Patrick Dangerfield - potential GOAT?

[PhatBoy]

how would they cope when modern teams that were used to the pressure couldnt? it would be all over by 2 nd qtr

I’ll ask one more time.

Why do they have to cope with modern teams under modern circumstances?

In a fantasy match up, why is it being played under conditions familiar to the modern Richmond side - modern training standards, facilities, rules, tactical advantacements.

Why can’t you answer this question?

If Richmond got parachuted into 2002 rather than Brisbane being parachuted into 2020, suddenly Richmond aren’t as fit because training standards aren’t as good, they get the f*** bashed out of them because they wouldn’t have encountered a team as physical as Brisbane, they are nowhere near as skilled across the park, they face a team who’s worst key forward was Jonathan Brown, they have no exposure to the game styles that they used in 2017-20 because they haven’t been conceived yet.

Please answer the question: why is this hypothetical game played exclusively under a modern, current condition?

 

[STRONGandBALD]

Again, if this fantasy game happened, why do the 2001 lions have to play the Richmond of 17-20 under current conditions? How do you NOT understand this?

Probably best for another thread. But it’s not about the conditions (I get that you have to make them adapt to be fair). It’s the list make up, which everybody knows is important. Matchups matter especially under weather conditions.

To put it very simply it’s like scissors, paper, rock.

Richmond (and pretty much this years top 4) is the paper. Lions is the rock. The modern teams would absolutely suffocate them just from the pure list build. Great balance of smalls and talls all over the ground, overall speed is much better and thus could outplay them in multiple ways with tempo. The lions list as they all were back then, was very one dimensional. Most of the list were just brutes in order to win the 1v1 contests.

The game would pretty much go down like cats vs tigers during 17-20. Slow chip kick footy vs chaos and we all know what happened. It’s why the league is what it is now. List builds and recruiting has changed. That’s an advantage that the Lions can never have this hypothetical matchup. Their list is what it is.

 

[STRONGandBALD]

In 20 years time, any top four team would smash any Richmond side of 17-20.
It's easy to play this game.

Yep they would no doubt.

 

[Vassp]

I’ll ask one more time.

Why do they have to cope with modern teams under modern circumstances?

In a fantasy match up, why is it being played under conditions familiar to the modern Richmond side - modern training standards, facilities, rules, tactical advantacements.

Why can’t you answer this question?

If Richmond got parachuted into 2002 rather than Brisbane being parachuted into 2020, suddenly Richmond aren’t as fit because training standards aren’t as good, they get the f*** bashed out of them because they wouldn’t have encountered a team as physical as Brisbane, they are nowhere near as skilled across the park, they face a team who’s worst key forward was Jonathan Brown, they have no exposure to the game styles that they used in 2017-20 because they haven’t been conceived yet.

Please answer the question: why is this hypothetical game played exclusively under a modern, current condition?

wrong again, we based our system on fitness and speed, the same way Brisbane based their system on brute.
take a look how much faster soccer is compared to 20 yrs ago, same with afl, my point is that speed will beat buff.
Both teams have a style.
players running both ways ETC.

The Richmond of today, fitness is part of the deal, your understanding of sports is a bit off dude, please ready up.

 

[PhatBoy]

wrong again, we based our system on fitness and speed, the same way Brisbane based their system on brute.
take a look how much faster soccer is compared to 20 yrs ago, same with afl, my point is that speed will beat buff.
Both teams have a style.
players running both ways ETC.

The Richmond of today, fitness is part of the deal, your understanding of sports is a bit off dude, please ready up.

I’ll ask one more time.

Can you tell my why, in this fantasy match up, Brisbane have to play you under current conditions.

The other guy that commented seemed to actually understand the comment.

You don’t.

On a level playing field, Brisbane flog you mercilessly. They flog our flag team from last year too.

 

[Vassp]

I’ll ask one more time.

