Oppo Camp Non Geelong football (AFL) discussion 2022, part II

[CatRiot]

Does everyone think we

This is the big issue - when does AFL clubs being responsible for player welfare turn into something 'bad'. At the end of the day the only clear fact is that each club wants their players to be the best they can because it serves their interest. If a partner is causing problems and its having a knock on effect on a players performance then its clear they are getting involved because they believe its not in the players best interest for their career progression. This is where things become murkey... Should clubs be telling these young kids who they can and can't hang around with? Should they be suggesting they move in with family A because it will provide them with a more 'stable' environment for their football career or should they shutup and let the player choose to live with whoever they want even if its clearly having a negative impact on their performance? Very difficult to manage and each player will likely have a different view on it and how its helped or hindered them.

Yes, this is the thing I heard also.

 

[Hamingja]

My cousin told me what some of these claims are... It seems like a two-edged sword kind of thing, and there could be reasons why things were said... I won't go into it, but because it's involving Indigenous boys, they are looking at the scenario with a racism lens it seems. It could've been said to any young guy tbh, if the circumstances existed. But I'm only going off 2nd hand info, and I have really no idea of the full issues.

There is a funny meme though on FB, where it shows Clarko... Not sure I should post. Lol

There are levels to it.

Suggesting to players to avoid hanging around with scaley mates is one thing. I'm sure that discussion happens regularly at every footy club. Richmond getting Dusty to move in with the president, isolating him from any bad influences certainly paid off for them.

Isolating players from pregnant partners and suggesting abortions on the other hand, if the allegations hold any truth, is not something that can be justified.

 

[CatRiot]

There are levels to it.

Suggesting to players to avoid hanging around with scaley mates is one thing. I'm sure that discussion happens regularly at every footy club. Richmond getting Dusty to move in with the president, isolating him from any bad influences certainly paid off for them.

Isolating players from pregnant partners and suggesting abortions on the other hand, if the allegations hold any truth, is not something that can be justified.

Were they in a relationship? Or was it some random chick that got pregnant? Because if they ain't in a stable relationship, the liberals would ignite in that situation... If they are in a relationship fair enough, but if it was a random chick, well it depends where you sit on the fence there - liberal vs conservatives...

It then opens the question, did the coaches know the extent of the r/ship and where it was headed, or were they informed that "someone got someone pregnant" without knowing how the relationship would evolve... sometimes these things can be point in time advices, without foresight of the future of a relationship too... slippery slope in many regards.

 

[Wellsy35]

Were they in a relationship? Or was it some random chick that got pregnant? Because if they ain't in a stable relationship, the liberals would ignite in that situation... If they are in a relationship fair enough, but if it was a random chick, well it depends where you sit on the fence there - liberal vs conservatives...

It then opens the question, did the coaches know the extent of the r/ship and where it was headed, or were they informed that "someone got someone pregnant" without knowing how the relationship would evolve... sometimes these things can be point in time advices, without foresight of the future of a relationship too... slippery slope in many regards.

Read the article - they were all established relationships.

 

[rocker_oz33]

Yes, this is the thing I heard also.

Sounds like win at what ever cost .

 

[CatRiot]

Read the article - they were all established relationships.

Fair enough...

 

[Wellsy35]

Fair enough...

Sorry if that came off as brusque, I didn’t mean it to be so blunt when I typed it out.

 

[CatRiot]

Sounds like win at what ever cost .

Lot of young kids raised this way unfortunately. Some parents also push win, win, win agenda. Sometimes can lead to unintended judgments and actions.

 

[Cataholic]

This is the big issue - when does AFL clubs being responsible for player welfare turn into something 'bad'. At the end of the day the only clear fact is that each club wants their players to be the best they can because it serves their interest. If a partner is causing problems and its having a knock on effect on a players performance then its clear they are getting involved because they believe its not in the players best interest for their career progression. This is where things become murkey... Should clubs be telling these young kids who they can and can't hang around with? Should they be suggesting they move in with family A because it will provide them with a more 'stable' environment for their football career or should they shutup and let the player choose to live with whoever they want even if its clearly having a negative impact on their performance? Very difficult to manage and each player will likely have a different view on it and how its helped or hindered them.

There's something to be said for mentoring, and the encouragement of wise choices with associates, but meddling with / destroying established relationships is a step too far, as is the abortion issue.

This all has to be proven, but it's very difficult to believe that the ABC didn't have the evidence, and the story they ran, heavily scrutinised by the legal fraternity to ensure it would hold water against defamation action.

 

[Stocks_go_Up]

There are levels to it.

Suggesting to players to avoid hanging around with scaley mates is one thing. I'm sure that discussion happens regularly at every footy club. Richmond getting Dusty to move in with the president, isolating him from any bad influences certainly paid off for them.

