Autopsy Post Mortem vs Sydney. What a thriller! Pies by a point

[4tone]

Maynes contract is so unusual it must be part vof a deal yet to materialize...... eg Fyfe.

I hope so anyway.

That deal would more complex than the current situation in Syria. I'm saying straight up, this year he will be close to pendle pay level, next year it will be a quarter of it and then delisted, pay out peanuts the last 2 years. Jesus WTF were they thinking.

 

[Scodog10]

I don't think he kicked in very well. The short kick to the pocket is the only one he pulled off and I think that's a kick that heaps pressure on the side up field. It allows the opposition to set up the zone and squeeze the next kick. All of Reid, Ramsay and Howe should have that responsibility ahead of Goldsack.

It's the worst kick in footy and it seems our go to play more often than not. There's a reason the opposition allows it because they can fold their zone across and funnel you into one side of the ground. If they manage to win the next contest they then have the outnumber on the outside.

The option only works if the receiving player is awake and immediately switches to the free player in the opposite pocket opening up the ground again before the opposition can reset the zone. We never do that so it's a terrible kick in option for us. The two we never use enough are the long down the middle and the play on to yourself.

One thing we forget is that movement creates movement so the play on is the one we need to utilise more. As soon as you use it you draw in the defensive number allowing for the overlap making it easier to get the next kick out the back. Unfortunately our kick ins appear more a chore than a concerted opportunity to create from a free possession!

 

[4tone]

Keep to the topic please guys.

I am still gobsmacked by that first quarter. The fact that Sydney had so many inexperienced kids who couldn't stop the rampage is a valid point, but they also had a premiership coach in charge. We were coached to control the first quarter, and it worked, although it could have worked better with conversion. I'm now looking forward to the Saints game, and with Jamie back in, we could finally be on the up.

I don't think it was a major factor, watching from the stands it was like hand to hand combat, all contested ball was in tight it was midfield vs midfield, Jack Kennedy, Parker, Hanneberry that some serious players. The Swans younger guys were generally forwards and that was how the set ups were more traditional in that forwards were forwards backs were back. Every single structure every transition every effort was near perfect. That quarter Against the GWS would of been the same result. It was disappointing, should of been 10 goals up at quarter time it was that good. At some point we will see that same footy, hopefully for a full 4 quarters, with the full best 22 against a powerful team, it will be a beautiful thing.

 

[Kirby]

The strange thing was the bookies having Sydney clear favourites.
$3.50 on offer last week, didn't make ant sense to me.
A few people cleaned up.

Despite being a punter I don't bet on the footy but I told quite a few people last week that we were at ridiculously long odds and to get on. I hope they cleaned up!

 

[doodles98]

It's the worst kick in footy and it seems our go to play more often than not. There's a reason the opposition allows it because they can fold their zone across and funnel you into one side of the ground. If they manage to win the next contest they then have the outnumber on the outside.

The option only works if the receiving player is awake and immediately switches to the free player in the opposite pocket opening up the ground again before the opposition can reset the zone. We never do that so it's a terrible kick in option for us. The two we never use enough are the long down the middle and the play on to yourself.

One thing we forget is that movement creates movement so the play on is the one we need to utilise more. As soon as you use it you draw in the defensive number allowing for the overlap making it easier to get the next kick out the back. Unfortunately our kick ins appear more a chore than a concerted opportunity to create from a free possession!

been the case for several years now. disappointing not to see it improve.

 

[76woodenspooners]

I am still gobsmacked by that first quarter. The fact that Sydney had so many inexperienced kids who couldn't stop the rampage is a valid point, but they also had a premiership coach in charge. We were coached to control the first quarter, and it worked, although it could have worked better with conversion. I'm now looking forward to the Saints game, and with Jamie back in, we could finally be on the up.

Our first quarter was fantastic. But it concerned me that we didn't get more reward on the score board for the dominance we had. I think we place too much emphasis on getting numbers to the forward line to hold the ball in. As a result we congest our forward half and make it hard to generate clean goal scoring opportunities.

The first 1 minute 20 of John Longmire's press conference was quite revealing ( http://www.afl.com.au/video/2017-04-07/full-postmatch-swans )

In summary, he said that in the first quarter they were playing on from the backline and banging it out, Collingwood were cutting it off and sending it back in there. They addressed it at quarter time - they just needed to be more composed getting the ball out of their back half, and once they did that, they won the rest of the game by 20 points. The problem was that they were 21 points down at quarter time.