Can you tell my why, in this fantasy match up, Brisbane have to play you under current conditions.

The other guy that commented seemed to actually understand the comment.

You don’t.

On a level playing field, Brisbane flog you mercilessly. They flog our flag team from last year too.

i did answer it, our team is based on speed, fitness and pressure.

You're thinking about players only, like stats in a video game, our players were selected to fit a purpose, the whole machine.

If we went back 20 yrs our playing style and fitness would be down quite a bit, and tactics.
But thats like saying if brissy were small and skinny how good would they be? , its taking thier one wood away.
Our ONE wood is speed and chaos.

SO again. it would be a no contest afair.

 

[My Tilly]

i did answer it, our team is based on speed, fitness and pressure.

You're thinking about players only, like stats in a video game, our players were selected to fit a purpose, the whole machine.

If we went back 20 yrs our playing style and fitness would be down quite a bit, and tactics.
But thats like saying if brissy were small and skinny how good would they be? , its taking thier one wood away.
Our ONE wood is speed and chaos.

SO again. it would be a no contest afair.

So given your fitness and tactics diminish, what makes you assume your speed and chaotic style would hold up in 2003?
Teams threw everything they knew at them and each time they found a way to counter it.
Even pushing the boundaries in sports science themselves (oxygen masks on the sidelines etc).
They had the best talent by quite some margin. Even the guys on the brink of best 22 would have been stars at every other club.

 

[PhatBoy]

i did answer it, our team is based on speed, fitness and pressure.

You're thinking about players only, like stats in a video game, our players were selected to fit a purpose, the whole machine.

If we went back 20 yrs our playing style and fitness would be down quite a bit, and tactics.
But thats like saying if brissy were small and skinny how good would they be? , its taking thier one wood away.
Our ONE wood is speed and chaos.

SO again. it would be a no contest afair.

If your team existed 20 years ago they wouldn’t be based on speed and fitness and pressure relative to todays standards.

It’s not a hard concept to grasp

 

[Vassp]

If your team existed 20 years ago they wouldn’t be based on speed and fitness and pressure relative to todays standards.

It’s not a hard concept to grasplook,
I didnt say if we were around back then , You wanted that scenario to try make your self right.

I said if the Richmond of 2017-2020 played the three-peat Brisbane, Brisbane would get smashed. Very simple

 

[Vassp]

If your team existed 20 years ago they wouldn’t be based on speed and fitness and pressure relative to todays standards.

It’s not a hard concept to grasp

our team didn't exist 20 years ago, get back to the original argument instead of trying to railroad a scenario that suits you.

 

[Vassp]

So given your fitness and tactics diminish, what makes you assume your speed and chaotic style would hold up in 2003?
Teams threw everything they knew at them and each time they found a way to counter it.
Even pushing the boundaries in sports science themselves (oxygen masks on the sidelines etc).
They had the best talent by quite some margin. Even the guys on the brink of best 22 would have been stars at every other club.

again, if we diminish in our core strength so should Brisbane in their core strength. cant handicap Richmond to win an argument.
has to work both ways, you're having trouble grasping ying and yang.

 

[PhatBoy]

our team didn't exist 20 years ago, get back to the original argument instead of trying to railroad a scenario that suits you.

I haven’t.

It’s a moot argument because it’s being made on an assumption that a ‘fantasy’ hypothetical is being played out with only one team being favoured by the circumstances in which it’s played.

The Lions team was far stronger and better and fans of 17 teams would and have unanimously concurred many times

 

[PhatBoy]

again, if we diminish in our core strength so should Brisbane in their core strength. cant handicap Richmond to win an argument.
has to work both ways, you're having trouble grasping ying and yang.

Exactly and any handicap is applied evenly. What edge you might have in fitness in some sort of ‘middle ground’ scenario is more than made up for by Brisbane’s edge in total talent, hardness, man on man skill etc.