Isolating players from pregnant partners and suggesting abortions on the other hand, if the allegations hold any truth, is not something that can be justified.

I think you will find like all of these incidents that there is quite a bit of grey area - like I said its not exactly a new thing that young professional athletes receive advice to not become a young parent or add a another child to mix because it might effect their performance. Usually this will come from the family of the athlete although I have no doubt that because sporting organisations are so close and intertwined with players lives that 'advice' or suggestions are passed on about what they think is in the players best interest from a career perspective.

I know young women around the world are receiving 'advice' from bosses regarding what effect having a child would have on their career goals. I can also say career related stress has influenced pregnancy outcomes because the system is not designed to allow the woman the time they feel is required to look after their own bodies during pregnancy. Depending on countries this can vary massively - only the nordic countries have it close to being acceptable. In these cases I don't believe it is a race issue and more a social issue. The best clubs can do now is step back and stop offering advice to young players about their specific lifestyle choices (especially partner, parenting advice and decisions) and instead focus on offering support services so that IF a player does make a decision the club views was the wrong one that also effects the players performance then there is a system in place to help the player deal with it. It might not be the most effective system for getting all players to their optimal performance levels but it will prevent occurrences like the one we are experiencing now.

 

[rocker_oz33]

Lot of young kids raised this way unfortunately. Some parents also push win, win, win agenda. Sometimes can lead to unintended judgments and actions.

AFL clubs are big business.
So if your a line coach you get the best out and win at all costs .no matter what .
You still have a job .

Not saying it's right .

 

[CatRiot]

AFL clubs are big business.
So if your a line coach you get the best out and win at all costs .no matter what .
You still have a job .

Not saying it's right .

Yeah, I understand that mindset.

 

[Stocks_go_Up]

AFL clubs are big business.
So if your a line coach you get the best out and win at all costs .no matter what .
You still have a job .

Not saying it's right .

This is the problem - sporting organisations are focused on one thing - success. If this means telling a player they probably shouldn't be having a kid or that their partner is toxic and should leave them then I can bet it happens everyday all across the world and across every sporting code - it doesn't make it right at all. Even in friendship circles young males always joke to their mates about not getting their girlfriends knocked up because the implication is it would have negative impacts on lifestyle and career progress. I honestly feel like the media and a lot of people are coming at this wrong by making it a race issue - this is a societal issue. The article stated that the hawks had 20 Indigenous players on their list over the time period in question - out of the 20 players only 3 of them highlighted issues serious enough to raise concerns publicly. If the article came out and said of the 20 players interviewed - 10 or 15 of them had problems like this then maybe it would be worth using race as the lens with which it was looked at. Especially if they interviewed EVERY young player at the club and not just Indigenous players and found that only the Indigenous players were having issues with parental and partner advice they were being given.

 

[Art Vandelay_]

Just once would like to not have to see dribbling nonsense from Chewy. Be gone.

 

[rocker_oz33]

Just once would like to not have to see dribbling nonsense from Chewy. Be gone.

Who's chewy .

 

[Stocks_go_Up]

Moving forward I think the AFL will just have to make it clear that clubs should NOT be giving any parental or partner/family advice to players. Give them nutrition and career advice (lots of players learn a second career while playing) until the cows come home and continue to offer support for a wide range of possible problems and leave it at that. Young players are getting shipped across state and moved into homes with new families - some are moving in with coaching staff as well. If a player is requesting they live with their partner instead then support it and IF issues arise down the line because of that decision then continue to offer support. If a young player is hanging around with the 'wrong' crowd or having family related issues then DO NOT GET INVOLVED or tell them what they should or shouldn't do. Even if the player comes to the club and asks for advice they should simply say that they cannot offer advice and they should talk to other people around them they trust.

Clubs should offer support so that the players know that if THEY decide they need some assistance then the club is there to help. This solution is in no way perfect because unfortunately it will mean that some players will make bad decisions that will have negative effects on their career and even life - but at least it means that the responsibility will fall on the player themselves knowing full well the club was there to support and clean up any poor decision making if the player requests help.

 

[Chinacats]

Betts said it’s not surprising and a review at all clubs should be done in terms of their Handling of aboriginal players .

 

[CatRiot]

Moving forward I think the AFL will just have to make it clear that clubs should NOT be giving any parental or partner/family advice to players. Give them nutrition and career advice (lots of players learn a second career while playing) until the cows come home and continue to offer support for a wide range of possible problems and leave it at that. Young players are getting shipped across state and moved into homes with new families - some are moving in with coaching staff as well. If a player is requesting they live with their partner instead then support it and IF issues arise down the line because of that decision then continue to offer support. If a young player is hanging around with the 'wrong' crowd or having family related issues then DO NOT GET INVOLVED or tell them what they should or shouldn't do. Even if the player comes to the club and asks for advice they should simply say that they cannot offer advice and they should talk to other people around them they trust.

