Mega Thread Port Forum 'General AFL Talk' Thread Part 9

[powermacs]

The profile pic ******* kills me hahahahahaha

Believe me, it’s even funnier if you know my dad.

What are you ****ing looking at stupid!!

 

[powermacs]

Still waiting, Fages.

 

[OneGreatClub]

So very strong rumours Lynch has agreed to terms with the Hawks.
Watch out the rest of the comp if that happens

 

[LFC2010]

Steven May only 1 game. I thought his season was over. Lucky he didn't break Curnow's jaw. Apparently the same level of offence as Robbie Gray.

And apparently having a bad record has no weight in this system anymore.

What a farce.

 

[finbarr]

So very strong rumours Lynch has agreed to terms with the Hawks.
Watch out the rest of the comp if that happens

The Hawks should be selling off a heap of players and getting balls deep into the draft. This will only draw out the slide a few years longer, meaning they'll slowly slide down a hill rather then plummet off a cliff.

 

[LFC2010]

So very strong rumours Lynch has agreed to terms with the Hawks.
Watch out the rest of the comp if that happens

Coincidence much. Evans cough, cough!!

 

[pip_]

So very strong rumours Lynch has agreed to terms with the Hawks.
Watch out the rest of the comp if that happens

Better Hawks than Richmond.

 

[PA88]

Whilst I can't give a comprehensive answer, I might be able to shed some light to this (I am a former SANFL League umpire who did quite a number of crows and magpies games, including finals and games where there were large free kick discrepancies against the AFL side).

I cant explain why there is a huge discrepancy and to be honest, umpires themselves don't really care (whole debate of whether free kick count needs to be even).

But you might find the following points interesting:
- I umpired the SANFL both before and after the AFL reserves side came in, and can also state very definitely that there was a very big change in the culture/attitude of players from the magpies between the two years. It went from being a genuinely club/culture of wanted to win at any cost, to something that is clearly now more about development. This can also be noticed from the fans. I remember being fearful at magpies games of walking off the field at Alberton, however after the merger I never felt safer. My point in this is that the players may be holding back a little. Players from Sturt in previous years genuinely put their head over the ball, play hard and tough football, where the Magpies were making grand finals purely on superior skill and run. That game style probably attracts less free kicks.

- It is very clear from multiple amounts of research and my own experience, is that loud home crowds have a definite un-conscious affect on umpire decisions. It's not huge, but given the magpies now play in front of very timid crowds and the crows barely draw one fan who isn't there just get a selfie, it is possible this is playing a small part.

- I once umpired a Sturt v Crows prelim final. The game was relatively evenish (from memory), although Sturt ended up winning by 5 goals. At the end of the game we saw there was something like a 20 free kick difference in favour of Sturt. There was a bit made about this in the media. In our review of our decisions we only really made maybe 2-3 errors between us. I can guarantee at no point was there any intentional bias in this match, nor is there any throughout the season.

- Almost all SANFL umpires are quite young, meaning almost all never really grew up following the SANFL. Majority are mainly Crows or Power fans (myself being Power). From that I can make the point that the umpires really do not care for the SANFL clubs, and really don't care if they are successful or not, in addition, none of these umpires care in the slightest about the AFL reserves side (personally am a big power fan, but I really couldn't care less about the power reserves/magpies side) nor could I care less if the crows reserves side would win. My only point in saying this. The SANFL umpires individually really couldn't care less about who wins or loses.

Thanks for expressing your experience and view on this.

I don't think the care factor of the Magpies players is less. It could be because they're younger players and inexperienced but from my weekly observations I strongly believe there are umpires that are not fair dinkum. There's been about a 60+ differential of frees against the Magpies each year since the reserves concept. The crows similar. In 2014 we were 66 frees down by the end of that year and the Magpies were an experienced and serious team that year.

 

[RossFC]

 

[finbarr]

Is that Judd at the end trying to pretend he has a personality?

 

[tribey]

Marry me and take half my stuff, Caro <3

 

[butchyboy101]

Thanks for expressing your experience and view on this.

I don't think the care factor of the Magpies players is less. It could be because they're younger players and inexperienced but from my weekly observations I strongly believe there are umpires that are not fair dinkum. There's been about a 60+ differential of frees against the Magpies each year since the reserves concept. The crows similar. In 2014 we were 66 frees down by the end of that year and the Magpies were an experienced and serious team that year.

Not wanting to be disrespectful/aggressive, but being out in the middle in 2013 was very different to 2014. I know there are some fans who still think/believe differently and that's all well and good, but unfortunately it was a huge change. I'm not meaning that to get into a magpies v power debate, just suggesting in my mind, it may partially (not all) explain why there is a free kick differential.

