Multiculturalism - Should we change for others, or should they change for us?

[bmwofoz]

First, I'm 110% against Muliticutluralism.
Second,I'm 110% in favour of a boardbased Immigration Program.
Third,I'm 110% accepting of different between different enthic groups.

Mulitcutluralism is solely an excuse for a Government Department. No two people on this Planet are totally the same, nor should we expect it.

Every person has Hopes,Likes and Dislikes, the First Generalration allways has it hard to start with, but over time become Mainstream, the Asians are a grweat exsample, its nothing to see an Asian Accountant, or Cafe owned by an Asian, this has nothing to do with Muiltcultralism or Assimilation.

it just happen though these Asian communities taking the opportunity that are there, for those who are prepared to work hard, guess what, I suspect they still when away from Work, follow whatever type of Lifestyle, that they brought with them.

Ofcourse if a person comes to Australia, they should learn English, more to enhance their Life opportunities, but English is a very differicult thing to Learn, and there are many Born here, that have a hard time with it.

There as been most written about Road signs, and there has been one very important point overlooked, most Road signs have Universal symbols, meaning, they are simular the word over, a good exsample is found on Toilet doors.

 

[CharlieG]

Yep you show an obvious bias that I am ring-wing because of my view that people moving into a country (again not just into Australia) should know the language of that country, when you couldn't be further from the truth.

You may not consider yourself to be right-wing, and perhaps in a lot of policy areas you aren't.

Yet whether you realise it or not, your attitude to multiculturalism is rooted in populist, reactionary identity politics. Since the overwhelming majority of populist, reactionary policies in Australia are right-wing, I used that term to describe what (and who) I'm talking about.

 

[CharlieG]

Charlie, cut the crxp. How can you possibly argue that its populist,ignorant and prejudiced to argue that migrants should be fluent in English? There are clear economic reasons for this (leaving aside obvious social issues). Is there any valid economic reason to let illiterate people in to the country? No there isnt. They come at a net economic cost to the country.

Always freakin' economics. One day, Med, I'll succeed in introducing you to something I call 'humanitarianism'.

Recent action by the "liberal" Dutch. Bunch of rednecks are they? The Danes have done similar as well. They rednecks as well? Turkey and Tunisia, rapidly anti muslim?

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2089-1827632_2,00.html

The Dutch do a lot of things I like, as do the Danes. Yet they are not immune to bad policy. Why should they be?

“Dutchness test” requires immigrants to take classes in language and culture
Imams accused of promoting terrorism are expelled
Residency permits of immigrants accused of petty crime can be revoked
Visas for young brides marrying into closed immigrant communities will be reduced

So because the Dutch and Danes do it, we should. Yeah, I'll make that trade... if you're willing to keep playing Simon says, and adopt European social democratic fiscal policy. Or is it only 'good for the goose, good for the gander' when you happen to like the alternative policy?

France and several regions of Germany have followed Turkey and Tunisia in banning the wearing of the hijab, which leaves the face visible, in public buildings, most controversially in schools.

As a thread grows longer, the probability of Medusala criticising the French approaches one.

With apologies to Mike Godwin.

Seriously, all of these are simply further examples of my point. That is, that attempts at repressing multiculturalism are simply a right-wing communitarian backlash against inclusive national identities.

 

[PA HOG]

First, I'm 110% against Muliticutluralism.
Second,I'm 110% in favour of a boardbased Immigration Program.
Third,I'm 110% accepting of different between different enthic groups.

Mulitcutluralism is solely an excuse for a Government Department. No two people on this Planet are totally the same, nor should we expect it.

Every person has Hopes,Likes and Dislikes, the First Generalration allways has it hard to start with, but over time become Mainstream, the Asians are a grweat exsample, its nothing to see an Asian Accountant, or Cafe owned by an Asian, this has nothing to do with Muiltcultralism or Assimilation.

it just happen though these Asian communities taking the opportunity that are there, for those who are prepared to work hard, guess what, I suspect they still when away from Work, follow whatever type of Lifestyle, that they brought with them.

Ofcourse if a person comes to Australia, they should learn English, more to enhance their Life opportunities, but English is a very differicult thing to Learn, and there are many Born here, that have a hard time with it.

There as been most written about Road signs, and there has been one very important point overlooked, most Road signs have Universal symbols, meaning, they are simular the word over, a good exsample is found on Toilet doors.

Do you drive a taxi?

 

[bmwofoz]

Do you drive a taxi?

No, but whats the point.

I will add that I on purpose made several spelling mistakes.

 

[Monkster]

You may not consider yourself to be right-wing, and perhaps in a lot of policy areas you aren't.

Yet whether you realise it or not, your attitude to multiculturalism is rooted in populist, reactionary identity politics. Since the overwhelming majority of populist, reactionary policies in Australia are right-wing, I used that term to describe what (and who) I'm talking about.