 

[Scodog10]

been the case for several years now. disappointing not to see it improve.

I'd go as far as saying it's disappointing not to see it change let alone improve. Posters ask for specific issues with Buckley's coaching and this one is glaringly obvious to me. We've had three ball movement coaches in Buckley's time (Lappin>Grace>Sando) yet nothing has changed about how we exit D50 except for the individual given the responsibility. That's clearly a top down issue.

There are two situations in game where it's black and white that you get possession, when a point is kicked and out on the full. The rest of the time there's no guarantee that you'll have possession because marks can be dropped, players fumble at ground level and free kicks can be missed. Therefore why there isn't specific NFL type play calling has me beat because the opposition is effectively saying here have the ball!

When there's a set shot you have up to 30 seconds for the designated kicker to call the play (approx the same time on an NFL play clock) yet it just doesn't happen. It boggles the mind given zones are just standard dime formations and clubs send coaches to the states all the time. This isn't a specifically Buckley issue either. It's just that for once in his tenure I would love Buckley to be ahead of the game and this is a clear area clubs can exploit because defensive zones press up too far, IMO.

Given how much the game has evolved this century kick ins are the one area that is still the same as they were 15-20 years ago...

 

[Leviathan Pie]

The kick ins were a problem last night. Goldsack is not the answer and it was dumb coaching.

I would like to see us take a run and bounce from the kick ins more often. Go for a contest on the wing and either win it or force it over for a stoppage. Not clean or pretty but we are a great stoppage team. I'd back us to win that stoppage a good portion of the time. I think it plays to our strengths.

To that end, does Dunn need to come in for kicking duties?

He was very good, Levi.

 

[cleomenes]

Schade's game reminds me of our Nathan Brown thrown to the wolves on Jonathon Brown years ago. He made some mistakes and Conceded a few (missed) shots at goal but played well. The fact that JB went goalless led to inflated descriptions of how well NB played, but that fact made NB's career and he never looked back. Schade conceded some shots that missed and the "no goals" fact overshadows the things he didn't do so well. This may make his career as well (or not).
Mayne does not draw my ire as he does for others on the board, but the two shots he has had for goal from inside 50 this year that have not made the distance are what concern me most. They may be aberrations, but he doesn't get that many shots, and so he can't afford to be kicking short of the target.
Reid seems out of sorts, but he has too good a history to write him off just yet. Who did he play on?
A better choice for kick ins than Goldsack is required. He misses too often.
The game plan worked very well against a zone type defence, less well when Sydney manned up. Some work on the tactics when teams man us up is needed. I don't have a solution for this, but it would seem to involve really good kicking and solid contested marking on the lead. Easy to say.
Fasolo's contested marking is excellent.
Hoskin-Elliott is already doing what he was recruited for. His marking, pace and accuracy in kicking are exactly what was needed.
Treloar is unjustly criticised on disposal efficiency. Many of his inaccurate kicks are blind roosts out of packs that other players would not even get a boot to. His efficieny when passing is not bad, although not perfect.
Phillips is young and gets the ball an awfull lot.

Despite all of these good signs, we have to accept (like 16 other clubs) that the next 10 years are going to be very hard. With nearly all of the best players from the last 5 years on GWS's list, and everyone forced to trade their future draft picks to get one or two of these, the competition looks to be set up as a GWS benefit for the forseeable future. The academy rules are exacerbating it. It's hard to see when a premiership might be available to any club without some extraordinary luck in the medium term future.

 

[76woodenspooners]

The strange thing was the bookies having Sydney clear favourites.
$3.50 on offer last week, didn't make ant sense to me.
A few people cleaned up.

Betting odds are based on subjective human judgements rather than objective metrics - and I'd imagine no more so than in footy betting.

I'd imagine cold, calculated analysts who don't follow a footy team probably do better than most in footy betting **



** The house always wins. People who play often and for long enough generally lose.

 

[JB1975]

Must be devastating.

What do I have to do to get him to ignore me?

Well you could start by trying to be less handsome, witty, and charming.

 

[Scodog10]

cleomenes hold fire on a GWS decade of dominance.