 

[Vassp]

Exactly and any handicap is applied evenly. What edge you might have in fitness in some sort of ‘middle ground’ scenario is more than made up for by Brisbane’s edge in total talent, hardness, man on man skill etc.

OMG, again for the hundredth time, Richmonds ONE WOOD vs Brisbains ONE WOOD = Richmond would destroy Brisbane.
Brisbane wouldnt know what to do from the chaos.

What is more remarkable is that Richmond did it with minimal high-end draft picks.
While Brisbane, Sydney got gifted big time.

it makes what the tigers achieved all the more amazing.

 

[Seeds]

He isn't even top 3 midfielder of the 00's.

Ablett
Judd



Pendlebury
Fyfe

The rest.

Pendlebury? I mean im not even sure if he was the pies best in that period let alone in the top half dozen in the comp.

 

[Seeds]

OMG, again for the hundredth time, Richmonds ONE WOOD vs Brisbains ONE WOOD = Richmond would destroy Brisbane.
Brisbane wouldnt know what to do from the chaos.

What is more remarkable is that Richmond did it with minimal high-end draft picks.
While Brisbane, Sydney got gifted big time.

it makes what the tigers achieved all the more amazing.

in one year you played only teams outside of melbourne in all 3 finals at your home ground to win the flag. The second flag was only marginally harder.

 

[Seeds]

Enright over Dangerfield.. Most Cats fans would say yes.
Enright's competition in his position is Bruce Doull. Absolute champion medium defender.

cats fans dont seem to know danger played at the crows and had some pretty amazing years as well. Thus they oddly think selwood was vastly more consistent.

enright isnt even in the top 2 geelong defenders of the past 20 years. Let alone players. Scarlett and stewart superior players. And danger is ahead of both those two.

dangers finals series was amazing last year. Enright never ever even got close to having that sort of influence on matches. Probably was only ranked in the top 4 players on the ground once in his entire finals career.

 

[STRONGandBALD]

Exactly and any handicap is applied evenly. What edge you might have in fitness in some sort of ‘middle ground’ scenario is more than made up for by Brisbane’s edge in total talent, hardness, man on man skill etc.

What I don’t think you realise is the following:

- Richmond 17-20 are the pressure kings of AFL/VFL history. To the point that they had to create a pressure meter to figure out how we were winning games despite losing the main key indicators like clearances etc. Nowadays if you get a reading over 200 on the pressure meter you win the game. The lions cannot and would never be able to put as much pressure on us given the players on their list they are much much slower whether you put us in 01-03 or 17-20

- We had the longest consecutive wins at the MCG in history with 22. You can arguably say we played the MCG better than any team that’s existed. So I don’t think Lions could beat us at the MCG. I think they only have a chance at their home ground. And it’s not like we were slouches away, we also won a flag playing the whole season in Queensland.

- Our gamestyle improves in wet weather conditions and finals due to the inherit scrappiness/increased pressure of the games. This is what being the pressure kings does. During our era we were considered essentially unbeatable in the wet, they did also call us the wet weather kings. Our finals record compared to H&A was also much superior.

- As mentioned previously, balance in the team. If you look at our forward line for example we have many ways of scoring, we have the pressure king mosquito fleet, 2 key pillars in prime T Lynch and Riewoldt which is better than prime A Lynch and young Jono Brown and Chuck in Dusty a medium forward that will randomly go forward to cause mismatches, Lions simply do not have enough types of defenders to cover all those ways of scoring.

- Lions never won a minor premiership. So they weren’t that dominant in H&A. We did win a minor premiership.

- We had better Top Liners than them, on top of that they were around the ground not just the midfield.