In terms of umpire being fair dinkum I guess I ask specifically what you allege? For me it could be one of the following:

1. SANFL umpires are all crows fans who hate port: True that at least 50% of umpires are crows fans, but that wouldn't explain why the crows have a far worse differential?

2. Umpires are SANFL lovers who secretly hate the AFL sides: almost all SANFL umpires don't like/care about any SANFL side. Most are under 30 and typical of this generation think and know the SANFL is a second rate competition.

3. The SANFL are coercing/forcing umpires to ensure the AFL sides are not competitive: The SANFL aren't quite as incompetent as we Port fans think they are (close but not quite), however the SANFL are no way near competent enough to pull something like that off. Remember there is betting on SANFL matches, as well as very strict laws around match fixing. Do you honestly think someone like me would risk the huge fines, possible jail time to fix a game in reality means very little to very few people these days?

The mentality of an umpire is probably not quite well understood. Im as big of a Port fan as they come (well I use to be anyway), but would comfortably umpire all of the Power boys without a shred of bias. I remember having an argument with Robbie Gray coming back from injury one time and paying two 50m penalties against him. I also remember paying a free kick against Daniel Flynn in a semi final between Port v Norwood which pretty much cost Port the game (also incorrectly did not award Nathan Krakouer a mark in the goal square in the 3rd quarter, which cost them a goal). Teams become irrelevant, and you simply react to what you see, I suggest you give it a go one day.

 

[It Just Is]

Bang! Surely Gill’s days of blundering are numbered.

The fixturing of Showdowns and Derbies is one of my biggest gripes. Remember in round 6 when the first ever Derby at the new Perth Stadium and one of the best games of the year was relegated to Sunday afternoon and Carlton played St Kilda that Friday night? In fact the showdown and derby are arguably the two best games of the year so far.

The biggest joke of it all is that they are playing the 2nd derby and showdown in the exact same time slot as the first. It’s not a quirk of the fixture, it’s intentional that we play Saturday afternoon.

 

[philthy05]

Thanks for your input, but I disagree

The numbers just don’t lie. There is a large enough sample size to erase any outlier effect.

Also all the talk of magpie players not caring or the crowd not influencing I think is utter bullshit.

Snelling gets frees at west Adelaide, dons magpies guernsey gets less. Kirkwood gets few frees at port goes elsewhere gets more.

The simplest answer is usually the correct one, and in this case the simplest answer is that the sanfl hates the afl teams. I mean we know that as a fact. So In some way that is having an effect on how we are umpired. How you want to suggest that happens is up to you but it’s there.

 

[edgie]

Robbie Gray played SANFL?

Sent from mTalk

 

[PowerBaz]

He’s not a scratch on his uncle. Doesn’t come close.

 

[butchyboy101]

Thanks for your input, but I disagree

The numbers just don’t lie. There is a large enough sample size to erase any outlier effect.

Also all the talk of magpie players not caring or the crowd not influencing I think is utter bullshit.

Snelling gets frees at west Adelaide, dons magpies guernsey gets less. Kirkwood gets few frees at port goes elsewhere gets more.

The simplest answer is usually the correct one, and in this case the simplest answer is that the sanfl hates the afl teams. I mean we know that as a fact. So In some way that is having an effect on how we are umpired. How you want to suggest that happens is up to you but it’s there.

It's not that Magpies players don't care. It's that they care far more about getting a spot in the A grade then they do about a Magpies premiership and winning. I'm not privy to the inner sanctum of the team, however the feeling I always got from them was one that was very similar to that of a regular SANFL clubs reserve team. Of course they care, of course they go in 100%, but it is different to a lot of the other regular SANFL teams. The only exception I believe was possibly Stephen Summerton.

Probably wont go further than that, as dont really want to continuously debate whether a bunch of amateur umpires getting paid $300 per game are involved in high level match fixing for a match very few people care about which would probably send them to jail because a few executives in the SANFL "dont like them." Keep calm, carry on!

 

[PowerBaz]

Bang! Surely Gill’s days of blundering are numbered.

The fixturing of Showdowns and Derbies is one of my biggest gripes. Remember in round 6 when the first ever Derby at the new Perth Stadium and one of the best games of the year was relegated to Sunday afternoon and Carlton played St Kilda that Friday night? In fact the showdown and derby are arguably the two best games of the year so far.

The biggest joke of it all is that they are playing the 2nd derby and showdown in the exact same time slot as the first. It’s not a quirk of the fixture, it’s intentional that we play Saturday afternoon.

VFL

 

[The Rubber Man]

Whilst I can't give a comprehensive answer, I might be able to shed some light to this (I am a former SANFL League umpire who did quite a number of crows and magpies games, including finals and games where there were large free kick discrepancies against the AFL side).

