Non Lions Discussion 2024

[Jivlain]

Overstep? Over reach?

Reenacting rape? Underage minors? Slavery? Acts of terrorism?

Sorry, in no way are these penalties unjustified.

We have a women's competition. That alone is cause enough to throw the book at these guys. Add in the battles with vilification and players being accused of similar acts and incidents over recent years and this is just stupid, tasteless and brainless.

I don't care if it was behind closed doors - it wasn't, there were staff there and CCTV video footage taken - there is a line you don't cross. Plenty of public figures are held to account for private acts and this is no different.

Simulated rape and making light of underage girls is about as derogatory and demeaning as you can get - privately and publicly. It shows how far we have to go to rid ourselves of double standards and disrespect. I cannot imagine the disgust the women's GWS team must feel.

They're young, they're inexperienced, they're overpaid, they're rarely told no. That's the life of an AFL player. That's why it was crucial the AFL did what they did... they had no choice.

And I would be just as pissed and disappointed if it was our boys.

Idun maybe a bit harsh, given he's Ghanian and also apparently asked first. I'm glad he's on the low end of the penalties (mind, I also haven't gotten around to watching that film so I don't know the scene). If you feel you have to ask that's probably a good hint that you probably just shouldn't, mind.

 

[Nathan Barley]

Never change Leppa.... so glad we got rid of him

 

[notliondown]

Idun maybe a bit harsh, given he's Ghanian and also apparently asked first. I'm glad he's on the low end of the penalties (mind, I also haven't gotten around to watching that film so I don't know the scene). If you feel you have to ask that's probably a good hint that you probably just shouldn't, mind.

Yeah he's the one I really struggle with... like you say, he was concerned enough to ask, so he knew what he was doing was sketchy. I will give him credit for being aware and understanding he was going to potentially offend...

Which was why he of all of them should also have known better.

It's just a mess. We've all had errors of judgement... I just hope they realise and all of the other players as well, that you need to practice what you preach and claim to stand for in public, when you are alone and in private and think no one is watching.

 

[captainrich]

Never change Leppa.... so glad we got rid of him

View attachment 2146463

I have met Leppa before extremely nice guy. Note Barrett and him have a massive beef from his team as our coach where they got into a scuffle about things he was writing about the Lions....so cant completely read into what is said.

 

[Tom14]

Overstep? Over reach?

Reenacting rape? Underage minors? Slavery? Acts of terrorism?

Sorry, in no way are these penalties unjustified.

We have a women's competition. That alone is cause enough to throw the book at these guys. Add in the battles with vilification and players being accused of similar acts and incidents over recent years and this is just stupid, tasteless and brainless.

I don't care if it was behind closed doors - it wasn't, there were staff there and CCTV video footage taken - there is a line you don't cross. Plenty of public figures are held to account for private acts and this is no different.

Simulated rape and making light of underage girls is about as derogatory and demeaning as you can get - privately and publicly. It shows how far we have to go to rid ourselves of double standards and disrespect. I cannot imagine the disgust the women's GWS team must feel.

They're young, they're inexperienced, they're overpaid, they're rarely told no. That's the life of an AFL player. That's why it was crucial the AFL did what they did... they had no choice.

And I would be just as pissed and disappointed if it was our boys.

The detail that has dripped out is pretty horrifying. I've seen a lot of people pointing to other costumes that weren't punished - e.g. Bartel dressing up as the St Kilda schoolgirl, or Melbourne having two dress up as a Rolf Harris and a victim.

That should also have been condemned and punished, on reflection.

If you have glossed over the detail and just think this is PC gone mad, I'd ask you to read this on what this actually means:

Women in the AFL left hurt and disappointed in wake of GWS costume scandal

Women who work within the AFL community and fans of the game are left feeling hurt and angered by the fallout of the GWS post-season function saga, while many have been targeted online after speaking out against the behaviour.

www.abc.net.au

Emma Race, who co-created the Outer Sanctum Podcast and Making the Call sports broadcasting program, said the link between jokes and gender-based violence was misunderstood in the community.

"For people like us who work in the game, the shock is when our male colleagues are not making that connection, and when the players who have had all of the education from school, the AFL, their clubs and even stood in a circle in memoriam of women and are still not making that connection either," she said.

