Preview Qualifying Final - Sydney Swans vs GWS Giants

[Wazowski]

It pretty obvious imo. Adams has not been dropped all season. Horse won't drop him now.

Like how Mcdonald wasn’t dropped until the 22 GF?


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

 

[caesar88]

Not sure if I fully buy that. Didn’t he make 6 tackles in basically a quarter in his first game back?


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

Against North, in the stoppages.

It's different in general play like forward 50 where it's often 1v1 and your opponent has more time for a disposal that you need to try and rush, or space that you need to try and close.

 

[Kbroome]

Against North, in the stoppages.

It's different in general play like forward 50 where it's often 1v1 and your opponent has more time for a disposal that you need to try and rush, or space that you need to try and close.

I think reference pointing to 4 weeks ago and not 6 is pretty disingenuous to Parker considering the 3 weeks prior to that he laid 11 tackles. Given that the other small forwards for the Swans in Cleary and Wicks have 38 tackles in 21 games and Parker has 15 in 7 i think he is going pretty well and on top of that he is a much more prolific goal scorer

 

[caesar88]

I think reference pointing to 4 weeks ago and not 6 is pretty disingenuous to Parker considering the 3 weeks prior to that he laid 11 tackles. Given that the other small forwards for the Swans in Cleary and Wicks have 38 tackles in 21 games and Parker has 15 in 7 i think he is going pretty well and on top of that he is a much more prolific goal scorer

I'm not lamenting Parker's performances, I'm lamenting our need for more pressure and just saying that Parker is not offering much in that department, and I don't think he will. He has about 20 others for company in this regard btw.

I've been consistent all year, as far back as Opening Round, from the Richmond loss, right through our 10 game winning streak, our awful form slump and out the other end of it that I don't know if we have enough players who can bring real heat and physicality, particularly in the front half. As part of those doubts I've questioned if A) we have one too many outside/light/runner types and one needs replacing with more of a pressure type, and B) if our insistence on playing the three kinda average talls only emphasizes the need for greater pressure at ground level.

 

[Kbroome]

I'm not lamenting Parker's performances, I'm lamenting our need for more pressure and just saying that Parker is not offering much in that department, and I don't think he will. He has about 20 others for company in this regard btw.

I've been consistent all year, as far back as Opening Round, from the Richmond loss, right through our 10 game winning streak, our awful form slump and out the other end of it that I don't know if we have enough players who can bring real heat and physicality, particularly in the front half. As part of those doubts I've questioned if A) we have one too many outside/light/runner types and one needs replacing with more of a pressure type, and B) if our insistence on playing the three kinda average talls only emphasizes the need for greater pressure at ground level.

Agree with the thought i just think both our talls aren't ground breaking and our pressure forwards are VFL quality at best atm in Konstanty, Wicks and Hanily. (Not including Papley in that as he really isn't a pressure small and more of the goal scoring small)

I think Hanily can be a Brett Daniels 2.0 but he needs a preseason and a long VFL stint to prove himself cause he was a little up and down at the end of this year.

So my question is do you play a VFL quality small forward (Cleary i still consider a midfield that is versatile to play SF role and he is putting up similar numbers to Wicks was as well) or do you go down a more quantity of goals route in Parker.

 

[The King!]

Parker should be icing on the cake nowadays.


Its interesting to look at tackles v Melbourne 2022 final, Mills , Heeney, Parker and Rowbottom alone combined for 39 tackles.

The dogs game this year the whole team had 69. Tackles aren't the only sign of pressure of course. I hope we get more defence pressure tackles from guys other than Rowbottom in this game though.

 

[Kbroome]

Parker should be icing on the cake nowadays.


Its interesting to look at tackles v Melbourne 2022 final, Mills , Heeney, Parker and Rowbottom alone combined for 39 tackles.

The dogs game this year the whole team had 69. Tackles aren't the only sign of pressure of course. I hope we get more defence pressure tackles from guys other than Rowbottom in this game though.

Yep also think you can realistically scrap the tackle stats from the last game against the Crows. The game had 99 tackles and both teams were -(10-15) off their season average for tackles, so Parker having 0 wasn't as bad in that scenario

 

[caesar88]

Agree with the thought i just think both our talls aren't ground breaking and our pressure forwards are VFL quality at best atm in Konstanty, Wicks and Hanily. (Not including Papley in that as he really isn't a pressure small and more of the goal scoring small)

I think Hanily can be a Brett Daniels 2.0 but he needs a preseason and a long VFL stint to prove himself cause he was a little up and down at the end of this year.