Top 5 players from each dynasty team:

Rich:

Dusty (best big game/finals player arguably ever)

Rance (top 2 defender of the AFL era),

Riewoldt (2nd best forward of the 4 dynasty teams behind buddy, Hawkins and Brown were too young)

Lynch (Great player, he makes the 2 pillar fwd combo beastly)

Cotchin (Triple flag captain with a Brownlow, ultimate team player who sacrificed his own game for the team. Tough nut as well)

Lions:

Black, Voss, Aker, A Lynch, Lappin

So we are going into the game with the best forward, best big game player, best defender, best 2 KPF combo and best small forward line. I don’t think it’s a contest tbh.

 

[PhatBoy]

OMG, again for the hundredth time, Richmonds ONE WOOD vs Brisbains ONE WOOD = Richmond would destroy Brisbane.
Brisbane wouldnt know what to do from the chaos.

What is more remarkable is that Richmond did it with minimal high-end draft picks.
While Brisbane, Sydney got gifted big time.

it makes what the tigers achieved all the more amazing.

No they wouldn’t.

 

[PhatBoy]

What I don’t think you realise is the following:

- Richmond 17-20 are the pressure kings of AFL/VFL history. To the point that they had to create a pressure meter to figure out how we were winning games despite losing the main key indicators like clearances etc. Nowadays if you get a reading over 200 on the pressure meter you win the game. The lions cannot and would never be able to put as much pressure on us given the players on their list they are much much slower whether you put us in 01-03 or 17-20

- We had the longest consecutive wins at the MCG in history with 22. You can arguably say we played the MCG better than any team that’s existed. So I don’t think Lions could beat us at the MCG. I think they only have a chance at their home ground. And it’s not like we were slouches away, we also won a flag playing the whole season in Queensland.

- Our gamestyle improves in wet weather conditions and finals due to the inherit scrappiness/increased pressure of the games. This is what being the pressure kings does. During our era we were considered essentially unbeatable in the wet, they did also call us the wet weather kings. Our finals record compared to H&A was also much superior.

- As mentioned previously, balance in the team. If you look at our forward line for example we have many ways of scoring, we have the pressure king mosquito fleet, 2 key pillars in prime T Lynch and Riewoldt which is better than prime A Lynch and young Jono Brown and Chuck in Dusty a medium forward that will randomly go forward to cause mismatches, Lions simply do not have enough types of defenders to cover all those ways of scoring.

- Lions never won a minor premiership. So they weren’t that dominant in H&A. We did win a minor premiership.

- We had better Top Liners than them, on top of that they were around the ground not just the midfield.

Top 5 players from each dynasty team:

Rich:

Dusty (best big game/finals player arguably ever)

Rance (top 2 defender of the AFL era),

Riewoldt (2nd best forward of the 4 dynasty teams behind buddy, Hawkins and Brown were too young)

Lynch (Great player, he makes the 2 pillar fwd combo beastly)

Cotchin (Triple flag captain with a Brownlow, ultimate team player who sacrificed his own game for the team. Tough nut as well)

Lions:

Black, Voss, Aker, A Lynch, Lappin

So we are going into the game with the best forward, best big game player, best defender, best 2 KPF combo and best small forward line. I don’t think it’s a contest tbh.

Couldn’t be more pleased for you.

You’d still get your arse kicked and Richmond fans are the only people who disagree.

 

[Vassp]

What I don’t think you realise is the following:

- Richmond 17-20 are the pressure kings of AFL/VFL history. To the point that they had to create a pressure meter to figure out how we were winning games despite losing the main key indicators like clearances etc. Nowadays if you get a reading over 200 on the pressure meter you win the game. The lions cannot and would never be able to put as much pressure on us given the players on their list they are much much slower whether you put us in 01-03 or 17-20

- We had the longest consecutive wins at the MCG in history with 22. You can arguably say we played the MCG better than any team that’s existed. So I don’t think Lions could beat us at the MCG. I think they only have a chance at their home ground. And it’s not like we were slouches away, we also won a flag playing the whole season in Queensland.