My opinion on people speaking English has nothing to do with people keeping their own cultures, I'm all for migrants keeping their culture, but when it conflicts with our existing culture something has to give and unfortunatly for me that means their culture not ours. I'm sorry if that's racist but don't you think it makes sense?

 

[bmwofoz]

Being against Mulitcutluriam, doesn't make you Right Wing, afterall the ALP and there Union supporters backed the White Australia Policy for some 67 years, until Whitlam removed it from the Party platfrom, it nearly cost him the Leadership.

 

[CharlieG]

My opinion on people speaking English has nothing to do with people keeping their own cultures, I'm all for migrants keeping their culture, but when it conflicts with our existing culture something has to give and unfortunatly for me that means their culture not ours. I'm sorry if that's racist but don't you think it makes sense?

Monkster. Perhaps you should think about exactly why this is an issue. Let me start the ball rolling. An 'issue' is never a neutral concept. It is selected, produced and refined by political influences before it becomes an issue for public debate.

Once this is recognised, we can no longer accept what seems to be a 'common sense' or natural viewpoint - such as 'people who can't speak English can't drive in Australia'. What we need to do is examine where the issue comes from, and who makes it one. Why is it 'common sense'?

Once these questions are answered, the 'issue' can be unravelled, and seen for what it really is. In this case, doing so pretty much blows the 'my opinion has nothing to do with people keeping their own cultures' claim out of the water.

 

[CharlieG]

Being against Mulitcutluriam, doesn't make you Right Wing, afterall the ALP and there Union supporters backed the White Australia Policy for some 67 years, until Whitlam removed it from the Party platfrom, it nearly cost him the Leadership.

The ALP has been right-wing since the 40s at the very least, and some would argue for much longer than that... and it has always been a populist party.

 

[Monkster]

Monkster. Perhaps you should think about exactly why this is an issue. Let me start the ball rolling. An 'issue' is never a neutral concept. It is selected, produced and refined by political influences before it becomes an issue for public debate.

Once this is recognised, we can no longer accept what seems to be a 'common sense' or natural viewpoint - such as 'people who can't speak English can't drive in Australia'. What we need to do is examine where the issue comes from, and who makes it one. Why is it 'common sense'?

Once these questions are answered, the 'issue' can be unravelled, and seen for what it really is. In this case, doing so pretty much blows the 'my opinion has nothing to do with people keeping their own cultures' claim out of the water.

What? none of that made any sense sorry. Could you explain what you mean in a clearer fashion?

 

[Murray]

The ALP has been right-wing since the 40s at the very least, and some would argue for much longer than that... and it has always been a populist party.

Only certain groupings within it have been right wing and populist, granted they are in the majority

 

[CharlieG]

What? none of that made any sense sorry. Could you explain what you mean in a clearer fashion?

Sorry. What I want you to do is consider the social context in which policy - and debate about 'issues' - is conducted. Specifically, why is it the case that there is a lot of public angst about immigrants being able to take driving tests in languages other than English?

I also want you to put aside the assumption that it is 'obviously' or 'naturally' a problem. What I'm suggesting is that the very idea of politically neutral 'common sense' policy is false. Again, to relate this back to the case at hand, I've pointed out that international driving permits don't require any language knowledge, so it isn't a broad-based concern that is common amongst other countries. That in itself should prompt questions as to how such a 'common sense' viewpoint can be so widely overlooked.

By doing this, I hope to be able to show you the reactionary identity politics that turn non-English driving tests into tests of national character.

 

[CharlieG]

Only certain groupings within it have been right wing and populist, granted they are in the majority

... and they have determined the direction of the party since the time of John Wren.

 

[Monkster]

Sorry. What I want you to do is consider the social context in which policy - and debate about 'issues' - is conducted. Specifically, why is it the case that there is a lot of public angst about immigrants being able to take driving tests in languages other than English?

I also want you to put aside the assumption that it is 'obviously' or 'naturally' a problem. What I'm suggesting is that the very idea of politically neutral 'common sense' policy is false. Again, to relate this back to the case at hand, I've pointed out that international driving permits don't require any language knowledge, so it isn't a broad-based concern that is common amongst other countries. That in itself should prompt questions as to how such a 'common sense' viewpoint can be so widely overlooked.

By doing this, I hope to be able to show you the reactionary identity politics that turn non-English driving tests into tests of national character.

See my arguement is more that the driving test should be in English because that is the language of the land rather than it would cause more accidents (I do however have to wonder how the person who cannot read the test is going to read the sign that says "Road works ahead, please slow down").

I think alot of the public angst about it being in languages other than English is for the same reasons I give, but because people are scared of being labled as a racist (I'm not scared of it, I know I'm not a racist) they feel they need to come up with a "legitimate" reason for their view.