Heater, Mumford, Johnson, Deledio and Griffen are all a LTI away from retirement at their ages and FA opens up for them next year. Their "stars" from the draft underneath aren't getting the exposure they need to develop enough to keep up with outgoings.

They'll probably lose Kelly this year and I don't think FA will be kind to them so whilst theyll be in the mix over the next 3-5 years I'd hold fire on everyone playing for second beyond 2018.

 

[76woodenspooners]

I'd go as far as saying it's disappointing not to see it change let alone improve. Posters ask for specific issues with Buckley's coaching and this one is glaringly obvious to me. We've had three ball movement coaches in Buckley's time (Lappin>Grace>Sando) yet nothing has changed about how we exit D50 except for the individual given the responsibility. That's clearly a top down issue.

There are two situations in game where it's black and white that you get possession, when a point is kicked and out on the full. The rest of the time there's no guarantee that you'll have possession because marks can be dropped, players fumble at ground level and free kicks can be missed. Therefore why there isn't specific NFL type play calling has me beat because the opposition is effectively saying here have the ball!

When there's a set shot you have up to 30 seconds for the designated kicker to call the play (approx the same time on an NFL play clock) yet it just doesn't happen. It boggles the mind given zones are just standard dime formations and clubs send coaches to the states all the time. This isn't a specifically Buckley issue either. It's just that for once in his tenure I would love Buckley to be ahead of the game and this is a clear area clubs can exploit because defensive zones press up too far, IMO.

Given how much the game has evolved this century kick ins are the one area that is still the same as they were 15-20 years ago...

NFL is different in that it has areas of the field that are controlled by each team.

Contrast the AFL where anyone can go anywhere. Remember that tactic years ago when from a kick-in from a behind, the kick-in team would bundle up in the centre of the field, and then all rush to one side simultaneously. Worked a treat against teams that played man-on-man. And then teams quickly learnt that the best defence was to just bog up with backline with a zone defence.

Like you, surprised more teams haven't invested more effort on that. eg: develop designated kickers who can kick a torpedo reliably to send the ball over the back of zones.

 

[Scodog10]

NFL is different in that it has areas of the field that are controlled by each time.

Contrast the AFL where anyone can go anywhere. Remember that tactic years ago when from a kick-in from a behind, the kick-in team would bundle up in the centre of the field, and then all rush to one side simultaneously. Worked a treat against teams that played man-on-man. And then teams quickly learnt that the best defence was to just bog up with backline with a zone defence.

Like you, surprised more teams haven't invested more effort on that. eg: develop designated kickers who can kick a torpedo reliably to send the ball over the back of zones.

I beg to differ. Look at the set up of a line of scrimmage v a kick in. No one is ever defensively behind the kicker and the player is protected in the pocket as a QB is by the goal square so it's exactly like a line of scrimmage.

A dime setup is a zone. A shotgun package in the NFL is designed to get beyond that zone and whilst it won't be successful on every occasion specific play calling will be more beneficial than our current haphazard approach.

I'm also not talking about masses of numbers either awaiting a Hail Mary. I'm referring to two to three players in specific spots on the ground. Say three within a 10 metre radius 35 out on a 45 from goal. The idea of the zone is that you allow those players to be bunched there because if you pull a player out to provide coverage it opens up space in another area which then gives you two options from the kick in. Say you choose the bunched numbers and hit any of them the other two can be used as overlap runners and the next possession will be beyond the zone.

Ignoring it out of hand saying it was tried and had negligible results is a closed minded view, IMO, and fits in nicely with the moaning we've seen about the third man up rule.

 

[76woodenspooners]

Mayne does not draw my ire as he does for others on the board, but the two shots he has had for goal from inside 50 this year that have not made the distance are what concern me most. They may be aberrations, but he doesn't get that many shots, and so he can't afford to be kicking short of the target.

It wasn't just that his 40m set shots didn't make the distance (that in itself was bad enough) but also that he clearly thought he would make the distance, and that his team-mates thought he would (they hadn't prepared for the ball falling short). Mayne's reaction after the kick wasn't of somebody who had fluffed it off the boot. At the SCG on Friday night there was no wind to speak of.

A player, especially a mature player, needs to understand their own limitations.

IMO he needs to be dropped just for that and replaced by, well, anybody.