I cant explain why there is a huge discrepancy and to be honest, umpires themselves don't really care (whole debate of whether free kick count needs to be even).

But you might find the following points interesting:
- I umpired the SANFL both before and after the AFL reserves side came in, and can also state very definitely that there was a very big change in the culture/attitude of players from the magpies between the two years. It went from being a genuinely club/culture of wanted to win at any cost, to something that is clearly now more about development. This can also be noticed from the fans. I remember being fearful at magpies games of walking off the field at Alberton, however after the merger I never felt safer. My point in this is that the players may be holding back a little. Players from Sturt in previous years genuinely put their head over the ball, play hard and tough football, where the Magpies were making grand finals purely on superior skill and run. That game style probably attracts less free kicks.

- It is very clear from multiple amounts of research and my own experience, is that loud home crowds have a definite un-conscious affect on umpire decisions. It's not huge, but given the magpies now play in front of very timid crowds and the crows barely draw one fan who isn't there just get a selfie, it is possible this is playing a small part.

- I once umpired a Sturt v Crows prelim final. The game was relatively evenish (from memory), although Sturt ended up winning by 5 goals. At the end of the game we saw there was something like a 20 free kick difference in favour of Sturt. There was a bit made about this in the media. In our review of our decisions we only really made maybe 2-3 errors between us. I can guarantee at no point was there any intentional bias in this match, nor is there any throughout the season.

- Almost all SANFL umpires are quite young, meaning almost all never really grew up following the SANFL. Majority are mainly Crows or Power fans (myself being Power). From that I can make the point that the umpires really do not care for the SANFL clubs, and really don't care if they are successful or not, in addition, none of these umpires care in the slightest about the AFL reserves side (personally am a big power fan, but I really couldn't care less about the power reserves/magpies side) nor could I care less if the crows reserves side would win. My only point in saying this. The SANFL umpires individually really couldn't care less about who wins or loses.

you're a legend. Thanks for the response. The amount of eye rolling i do when i see threads saying there is an AFL agenda against interstate sides which is carried out by biased umpiring is ridiculous. Hopefully your post can get through to the nuffies.

 

[PA88]

Not wanting to be disrespectful/aggressive, but being out in the middle in 2013 was very different to 2014. I know there are some fans who still think/believe differently and that's all well and good, but unfortunately it was a huge change. I'm not meaning that to get into a magpies v power debate, just suggesting in my mind, it may partially (not all) explain why there is a free kick differential.

In terms of umpire being fair dinkum I guess I ask specifically what you allege? For me it could be one of the following:

1. SANFL umpires are all crows fans who hate port: True that at least 50% of umpires are crows fans, but that wouldn't explain why the crows have a far worse differential?

2. Umpires are SANFL lovers who secretly hate the AFL sides: almost all SANFL umpires don't like/care about any SANFL side. Most are under 30 and typical of this generation think and know the SANFL is a second rate competition.

3. The SANFL are coercing/forcing umpires to ensure the AFL sides are not competitive: The SANFL aren't quite as incompetent as we Port fans think they are (close but not quite), however the SANFL are no way near competent enough to pull something like that off. Remember there is betting on SANFL matches, as well as very strict laws around match fixing. Do you honestly think someone like me would risk the huge fines, possible jail time to fix a game in reality means very little to very few people these days?

The mentality of an umpire is probably not quite well understood. Im as big of a Port fan as they come (well I use to be anyway), but would comfortably umpire all of the Power boys without a shred of bias. I remember having an argument with Robbie Gray coming back from injury one time and paying two 50m penalties against him. I also remember paying a free kick against Daniel Flynn in a semi final between Port v Norwood which pretty much cost Port the game (also incorrectly did not award Nathan Krakouer a mark in the goal square in the 3rd quarter, which cost them a goal). Teams become irrelevant, and you simply react to what you see, I suggest you give it a go one day.

I don't know what to place it down to but I can only comment on what I observe and I'm not confident about their integrity. I was a referee of soccer and I believe strongly that the referee in control is capable of strategically making bias decsions.

Anyway thanks for adding your explanation.

 

[philthy05]

It's not that Magpies players don't care. It's that they care far more about getting a spot in the A grade then they do about a Magpies premiership and winning. I'm not privy to the inner sanctum of the team, however the feeling I always got from them was one that was very similar to that of a regular SANFL clubs reserve team. Of course they care, of course they go in 100%, but it is different to a lot of the other regular SANFL teams. The only exception I believe was possibly Stephen Summerton.

Probably wont go further than that, as dont really want to continuously debate whether a bunch of amateur umpires getting paid $300 per game are involved in high level match fixing for a match very few people care about which would probably send them to jail because a few executives in the SANFL "dont like them." Keep calm, carry on!