- Our gamestyle improves in wet weather conditions and finals due to the inherit scrappiness/increased pressure of the games. This is what being the pressure kings does. During our era we were considered essentially unbeatable in the wet, they did also call us the wet weather kings. Our finals record compared to H&A was also much superior.

- As mentioned previously, balance in the team. If you look at our forward line for example we have many ways of scoring, we have the pressure king mosquito fleet, 2 key pillars in prime T Lynch and Riewoldt which is better than prime A Lynch and young Jono Brown and Chuck in Dusty a medium forward that will randomly go forward to cause mismatches, Lions simply do not have enough types of defenders to cover all those ways of scoring.

- Lions never won a minor premiership. So they weren’t that dominant in H&A. We did win a minor premiership.

- We had better Top Liners than them, on top of that they were around the ground not just the midfield.

Top 5 players from each dynasty team:

Rich:

Dusty (best big game/finals player arguably ever)

Rance (top 2 defender of the AFL era),

Riewoldt (2nd best forward of the 4 dynasty teams behind buddy, Hawkins and Brown were too young)

Lynch (Great player, he makes the 2 pillar fwd combo beastly)

Cotchin (Triple flag captain with a Brownlow, ultimate team player who sacrificed his own game for the team. Tough nut as well)

Lions:

Black, Voss, Aker, A Lynch, Lappin

So we are going into the game with the best forward, best big game player, best defender, best 2 KPF combo and best small forward line. I don’t think it’s a contest tbh.

you forgot, houli AA, edwards AA, grimes AA, Vlaustin AA, Lambert, Prestia .. not too shabby of a team.

 

[STRONGandBALD]

Couldn’t be more pleased for you.

You’d still get your arse kicked and Richmond fans are the only people who disagree.

I’ll just default to lethal and leave it there. Watch from 2:10

 

[Toppa]

What I don’t think you realise is the following:

- Richmond 17-20 are the pressure kings of AFL/VFL history. To the point that they had to create a pressure meter to figure out how we were winning games despite losing the main key indicators like clearances etc. Nowadays if you get a reading over 200 on the pressure meter you win the game. The lions cannot and would never be able to put as much pressure on us given the players on their list they are much much slower whether you put us in 01-03 or 17-20

- We had the longest consecutive wins at the MCG in history with 22. You can arguably say we played the MCG better than any team that’s existed. So I don’t think Lions could beat us at the MCG. I think they only have a chance at their home ground. And it’s not like we were slouches away, we also won a flag playing the whole season in Queensland.

- Our gamestyle improves in wet weather conditions and finals due to the inherit scrappiness/increased pressure of the games. This is what being the pressure kings does. During our era we were considered essentially unbeatable in the wet, they did also call us the wet weather kings. Our finals record compared to H&A was also much superior.

- As mentioned previously, balance in the team. If you look at our forward line for example we have many ways of scoring, we have the pressure king mosquito fleet, 2 key pillars in prime T Lynch and Riewoldt which is better than prime A Lynch and young Jono Brown and Chuck in Dusty a medium forward that will randomly go forward to cause mismatches, Lions simply do not have enough types of defenders to cover all those ways of scoring.

- Lions never won a minor premiership. So they weren’t that dominant in H&A. We did win a minor premiership.

- We had better Top Liners than them, on top of that they were around the ground not just the midfield.

Top 5 players from each dynasty team:

Rich:

Dusty (best big game/finals player arguably ever)

Rance (top 2 defender of the AFL era),

Riewoldt (2nd best forward of the 4 dynasty teams behind buddy, Hawkins and Brown were too young)

Lynch (Great player, he makes the 2 pillar fwd combo beastly)

Cotchin (Triple flag captain with a Brownlow, ultimate team player who sacrificed his own game for the team. Tough nut as well)

Lions:

Black, Voss, Aker, A Lynch, Lappin

So we are going into the game with the best forward, best big game player, best defender, best 2 KPF combo and best small forward line. I don’t think it’s a contest tbh.

Couldn't disagree more.