 

[Anzacday]

It wasn't just that his 40m set shots didn't make the distance (that in itself was bad enough) but also that he clearly thought he would make the distance, and that his team-mates thought he would (they hadn't prepared for the ball falling short). Mayne's reaction after the kick wasn't of somebody who had fluffed it off the boot. At the SCG on Friday night there was no wind to speak of.

A player, especially a mature player, needs to understand their own limitations.

IMO he needs to be dropped just for that and replaced by Billy.

EFA, (anyone who saw him yesterday is left in no doubt).

PS: 76woodenspooners that wasn't a dig at you by the way and I know what you were saying.

 

[76woodenspooners]

I beg to differ. Look at the set up of a line of scrimmage v a kick in. No one is ever defensively behind the kicker and the player is protected in the pocket as a QB is by the goal square so it's exactly like a line of scrimmage.

A dime setup is a zone. A shotgun package in the NFL is designed to get beyond that zone and whilst it won't be successful on every occasion specific play calling will be more beneficial than our current haphazard approach.

I'm also not talking about masses of numbers either awaiting a Hail Mary. I'm referring to two to three players in specific spots on the ground. Say three within a 10 metre radius 35 out on a 45 from goal. The idea of the zone is that you allow those players to be bunched there because if you pull a player out to provide coverage it opens up space in another area which then gives you two options from the kick in. Say you choose the bunched numbers and hit any of them the other two can be used as overlap runners and the next possession will be beyond the zone.

Ignoring it out of hand saying it was tried and had negligible results is a closed minded view, IMO, and fits in nicely with the moaning we've seen about the third man up rule.

I agree with you about play calling (I've thought the same thing WRT to basketball, but hey, NFL is a good analogy as well).

I also agree with you that they could / should do more tactically to deal with the offensive kick-ins.

I just don't agree that NFL tactics necessarily translate into AFL. It's true that everything is happening in front of the QB / kickin, but at the snap in NFL you do have the two teams separated in the field of play - which in effect turns it into a dynamic situation. In AFL the defensive team can go wherever the offensive team can go - there's no separation.

 

[Lethal06]

Buddy and Reid had been red hot in Rds 1 & 2, so our defenders deserve massive credit for limiting the damage to just one goal between those two. Several times Buddy was a split-second away from kicking a goal, only to be denied by a desperate, goal-saving tackle or spoil. A great collective effort from our new-look defensive unit.

With Dunn, Scharenberg, Langdon, Keeffe, McLarty, Oxley and Sinclair all out of the team, our defensive stocks are looking much better and deeper than they first appeared after departures of Brown, Toovey, Williams, Frost & Marsh.

 

[HFF]

Preaching to the converted brother, was being sarcastic.

My bad PB
I hear you.

 

[Magpie Monopoly]

4 goals from 3 games at Bulldogs with 2 gimmes against the Swans with Beveridge now reconsidering his forward set-up. Hmmmmmm. He kicked 69 goals in 2013 under Bucks. Not the thread to discuss further.

Brings up Cloke - Then tells me in discussing Cloke in the wrong forum... yeah cool

 

[nahnah]

Must be devastating.

What do I have to do to get him to ignore me?

Honestly I'm not that sure, maybe be slightly critical of the club and Aish? Not really sure, you're gonna have to ask him

 

[TradeDraft]

The best thing out of this match, was not only the win of course, but this much maligned backline, that will struggle to hold sides with a big power forward. Well they held to power forwards on Friday night. One is one of the best forwards of all time, and the other kicked 6 the week before. So to see Franklin and Reid kicking 1 goal between them was beautiful to watch.

Schade could just turn out to be one of the recruits of the year. He dosent get flustered to easy, and looks to be a head down, bum up type, that will take on any challenge he is given.

Backline is NOT the Problem it's the Forward Line is

 

[Cousin of Daicos]

Continuing to hear this "young Sydney" narrative is kinda annoying when we only had 2 less players who have played less than 50 games than them.

Except the difference is, we weren't a Top 4 side last year.

 

[doodles98]

Well you could start by trying to be less handsome, witty, and charming.

Hard for the leopard to change its spots JB

 

[doodles98]

Honestly I'm not that sure, maybe be slightly critical of the club and Aish? Not really sure, you're gonna have to ask him

Aish you say!
Bit sensitive there is he. Righto.. off to the Aish thread I go.