. It's very, VERY basic nutritional science and your failure to understand that coupled with the aggression in your post is evidence enough to me that you do not know what you are talking about.

btw, this - is bullshit
There are people who struggle to put on weight no matter what you feed them, and there are people who struggle to lose it no matter what you do.
The bolded is not true. Some people may have higher or lower metabolic bases that mean they need to eat more or less than they 'think' they need to. But there is not a person alive who struggles to put on weight who simply isn't eating enough.
 
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