New Geelong VFL coach: Matthew Knights

[DapperDon]

If you think he got the same support from Essendon then fair enough. He is having success now. Maybe his list is better with the Cats #2 than what he had before? I don't know. Either way, he is communicating, educating and developing his list of players very well. That to me is part of being a good senior coach to answer your inquiry.

Go Catters

Sorry, you told me Hird was getting more support. I just wanted to know what it is?

also, being the VFL coach. Do you think he has directives from the seniors on how to play? Does he get told what structures are needed or does he have full reign?

 

[Boxhead_31]

Serious question,

Does Knights sit in Geelongs coaching box during gamedays (when the VFL aren't playing of course)?

He sure does

 

[Boxhead_31]

Sorry, you told me Hird was getting more support. I just wanted to know what it is?

also, being the VFL coach. Do you think he has directives from the seniors on how to play? Does he get told what structures are needed or does he have full reign?

Ummm Thompson, McCarthy, Goodwin, Egan, Robinson

 

[The Speaker]

Is this thread trying to prove that Knights is a good VFL coach? We already knew that.

 

[DapperDon]

Ummm Thompson, McCarthy, Goodwin, Egan, Robinson

Knights selected his staff, Hird selected his.

Hardly Essendons fault if the names above came on board because of Hird. Do you think Bomber would have left a year early if Knights had asked him? Or to a lessor extent, do you think Essendon would have said no?

Hardly proves that Hird gets more support than Knights, all it shows is his name carries more weight.

 

[Nankervis brothers]

Sorry, you told me Hird was getting more support. I just wanted to know what it is?

also, being the VFL coach. Do you think he has directives from the seniors on how to play? Does he get told what structures are needed or does he have full reign?

From what I understand, Geelong's VFL side is largely a development squad, where younger players and Rookies are taught a style of play, game plan and series of so-called 'structures' that is in keeping with the AFL team. It also seems to provide players with a chance to experiment with roles they will (hopefully) go on to fufill in their senior careers.

That said, the VFL team also drafts older guys (VFL stalwarts, ex AFL players) to beef up the team and make it as competitive as possible, and to act in mentor roles. They want the VFL team to both succeed and to act as a path way for the yonger blokes.

So I would speculate that Knights is currently in a development role for Geelong, and must implement certain AFL structures. But he would probably also be given some freedom to make the calls needed to bring wins to the VFL side.

So to answer your question: a little from column A, a little from column B.

By the bye, his record as a senior coach at ESS is much the same as Hirds (hell, he even got them to a final), and he achieved that with less support and a list that was 2-4 years less developed.
Just saying.

 

[DapperDon]

From what I understand, Geelong's VFL side is largely a development squad, where younger players and Rookies are taught a style of play, game plan and series of so-called 'structures' that is in keeping with the AFL team. It also seems to provide players with a chance to experiment with roles they will (hopefully) go on to fufill in their senior careers.

That said, the VFL team also drafts older guys (VFL stalwarts, ex AFL players) to beef up the team and make it as competitive as possible, and to act in mentor roles. They want the VFL team to both succeed and to act as a path way for the longer blokes.

So I would speculate that Knight is currently in a development role for Geelong, and must implement certain AFL structures. But he would probably also be given some freedom to make the calls needed to bring wins to the VFL side.

So to answer your question: a little from column A, a little from column B.

Cheers, makes sense. I'd imagine it would be the same for all VFL affiliate clubs. It also makes it hard to garner how much of the VFL success can be given to Knights. I've always stated he would be a great development coach as he was very good with some of our kids. Sounds like that's a big part of his job down there and best of luck to him.

 

[Nankervis brothers]

Cheers, makes sense. I'd imagine it would be the same for all VFL affiliate clubs. It also makes it hard to garner how much of the VFL success can be given to Knights. I've always stated he would be a great development coach as he was very good with some of our kids. Sounds like that's a big part of his job down there and best of luck to him.

Look, you might be right that his strengths are in development and building a list. But I am in the camp that believes he was probably axed too quickly from ESS for us to know exactly what his value is as a senior coach. As I said, his senior record is much the same as Hirds (that is not intended as a criticism of Hird).

 

[Ron The Bear]

Sorry, you told me Hird was getting more support. I just wanted to know what it is?

Apart from the extra physical resources thrown behind Hird/Thompson, Essendon allowed dissent to build. Allowed ex-players to take potshots. Allowed unhappy players to spread unrest (allegedly). Allowed coterie groups to dictate policy. The board interfered with the gameplan (allegedly). Made no attempt to educate supporters regarding the team's stage of development, resulting in the supporters themselves calling for Knights' head and voting with their feet.

Frankly I think they'd have been happy for him to win games, but after the 1-4 start the die was cast and they allowed proceedings to take an ugly course. The club wasn't united behind Knights.

 

[LongBomb]

*smirks*

Knights is real good at taking advice and direction...

Still smirking?