I’m not and have seen no one accuse umpires of match fixing. And let’s be realistic here. There could be a 30-1 game and no court or body is going to charge an umpire with match fixing unless they have money changing hands which is not the issue.

What we do know is that -200 frees is wrong. It is way to far out across such a big sample size against so much data (many teams across many years) replicated against both afl teams.

What we do know is that the sanfl dislikes the afl teams and does not want them to be competitive in the sanfl

How we get from there to here is anyone’s guess, but those two facts are inescapable. The difference between the magpies team being win first and development cannot have the effect you claim to this scale. The evidence is staggering ie is the free disparity ever replicated by other development first teams? Ie Melbourne or Carlton? A bottom sanfl team? Never. Never ever.

 

[Steve Dore]

Bang! Surely Gill’s days of blundering are numbered. ..

We are stuck with Gilligan as CEO of the AFL because there is no higher position in the AFL he can be promoted to.

Laurie Peter says hi

... The biggest joke of it all is that they are playing the 2nd derby and showdown in the exact same time slot as the first. It’s not a quirk of the fixture, it’s intentional that we play Saturday afternoon.

Yes, it is very intentional. The AFL know that the Showdown will get a huge crowd and a huge TV audience in SA regardless of the time slot so they schedule it in the shittiest time slot they can.

 

[Ishikawa]

It's not that Magpies players don't care. It's that they care far more about getting a spot in the A grade then they do about a Magpies premiership and winning. I'm not privy to the inner sanctum of the team, however the feeling I always got from them was one that was very similar to that of a regular SANFL clubs reserve team. Of course they care, of course they go in 100%, but it is different to a lot of the other regular SANFL teams. The only exception I believe was possibly Stephen Summerton.

Probably wont go further than that, as dont really want to continuously debate whether a bunch of amateur umpires getting paid $300 per game are involved in high level match fixing for a match very few people care about which would probably send them to jail because a few executives in the SANFL "dont like them." Keep calm, carry on!

Thanks a lot for bringing some rationality to the discussion, see some utter lunatic comments about umpires in the AFL, SANFL (and WAFL for that matter). I'm glad someone has spoken out and cut down the conspiracy theorists with some realism. 90% of hardcore fans at any football club are convinced the umpires are conspiring against them, you only would have to read parallel game day threads on bigfooty to see that this plays out every week.

Like players, they are human and at times will make mistakes in the heat of the moment. As with any human being, depending on their individual personality they will have a tendency to react differently to things like

• External noise from the crowd
• Having a personal connection with a person they are arbitrating over
• Context of the game

This highlights the strength in knowing your personality and importance of subsequent coaching to ensure you are aware of these things and can remain in a state of impartiality. These conflicts are played out week to week with virtual volunteers in every local league right through to he highest level. I can see why there is a bit of reluctance to make it a full time profession (many would have to give up their day job for a relatively short career-span) and I don't know what salaries are like, but the more time and reward compensated for dedication to mastering that is a good thing.

The umpires I know (from ones at relatively lower levels up to WAFL) have a common personality trait of having great pride in their impartiality. Yes some of these same people may simultaneously exhibit painful righteousness, be excessively officious and enjoy being the centre of attention but there is zero question that their underlying intent is impartial. People caught up in it love to make out that footy rivalries and arguments are the be all and end all, but the reality is outside the bigfooty bubble is that the majority just don't give a ****.

 

[Enviable Tradition]

Thanks for your input, but I disagree

The numbers just don’t lie. There is a large enough sample size to erase any outlier effect.

Also all the talk of magpie players not caring or the crowd not influencing I think is utter bullshit.

Snelling gets frees at west Adelaide, dons magpies guernsey gets less. Kirkwood gets few frees at port goes elsewhere gets more.

The simplest answer is usually the correct one, and in this case the simplest answer is that the sanfl hates the afl teams. I mean we know that as a fact. So In some way that is having an effect on how we are umpired. How you want to suggest that happens is up to you but it’s there.

I guess the other option could be that the SANFL umpires have a conscious or subconscious resentment towards the AFL for not selecting them at that level and take it out on the AFL reserves.

Whatever it is the numbers don't lie.

I am quite rational about umpiring (game day threads aside) and have been able to rationalize the results at AFL level, especially to my Dad who is a big umpire conspiracy theorist). But I find the results at SANFL level very hard to rationalize.

Also if these results were present in any other league an enquiry would be launched. So whilst it might not be evidence that the SANFL are conspiring to create the result they are at least complicit in taking no action to rectify it.

Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk

 

[Steve Dore]

.... Whatever it is the numbers don't lie. ..

Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk

They don't lie but what are they really telling us ?