"The attitudes of media colleagues and former players have so much weight with the trolls and give way to an online conversation where the response is to be aggressive and blame the people who find this behaviour confronting, rather laying responsibility at the feet of the people whose behaviour is at the centre of the incident."

This year, AFL players, coaches and umpires stood arm-in-arm in a circle on the ground before matches and observed a moment's silence to honour the victims of violence against women.

One woman has been killed violently on average every four days in Australia this year.

This year, Our Watch CEO Patty Kinnersly did an education session with GWS, including the men's playing group, on equality and respect.

"We are not across the detail of what is alleged to have taken place, but any kind of behaviours including jokes that are sexist or about sexual violence are not harmless," she said.

"They normalise harmful attitudes toward women, minimise violence and reinforce harmful stereotypes. They contribute to a culture where violence against women is accepted and thrives.

"We are in the midst of a national crisis of violence against women, and sporting codes, in particular male sporting stars, have a vital role in standing alongside the women in their lives — to lead and model respectful behaviour and advocate for change among their fans and across the community.

"Their voices and behaviours are powerful in helping deliver real-world change to reduce and end violence against women."

 

[Nathan Barley]

I have met Leppa before extremely nice guy. Note Barrett and him have a massive beef from his team as our coach where they got into a scuffle about things he was writing about the Lions....so cant completely read into what is said.

Plenty of people are nice in social situations and horrible in high pressure work environments

 

[knaf]

The detail that has dripped out is pretty horrifying. I've seen a lot of people pointing to other costumes that weren't punished - e.g. Bartel dressing up as the St Kilda schoolgirl, or Melbourne having two dress up as a Rolf Harris and a victim.

That should also have been condemned and punished, on reflection.

If you have glossed over the detail and just think this is PC gone mad, I'd ask you to read this on what this actually means:

How could someone think this is funny?

 

[Saucery]

Idun maybe a bit harsh, given he's Ghanian and also apparently asked first. I'm glad he's on the low end of the penalties (mind, I also haven't gotten around to watching that film so I don't know the scene). If you feel you have to ask that's probably a good hint that you probably just shouldn't, mind.

What stands out to me is a complete lack of awareness by the leadership group, they just stood by and let it happen.

Much like the last quarter of the semi-final!

 

[martinson]

I'm quite bemused by people who get outraged by what other people do and think.

That obviously won't get much of a reception here but I'm sure all the holier than thous have done stupid things in their lives.

 

[martinson]

I'm not at all surprised by the reactions to what as far as I know are descriptions as to what allegedly occurred but whoever is involved are going to carry this around forever far and above whatever formal punishments are dished out.

That's the way these things play out these days.

So no real need to jump up and down about what disgraceful people they are. They're going to cop a worse punishment in many ways than someone who's convicted of a crime.

I'm a bit perplexed as to how they allowed this to occur. They're not all young and stupid. Well at least young.

 

[notliondown]

I'm quite bemused by people who get outraged by what other people do and think.

That obviously won't get much of a reception here but I'm sure all the holier than thous have done stupid things in their lives.

I'm not at all surprised by the reactions to what as far as I know are descriptions as to what allegedly occurred but whoever is involved are going to carry this around forever far and above whatever formal punishments are dished out.

That's the way these things play out these days.

So no real need to jump up and down about what disgraceful people they are. They're going to cop a worse punishment in many ways than someone who's convicted of a crime.

I'm a bit perplexed as to how they allowed this to occur. They're not all young and stupid. Well at least young.

I don't consider myself holier than thou... and I most certainly have done things I regret and am ashamed of. I do carry the shame of those things with me even now.

It's a huge part of the reason I think these boys are right to be punished.

I don't think they are disgraceful people - I think they made an huge error of judgement. But that doesn't mean there shouldn't be consequences. It's how we learn and shape our future decisions.

You can call it outrage if you like - it's easy enough to say that there is now probably a larger amount of outrage at the outrage too just quietly - but being aware of others sensitivities and what are now community norms isn't a lot to ask.

That's all this is at the end of the day - being aware that other peoples differences and views are worthy of respect too - even behind closed doors.

 

[martinson]

I don't consider myself holier than thou... and I most certainly have done things I regret and am ashamed of. I do carry the shame of those things with me even now.