 

[DapperDon]

Look, you might be right that his strengths are in development and building a list. But I am in the camp that believes he was probably axed too quickly from ESS for us to know exactly what his value is as a senior coach. As I said, his senior record is much the same as Hirds (that is not intended as a criticism of Hird).

It's something we'll never truly know. The stories I've heard are that there wasn't much choice given the players feelings at the time. I know players need to be harder and listen to coach's orders but when a coach has lost just about 100% of the playing list's faith something needs to be done.

You could
1) Delist 39 players
2) Sack the coach

When the coach's track record isn't crash hot, and has failed to implement certain structures into his game plan he said he would he didn't have much to back him in. Players were requesting trades, players were about to retire. Coaching staff were leaving and board members were stood down. It wasn't just Knights sacked, Essendon had a pretty big overhaul.

The one thing that never improved under Knights was match fitness, it's why we implemented such a heavy training load this season. Which will either make Hird or break him, we'll find that out next season I guess.

 

[DapperDon]

Apart from the extra physical resources thrown behind Hird/Thompson, Essendon allowed dissent to build. Allowed ex-players to take potshots. Allowed unhappy players to spread unrest (allegedly). Allowed coterie groups to dictate policy. The board interfered with the gameplan (allegedly). Made no attempt to educate supporters regarding the team's stage of development, resulting in the supporters themselves calling for Knights' head and voting with their feet.

Frankly I think they'd have been happy for him to win games, but after the 1-4 start the die was cast and they allowed proceedings to take an ugly course. The club wasn't united behind Knights.

Which extra resources is Hird getting that Knights wasn't?

How did the club allow ex board members to take pot shots? This isn't North Korea, freedom of speech is just that.

Unhappy players are allowed to speak their mind, just like unhappy coaches are allowed to delist players. Having so many unhappy players is quite telling on the coach though, no?

Coterie members aren't my favourite people, and this I agree with you on. It was not the strongest play by the club.

The club, and Knights had been telling us for 2 1/2 years that we will be implementing a defensive game plan to work with our attacking game plan, this never came, supporters lost faith. Knights lost the club and it's supporters when spoon team WCE beat us without whimper and Etihad and LeCras kicked 12. Something had to happen.

 

[DTRAIN87]

Which extra resources is Hird getting that Knights wasn't?

How did the club allow ex board members to take pot shots? This isn't North Korea, freedom of speech is just that.

Unhappy players are allowed to speak their mind, just like unhappy coaches are allowed to delist players. Having so many unhappy players is quite telling on the coach though, no?

Coterie members aren't my favourite people, and this I agree with you on. It was not the strongest play by the club.

The club, and Knights had been telling us for 2 1/2 years that we will be implementing a defensive game plan to work with our attacking game plan, this never came, supporters lost faith. Knights lost the club and it's supporters when spoon team WCE beat us without whimper and Etihad and LeCras kicked 12. Something had to happen.

The moronic value of this post is strong. Knights was on his own. Hird received a 2 time premiership winning coach to 'help' him at $950k a year. Not to mention Hird can do whatever he wants with no one saying anything. Knights was canned for everything he did nearly.

 

[DapperDon]

The moronic value of this post is strong. Knights was on his own. Hird received a 2 time premiership winning coach to 'help' him at $950k a year. Not to mention Hird can do whatever he wants with no one saying anything. Knights was canned for everything he did nearly.

So you're saying if Bomber said to Essendon he wanted to come and help Knights, they'd have said no?

 

[DTRAIN87]

So you're saying if Bomber said to Essendon he wanted to come and help Knights, they'd have said no?

Nice try. We all know Essendon made a play for Hird and Thompson together.

 

[DapperDon]

Nice try. We all know Essendon made a play for Hird and Thompson together.

Would Thompson have come if Hird wasn't approached?

 

[DTRAIN87]

Would Thompson have come if Hird wasn't approached?

Would Thompson have come if Hird wasn't approached?

When Knights was recruited, Thompson was winning his second flag with Geelong. To me it is blatantly obvious Essendon only approached Thompson when Knights wasgetting the arse. They offered him the ass coach role to avoid potential problems with Thompson and Geelong.

 

[Ron The Bear]

The club, and Knights had been telling us for 2 1/2 years that we will be implementing a defensive game plan to work with our attacking game plan, this never came, supporters lost faith. Knights lost the club and it's supporters when spoon team WCE beat us without whimper and Etihad and LeCras kicked 12. Something had to happen.

The three youngest sides of 2010 were Essendon, West Coast and Richmond which *shock horror* were the bottom three on the ladder.

West Coast beat one opponent of note, Hawthorn (7th). Richmond beat 5th & 6th. Neither sacked its coach.

Even amidst the turmoil, Essendon defeated 2nd (twice), 4th, 7th, 8th & 9th, yet Knights emerged looking incompetent.