That lions side has comfortably more high end quality than the tigers did. And that lions team would bully richmond around the ball.

Mids = lions easily
Backs = lions
Fwds = pretty close so id say a draw.

Voss, lappin, aker, black, power, johnson, leppitsch, bradshaw, brown, lynch, scott twins run rings around the tigers side.

On top of that they beat stronger competition.

Not finishing on top of the ladder doesn't mean anything - they won 3 in a row, played in 4 as interstate team travelling every 2nd week which infinitely harder than what the tiges achieved

 

[STRONGandBALD]

Couldn't disagree more.

That lions side has comfortably more high end quality than the tigers did. And that lions team would bully richmond around the ball.

Mids = lions easily
Backs = lions
Fwds = pretty close so id say a draw.

Voss, lappin, aker, black, power, johnson, leppitsch, bradshaw, brown, lynch, scott twins run rings around the tigers side.

On top of that they beat stronger competition.

Not finishing on top of the ladder doesn't mean anything - they won 3 in a row, played in 4 as interstate team travelling every 2nd week which infinitely harder than what the tiges achieved

Nah our fwd line is much better, both talent wise and strategic wise. Mids yeah lions is better.

Backs I don’t think so but it’s debatable , we have Rance up our sleeve and a much more attacking backline. Back then it was more lockdown. Overall team wise an attacking HB line is better.

Also you are forgetting they cannot bully us due to giving away to many free kick. So they lost their advantage back then so it’s another advantage to us.

We won a whole season away including beating the minor premiers interstate. Lions didn’t do anything like that.

Do you acknowledge the fact Lethal said we are better, you know the actual coach of that team? Doesn’t factor into your decision making at all?

 

[PrinceCharles]

What I don’t think you realise is the following:

- Richmond 17-20 are the pressure kings of AFL/VFL history. To the point that they had to create a pressure meter to figure out how we were winning games despite losing the main key indicators like clearances etc. Nowadays if you get a reading over 200 on the pressure meter you win the game. The lions cannot and would never be able to put as much pressure on us given the players on their list they are much much slower whether you put us in 01-03 or 17-20

- We had the longest consecutive wins at the MCG in history with 22. You can arguably say we played the MCG better than any team that’s existed. So I don’t think Lions could beat us at the MCG. I think they only have a chance at their home ground. And it’s not like we were slouches away, we also won a flag playing the whole season in Queensland.

- Our gamestyle improves in wet weather conditions and finals due to the inherit scrappiness/increased pressure of the games. This is what being the pressure kings does. During our era we were considered essentially unbeatable in the wet, they did also call us the wet weather kings. Our finals record compared to H&A was also much superior.

- As mentioned previously, balance in the team. If you look at our forward line for example we have many ways of scoring, we have the pressure king mosquito fleet, 2 key pillars in prime T Lynch and Riewoldt which is better than prime A Lynch and young Jono Brown and Chuck in Dusty a medium forward that will randomly go forward to cause mismatches, Lions simply do not have enough types of defenders to cover all those ways of scoring.

- Lions never won a minor premiership. So they weren’t that dominant in H&A. We did win a minor premiership.

- We had better Top Liners than them, on top of that they were around the ground not just the midfield.

Top 5 players from each dynasty team:

Rich:

Dusty (best big game/finals player arguably ever)

Rance (top 2 defender of the AFL era),

Riewoldt (2nd best forward of the 4 dynasty teams behind buddy, Hawkins and Brown were too young)

Lynch (Great player, he makes the 2 pillar fwd combo beastly)

Cotchin (Triple flag captain with a Brownlow, ultimate team player who sacrificed his own game for the team. Tough nut as well)

Lions:

Black, Voss, Aker, A Lynch, Lappin

So we are going into the game with the best forward, best big game player, best defender, best 2 KPF combo and best small forward line. I don’t think it’s a contest tbh.

Lions would have destroyed you.