Slightly OT, I worked with a Sudanese man who could speak and read English fairly well (at least well enough to have sat the test in English) however he had an international license, let me tell you he should've had lessons in Australia and sat the test here, the man couldn't park (we counted him at a 10 point park in a front end space), I'm not sure about his other driving abilities since I never drove with him but if his parking was any indication.....

 

[CharlieG]

See my arguement is more that the driving test should be in English because that is the language of the land rather than it would cause more accidents

Excellent. We can get straight to the point, then.

Why do you feel this way?

 

[Monkster]

Excellent. We can get straight to the point, then.

Why do you feel this way?

As I said I'm all for people bringing their cultures here, it makes us a more diverse society, but when your culture clashes with the culture already in place sorry but yours has to go.

A more in depth example goes like this:

You cannot speak English, you do not wish to speak English, therefore you cannot socialise with English speaking people, so you only socialise with those who speak your language, which creates segregation, which I am opposed to.

 

[CharlieG]

As I said I'm all for people bringing their cultures here, it makes us a more diverse society, but when your culture clashes with the culture already in place sorry but yours has to go.

A more in depth example goes like this:

You cannot speak English, you do not wish to speak English, therefore you cannot socialise with English speaking people, so you only socialise with those who speak your language, which creates segregation, which I am opposed to.

- Why is there a cultural clash?
- Why is socialising with English speaking essential? There has been non-English speaking immigration to Australia since the arrival of the English themselves (who certainly made no effort to learn indigenous languages). Generally, the trend is that the first generation maintains strong ties with their own culture, but the second generation is much more integrated with the dominant culture.

 

[Monkster]

- Why is there a cultural clash?
- Why is socialising with English speaking essential? There has been non-English speaking immigration to Australia since the arrival of the English themselves (who certainly made no effort to learn indigenous languages). Generally, the trend is that the first generation maintains strong ties with their own culture, but the second generation is much more integrated with the dominant culture.

Why come to a new country if you dont wish to socialise with the people there? If you only wanted to socialise with people from the same country as you would it not be cheaper to simply stay where you are?

 

[mantis]

Why come to a new country if you dont wish to socialise with the people there? If you only wanted to socialise with people from the same country as you would it not be cheaper to simply stay where you are?

Maybe to get away from oppressive governments.

 

[JavaBlue]

On the driving thing, I returned from overseas once and while I didn't have a valid NSW licence, I was allowed to hire a car with an Indonesian licence. A pommy friend of mine did the same thing - he got stopped by the wallopers at one stage but upon producing his Indo licence, he was allowed to continue.

I don't know the rules and regs on all this....just thought I'd bring it up.

 

[Moosehead]

i think it is ********ed that people can become australian citizens and not be able to speak or understand english. you cannot be australian without knowing english. how are you suppost to live permidently in australia and not know english. im not saying bring back the white australia policy but like make people learn english and speak it properly (it ********s me majorly when i cant understand what peiople are saying) before letting them become aussie citizens

 

[JavaBlue]

i think it is ********ed that people can become australian citizens and not be able to speak or understand english. you cannot be australian without knowing english. how are you suppost to live permidently in australia and not know english. im not saying bring back the white australia policy but make people learn english and speak it properly (it ********s me majorly when i cant understand what people are saying) before letting them become aussie citizens

I agree. They should be able to write it properly as well. However, if you've got moose-hands to go with your moosehead, I'll forgive you.

 

[mantis]

i think it is ********ed that people can become australian citizens and not be able to speak or understand english. you cannot be australian without knowing english. how are you suppost to live permidently in australia and not know english. im not saying bring back the white australia policy but like make people learn english and speak it properly (it ********s me majorly when i cant understand what people are saying) before letting them become aussie citizens

When are you leaving then? Because I sure as hell can't understand anything you write, it isn't proper english.

Also, my boss is in his 50's. he came here with his parents when he was 4, he can speak english of course, but his mother speaks very little english, she only watches Italian news because she can't understand the aussie news.

If she was denied access to australia, her three children & grandchildren, wouldn't be contributing to the australian economy.

 

[Moosehead]

When are you leaving then? Because I sure as hell can't understand anything you write, it isn't proper english.

Also, my boss is in his 50's. he came here with his parents when he was 4, he can speak english of course, but his mother speaks very little english, she only watches Italian news because she can't understand the aussie news.

If she was denied access to australia, her three children & grandchildren, wouldn't be contributing to the australian economy.

i never said anythign about writing and anyway you obviously can understand me coz you came up with an argument. your cant let people into the country just coz their children that they might have children may contribute to society. i just feel to be australian you need to atleast know our language

 

[Ljp86]

Pathetic. Foreigners should have to change for us and respect our culture and our ways of life.

We have to respect their beliefs and values in their country, so why can't they show us the same respect back.

A prime example is the politically correct Christmas slogan, "Season's Greetings". What a joke! It will always be "Merry Christmas" to me.