 

[DapperDon]

When Knights was recruited, Thompson was winning his second flag with Geelong. To me it is blatantly obvious Essendon only approached Thompson when Knights wasgetting the arse. They offered him the arse coach role to avoid potential problems with Thompson and Geelong.

Stop tip toeing around the question. Would Bomber have come if Hird wasn't coach?

 

[Nankervis brothers]

Which extra resources is Hird getting that Knights wasn't?

How did the club allow ex board members to take pot shots? This isn't North Korea, freedom of speech is just that.

Unhappy players are allowed to speak their mind, just like unhappy coaches are allowed to delist players. Having so many unhappy players is quite telling on the coach though, no?

Coterie members aren't my favourite people, and this I agree with you on. It was not the strongest play by the club.

The club, and Knights had been telling us for 2 1/2 years that we will be implementing a defensive game plan to work with our attacking game plan, this never came, supporters lost faith. Knights lost the club and it's supporters when spoon team WCE beat us without whimper and Etihad and LeCras kicked 12. Something had to happen.

Needless to say, I am not in the loop with regards to what went on behind the scenes with Knights and ESS. You paint a nasty picture, though. Whatever the case, Geelong are very happy with what Knights is doing. And you are right re Hird and the heavy training load and injuries. This year has been forgiven due to the injuries that have arisen from that loading. Fail to deliver next year and the scrutiny will be intense.

 

[DapperDon]

The three youngest sides of 2010 were Essendon, West Coast and Richmond which *shock horror* were the bottom three on the ladder.

West Coast beat one opponent of note, Hawthorn (7th). Richmond beat 5th & 6th. Neither sacked its coach.

Even amidst the turmoil, Essendon defeated 2nd (twice), 4th, 7th, 8th & 9th, yet Knights emerged looking incompetent.

As I said, it was because he failed to bring in a game plan he said he would. Our all out attack looked great on occasions and took it right up to some of the better teams. Still lost to Adelaide by 96 points in the finals when he refused to play a ruckman over an Irishman. It was flawed and needed tinkering, he failed in his job to fulfill that. He lost the players, he lost the board and most important he lost the supporters.

 

[Nankervis brothers]

As I said, it was because he failed to bring in a game plan he said he would. Our all out attack looked great on occasions and took it right up to some of the better teams. Still lost to Adelaide by 96 points in the finals when he refused to play a ruckman over an Irishman. It was flawed and needed tinkering, he failed in his job to fulfill that. He lost the players, he lost the board and most important he lost the supporters.

Bolded bit can fraught. Reacting too quickly to supporters anger is a road clubs like Richmond and Melbourne have travelled, and it has got them nowhere. Not saying the fans voice isn't important, but a club should not become reactionary to that voice.

Look at Thompson after 3 years at Geelong. He, like Knights, had inherited a list that needed a complete overhaul. He got them to 1 EF, and missed the finals in the next two years (a similar result to Knights, I believe). His win/loss record was not so different to Knights at that point. What if Geelong had sacked him for a club great of the past? Would 2007-2011 have happened? Speculation, of course, but an interesting comparison.

 

[Lance Uppercut]

You took a swipe at Knights and I got one back. If you think thats a dummy spit then good on you. We all have differnt levels of hostility i guess.

I disagree with you. I think he would make a good seniors coach. But what i think is irrelevant. Fact is Essendon threw him out and didn't really give him the same support thrown at Hird in my opinion.

He is now finding success with a decent level of support and structures. Good on him and good on Essendon for getting rid of him.

Go Catters

no, I was on topic, you were not. You made it about Essendon and now even your own supporters are bemused.

I do find it amusing how partisan some people are - now that he's at your club, as far as you're concerned he's infallible and perfect in every way!!! When he was at Essendon he was a clown. I guess that's just the way some people are.

You took it as a swipe. That's you being hyper-sensitive to any criticism of your beloved club - most people would see it as a completely reasonable assertion. Knights was a good development coach at Bendigo and is again at Geelong. He was a completely shit-house senior coach at Essendon, and where ever it was he coached in the SANFL. The facts speak for themselves. There are no facts whatsoever to support your hypothesis that he would be a good senior coach - he tried and he wasn't. No big deal, the guy's not jesus christ, he's not going to be good at everything.

The only person with an issue with this is little, biased you; who can't handle any criticism of your own club, and see veiled criticism in truthful comments. The truth is, he's found his level and is doing a great job. And good on him, I am very pleased for him.

 

[Lance Uppercut]

The moronic value of this post is strong. Knights was on his own. Hird received a 2 time premiership winning coach to 'help' him at $950k a year. Not to mention Hird can do whatever he wants with no one saying anything. Knights was canned for everything he did nearly.

making up stuff to suit your argument is fun hey!

 

[DTRAIN87]

making up stuff to suit your argument is fun hey!

I'm making nothing up. It's much like the fallacy from Essendon supporters that Knight's coaching tactics were damaging the club and therefore Knights couldn't coach.