So my question is do you play a VFL quality small forward (Cleary i still consider a midfield that is versatile to play SF role and he is putting up similar numbers to Wicks was as well) or do you go down a more quantity of goals route in Parker.

It is the real issue I guess.

For starters I don't think Parker is going anywhere, and I don't think he should. His last three games have been quality, he's earned that spot. I also think the three tall structure allows Parker to get off the chain by occupying the opposition's best contested defenders, the same way Heeney was able to in previous years.

At the same time, Amartey and his oven mitts for hands is a real worry in finals. We are talking about dropping players like Campbell and Cleary who have been quality at ground level, all the while Amartey is just barely delivering what is required each week.

But let's say we stick with the three talls... and we stick with Parker... and we drop Campbell & Cleary (along with Francis & Fox.) Do we have enough forward pressure? Do we have enough speed and physicality at ground level to hit loose ground balls at full speed and halve contests and make defenders nervous?

Maybe the final question is - am I overstating our pressure issue?

I feel like I've been watching other teams play, and whilst their work with the ball may not be as damaging and awesome as ours is when we are at full flight, their pressure is so manic. It's just swarming and besieging blokes en masse, tackling in twos and threes, full body bumps, desperate chasing etc., hands smothering and intercepting constantly, sticking tackles like glue. I just haven't seen that from us, even at our very best. Cleary delivering in these sorts of things has felt incredibly refreshing and kinda reinforced how much we've been lacking it for most of this year. We feel very Rowbottom or bust in this regard at times.

But I haven't really seen anyone commenting with much concern about it over the course of the season, so maybe I really am just seeing it differently, and we actually do have the players to deliver on the manic front-half pressure game we will need throughout September.

 

[Kbroome]

It is the real issue I guess.

For starters I don't think Parker is going anywhere, and I don't think he should. His last three games have been quality, he's earned that spot. I also think the three tall structure allows Parker to get off the chain by occupying the opposition's best contested defenders, the same way Heeney was able to in previous years.

At the same time, Amartey and his oven mitts for hands is a real worry in finals. We are talking about dropping players like Campbell and Cleary who have been quality at ground level, all the while Amartey is just barely delivering what is required each week.

But let's say we stick with the three talls... and we stick with Parker... and we drop Campbell & Cleary (along with Francis & Fox.) Do we have enough forward pressure? Do we have enough speed and physicality at ground level to hit loose ground balls at full speed and halve contests and make defenders nervous?

Maybe the final question is - am I overstating our pressure issue?

I feel like I've been watching other teams play, and whilst their work with the ball may not be as damaging and awesome as ours is when we are at full flight, their pressure is so manic. It's just swarming and besieging blokes en masse, tackling in twos and threes, full body bumps, desperate chasing etc., hands smothering and intercepting constantly, sticking tackles like glue. I just haven't seen that from us, even at our very best. Cleary delivering in these sorts of things has felt incredibly refreshing and kinda reinforced how much we've been lacking it for most of this year. We feel very Rowbottom or bust in this regard at times.

But I haven't really seen anyone commenting with much concern about it over the course of the season, so maybe I really am just seeing it differently, and we actually do have the players to deliver on the manic front-half pressure game we will need throughout September.

I understand your thoughts and the reasoning behind it but i think part of the reason why it works and maybe we have both missed how versatile the midfield is alongside how much quicker our midfield is compared to the rest of the comp.

Like put Adams on ball and now you have Heeney or Chad rest up forward that alongside Hayward provide a pretty good leading target.

I also think that the pure chaos that Juzzy and Papley provide is a different type of pressure because they can beat their man to the footy that it is making up for the lack of distinct pressure forwards by elevating our goal threat and our general speed around the ground.

 

[caesar88]

I understand your thoughts and the reasoning behind it but i think part of the reason why it works and maybe we have both missed how versatile the midfield is alongside how much quicker our midfield is compared to the rest of the comp.

Like put Adams on ball and now you have Heeney or Chad rest up forward that alongside Hayward provide a pretty good leading target.