It's a huge part of the reason I think these boys are right to be punished.

I don't think they are disgraceful people - I think they made an huge error of judgement. But that doesn't mean there shouldn't be consequences. It's how we learn and shape our future decisions.

You can call it outrage if you like - it's easy enough to say that there is now probably a larger amount of outrage at the outrage too just quietly - but being aware of others sensitivities and what are now community norms isn't a lot to ask.

That's all this is at the end of the day - being aware that other peoples differences and views are worthy of respect too - even behind closed doors.

I don't disagree at all. My point is that I feel sorry for them. Both for what the outcome will be and for whatever their thinking was.

They haven't broken the law as far as I'm aware. I would think they'd be mortified that this has ended up where it has. Maybe they're stupid, naive or downright ignorant but it's there now in the public arena and there'll be the usual overreaction either way.

Truth is stranger than fiction. The things people do never surprises me.

I still have throwbacks to the things I did as a young man and not getting punished hasn't in any way lessened the remorse that you sometimes still feel decades later.

 

[Elixuh]

I think the fines and suspensions are fine in the context of what they did. They made a mistake, take the punishment and move on and hopefully be better next time. I'm kind of surprised some clubs don't do a quick pre-mad Monday check of what players intend to come dressed as given there is often media involved outside venues etc.

The part I find interesting is that none of the coaches or staff were fined. While not there for the skits, they were presumably there while people were dressed as 9/11, Hayne etc. I'm not sure how they escape criticism and it falls to the captain of the club.

 

[Sproj]

Witherden cut by the Eagles. You'd assume that is his AFL career over sadly.

Actually pretty crazy that he played 18 games and still gets cut.

 

[martinson]

For context I cut my

I think the fines and suspensions are fine in the context of what they did. They made a mistake, take the punishment and move on and hopefully be better next time. I'm kind of surprised some clubs don't do a quick pre-mad Monday check of what players intend to come dressed as given there is often media involved outside venues etc.

The part I find interesting is that none of the coaches or staff were fined. While not there for the skits, they were presumably there while people were dressed as 9/11, Hayne etc. I'm not sure how they escape criticism and it falls to the captain of the club.

I'm really surprised clubs haven't banned the Mad Monday thing or any similar gatherings where any independent vision is available . Your point re the coaches and staff is the real issue. If they were fined the AFL is opening up a larger can of worms where the stench would be ongoing.

I cut my teeth for my burgeoning brain in an era where Peter Cook and Barry Humphries used to satirise every disgraceful act by anyone in the public eye in a way that these days would be unthinkable and the audience was rolling in the aisles.

The changes in public mores through the centuries was something we studied at school and beyond and reflecting now it's interesting to watch this unfold dramatically over the last decade or so. Like so many things that have changed dramatically in that time.

 

[Tom14]

I think the fines and suspensions are fine in the context of what they did. They made a mistake, take the punishment and move on and hopefully be better next time. I'm kind of surprised some clubs don't do a quick pre-mad Monday check of what players intend to come dressed as given there is often media involved outside venues etc.

The part I find interesting is that none of the coaches or staff were fined. While not there for the skits, they were presumably there while people were dressed as 9/11, Hayne etc. I'm not sure how they escape criticism and it falls to the captain of the club.

I think that's part of what the AFLPA statement tries to say. Fair enough to point to a totally inconsistent afl process for off the field sanctions but I'd say the current ambiguities suit all parties and the AFLPA really doesn't actually want a codified process.

Personally I'm fine with where the punishments landed for this incident, but this is an easy thing for the AFL to punish - there was CCTV footage, no one could deny it happened.

More serious allegations where evidence is contested remain something the AFL hasn't wanted to touch, and I think they could learn from the NRL and consider a no-fault stand down process where a player has been charged with a serious criminal offence.

 

[McIvor]

Irrespective of what occurred, I actually cant believe that grown men feel the need that at the conclusion of the season they need a fancy dress party. I mean one club started doing it (Geelong) years ago and now just about every other club as the sheep they are, now do it. My question is why? What’s the point.

I guess I’ve always hated fancy dress and I hate even more cliches and sheep which is why I don’t get the fascination of other clubs doing it as if it is another of those stupid rites of passage or something but that’s me I guess.