Clubs should offer support so that the players know that if THEY decide they need some assistance then the club is there to help. This solution is in no way perfect because unfortunately it will mean that some players will make bad decisions that will have negative effects on their career and even life - but at least it means that the responsibility will fall on the player themselves knowing full well the club was there to support and clean up any poor decision making if the player requests help.

That is probably the more realistic outcome from all of this, they just don't get involved in personal matters going forward. Leave these decisions to the players themselves. But I doubt the Coaches had a Gun to the heads of these players, the players are adults themselves and can make their own decisions.

It would be highly unlikely that any of these advices would've been directly tied to remuneration, their position in the team, etc etc, more like off the cuff advices. I don't know, haven't been in a footy club environment since a junior to fully understand it.

 

[Stocks_go_Up]

This is an interesting take but almost the opposite situation.. Instead of the coach telling a player their partner should get an abortion Jim Harbaugh (Michigan Wolverines head coach) is telling his young players and their partners to NOT have abortions.. Note that he was in no way crucified by the media for thinking its OK to tell players what their partners should be doing regarding pregnancy events. As I said I think the only way forward is for all sporting clubs to stop offering any advice about parenting decisions or outcomes - this includes partners and who they should be hanging around or sleeping with.

"I've told [them] the same thing I tell my kids, boys, the girls, same thing I tell our players, our staff members. I encourage them if they have a pregnancy that wasn't planned, to go through with it, go through with it. Let that unborn child be born, and if at that time, you don't feel like you can care for it, you don't have the means or the wherewithal, then Sarah and I will take that baby."

 

[BlakeyNoFlakey]

AFL clubs are big business.
So if your a line coach you get the best out and win at all costs .no matter what .
You still have a job .

Not saying it's right .

Then why didn't this happen to white players if it's just a win at all costs exercise? The fact some indignous players in the squad were singled out for this treatment was racist.

 

[Pavlovs Cat]

Interesting to note that when Chance Bateman

Chance Bateman

Age

43

Ht

175cm

Wt

75kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

15.1

4star

K

8.8

3star

HB

6.3

4star

M

3.9

4star

T

2.1

4star

CL

1.1

3star

No current season stats available

D

18.6

5star

K

11.0

4star

HB

7.6

5star

M

4.6

5star

T

2.8

5star

CL

1.2

4star

was drafted in 1999 he was the first indigenous player at the Hawks since 1964.

 

[dazbroncos]

Whilst I hope this is not the case, im sure that every club that looks back will have degrees of racism and discrimination littering its past.
I"m sure we are no different. Id be very wary of throwing stones in glass houses about now.

This shit needs to end and end now.

GO Catters

 

[catsfootyfan89]

Whilst I hope this is not the case, im sure that every club that looks back will have degrees of racism and discrimination littering its past.
I"m sure we are no different. Id be very wary of throwing stones in glass houses about now.

This s**t needs to end and end now.

GO Catters

For what it's worth, my reaction to the incident has nothing to do with the fact that it's happening at Hawthorn and not Geelong. I actually went on the Hawks board to say how sorry I am that it's happened and all the supporters over there are totally gutted about it. A lot of them even abandoning the club and saying they don't follow anymore. You're correct about racism - it's everywhere in varying degrees.
If a story like this came out of the Cats, I'd want those responsible to take their licks and be disbarred from the industry as a whole. I wouldn't care who it was. Club legends be damned. We make such a song and dance about incidents of racism that are public and obvious, but how can you really back it up if blokes like Clarkson have been engaged in stuff like this?
I agree with you, there needs to be serious consequences here and the league needs to make a resounding example to show the country that this sort of stuff will be the end of you if you engage in it.
Heart goes out to all the indigenous kids that are still being treated like this, and I hope justice comes quickly so the healing can begin.
Imagine being Clarko right now. I wonder where his mind is at? I also hope that the claims being made are founded, because his reputation has already been permanently altered without trial.

 

[doctor_evil]

Then why didn't this happen to white players if it's just a win at all costs exercise? The fact some indignous players in the squad were singled out for this treatment was racist.

How do you know it didn’t happen to white players?

The reason this selection of players were being interviewed is because they were indigenous.

If this has happened, so brazenly, a lot of people would have chose to suffer in silence in the past in other circumstances.

There is a behaviour pattern here.

Boys Club.

 

[you pick one]

There's something to be said for mentoring, and the encouragement of wise choices with associates, but meddling with / destroying established relationships is a step too far, as is the abortion issue.

This all has to be proven, but it's very difficult to believe that the ABC didn't have the evidence, and the story they ran, heavily scrutinised by the legal fraternity to ensure it would hold water against defamation action.

They are better at damaging than proving Pell and Porter spring to mind very recent cases,lets hope the have their facts straight this time.