 

[martinson]

Irrespective of what occurred, I actually cant believe that grown men feel the need that at the conclusion of the season they need a fancy dress party. I mean one club started doing it (Geelong) years ago and now just about every other club as the sheep they are, now do it. My question is why? What’s the point.

I guess I’ve always hated fancy dress and I hate even more cliches and sheep which is why I don’t get the fascination of other clubs doing it as if it is another of those stupid rites of passage or something but that’s me I guess.

Any footage I've seen of the fancy dress efforts just isn't funny.

The one thing that bothers me a bit about the public vilification of a few idiots is that the wold crashes down on a footballer simulating sex with a doll (well that's what's been alleged, at a private function ) , because it's misogynistic ,'rape culture ' , shocking influence on young people whatever label you want to give it and yet anyone with access to a computer or device , including children , can instantly access vision of women young and old being sexually brutalised ,subjucated ,in sexual roles that are demeaning and often uncategorical and the world stands by and seems to think that's ok. Or for many people entertaining.

 

[morsie]

Seriously anyone offended by the Giants has never been to your standard stand up comedy gig.You will hear way worse verbally to mixed audience who will be laughing their collective backsides off.Not my cup of tea but there you go.You will probably hear worse on the ABC and Channel 10 which both show a lot of stand up.
You will hear r filthy stories rape jokes and everything else.Thebig difference is that the gWS stuff was supposed to be in house.Not justifying it but there is a lot of hypocrisy and double standards out there.

 

[Nathan Barley]

Seriously anyone offended by the Giants has never been to your standard stand up comedy gig.You will hear way worse verbally to mixed audience who will be laughing their collective backsides off.Not my cup of tea but there you go.You will probably hear worse on the ABC and Channel 10 which both show a lot of stand up.
You will hear r filthy stories rape jokes and everything else.Thebig difference is that the gWS stuff was supposed to be in house.Not justifying it but there is a lot of hypocrisy and double standards out there.

On what ABC show are you hearing filthy rape jokes?

 

[captainrich]

Witherden cut by the Eagles. You'd assume that is his AFL career over sadly.

Actually pretty crazy that he played 18 games and still gets cut.

Yeah I agree very weird that he played so many games but got delisted. Watched some of the games and he did make alot of mistakes. While it's great that we made the right choice in moving on from him given the outcome of his career, I do still feel had for him. Thought he had alot of talent.

 

[Jivlain]

Seriously anyone offended by the Giants has never been to your standard stand up comedy gig.You will hear way worse verbally to mixed audience who will be laughing their collective backsides off.Not my cup of tea but there you go.You will probably hear worse on the ABC and Channel 10 which both show a lot of stand up.
You will hear r filthy stories rape jokes and everything else.Thebig difference is that the gWS stuff was supposed to be in house.Not justifying it but there is a lot of hypocrisy and double standards out there.

Pretty bizarre post honestly. Maybe the Louis CK comeback tour is like that, I wouldn't know. But I've been to a fair bit of random standup without encountering suchlike.

Certainly if my experience going blind into random free Edinburgh fringe shows is anything to go by, you're more likely to encounter a comedy set framed around a bunch of card tricks* than on rape jokes.

* not that it's necessarily representative but it's weird that it's happened twice

 

[McIvor]

Yeah I agree very weird that he played so many games but got delisted. Watched some of the games and he did make alot of mistakes. While it's great that we made the right choice in moving on from him given the outcome of his career, I do still feel had for him. Thought he had alot of talent.

Witho is still had a 100+ game career which is a pretty awesome achievement even if throughout his career the club’s he played for were bottom four teams save his last one or two seasons with us. Witho should be proud of his career irrespective.

 

[Elixuh]

Seriously anyone offended by the Giants has never been to your standard stand up comedy gig.You will hear way worse verbally to mixed audience who will be laughing their collective backsides off.Not my cup of tea but there you go.You will probably hear worse on the ABC and Channel 10 which both show a lot of stand up.
You will hear r filthy stories rape jokes and everything else.Thebig difference is that the gWS stuff was supposed to be in house.Not justifying it but there is a lot of hypocrisy and double standards out there.

I haven’t seen that episode of antiques roadshow

 

[Nunez]

I haven’t seen that episode of antiques roadshow

Snowflake