I also think that the pure chaos that Juzzy and Papley provide is a different type of pressure because they can beat their man to the footy that it is making up for the lack of distinct pressure forwards by elevating our goal threat and our general speed around the ground.

I sure hope Papley & McInerney make a difference. Pressure is just so so important in finals I think, maybe more than anything.

I'd just hate to see missed tackles, easy exits etc. in our forward 50. And I want to see every mistake by an opposition defender in our forward half punished, and them not have time to just tidy it up and go again.

Hopefully Horse & co have a plan to ensure the above is dealt with. Maybe Florent plays forward more or something.

 

[Kiama Chris]

It is the real issue I guess.

For starters I don't think Parker is going anywhere, and I don't think he should. His last three games have been quality, he's earned that spot. I also think the three tall structure allows Parker to get off the chain by occupying the opposition's best contested defenders, the same way Heeney was able to in previous years.

At the same time, Amartey and his oven mitts for hands is a real worry in finals. We are talking about dropping players like Campbell and Cleary who have been quality at ground level, all the while Amartey is just barely delivering what is required each week.

But let's say we stick with the three talls... and we stick with Parker... and we drop Campbell & Cleary (along with Francis & Fox.) Do we have enough forward pressure? Do we have enough speed and physicality at ground level to hit loose ground balls at full speed and halve contests and make defenders nervous?

Maybe the final question is - am I overstating our pressure issue?

I feel like I've been watching other teams play, and whilst their work with the ball may not be as damaging and awesome as ours is when we are at full flight, their pressure is so manic. It's just swarming and besieging blokes en masse, tackling in twos and threes, full body bumps, desperate chasing etc., hands smothering and intercepting constantly, sticking tackles like glue. I just haven't seen that from us, even at our very best. Cleary delivering in these sorts of things has felt incredibly refreshing and kinda reinforced how much we've been lacking it for most of this year. We feel very Rowbottom or bust in this regard at times.

But I haven't really seen anyone commenting with much concern about it over the course of the season, so maybe I really am just seeing it differently, and we actually do have the players to deliver on the manic front-half pressure game we will need throughout September.

I think the biggest issue is that we have been unable to settle on a 7th forward. Wicks, Fox, Corey, Cleary, resting mids. Coulda, shoulda too late now. Make the best of it.

 

[Kbroome]

I think the biggest issue is that we have been unable to settle on a 7th forward. Wicks, Fox, Corey, Cleary, resting mids. Coulda, shoulda too late now. Make the best of it.

I think in 2025 it will be Campbell or Cleary we just left both of them until 3 games to go in the regular season until we chucked them fully forward

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

Deserved abuse though

What was this? (PM me if not relevant to the thread.)

 

[the hypnotoad]

forward line balance is going to be key

with Cleary out for Paps, will Paps be a team player and play the pressure forward? he's more interested in attacking and kicking goals than defending (just being realistic)

so if we then keep Parker forward, who will be the harassing small forward to keep the ball locked in f50? just campbell? or do we permanently move florent into the pressure forward role?

if we then move Adams out of HF/out of the side, we seriously will lack leg speed and players that can do multiple short burst sprints to apply pressure

my biggest worry is that GWS walks the ball out of their d50

they're going to be doing plenty of that, coz it's gonna be going into their d50 a whole lot

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

Where you headed?
More importantly, what were you thinking booking travel in Sep !!??

I actually think it’s the greatest sacrifice we fans can make for our club.

We just know that if we book stuff in September the Swans are gonna make the finals.

So we book stuff in September and our beloved Swans make the finals. Mission accomplished.

 

[zyzzbruh]

I feel like I've been watching other teams play, and whilst their work with the ball may not be as damaging and awesome as ours is when we are at full flight, their pressure is so manic. It's just swarming and besieging blokes en masse, tackling in twos and threes, full body bumps, desperate chasing etc., hands smothering and intercepting constantly, sticking tackles like glue. I just haven't seen that from us, even at our very best. Cleary delivering in these sorts of things has felt incredibly refreshing and kinda reinforced how much we've been lacking it for most of this year. We feel very Rowbottom or bust in this regard at times.

But I haven't really seen anyone commenting with much concern about it over the course of the season, so maybe I really am just seeing it differently, and we actually do have the players to deliver on the manic front-half pressure game we will need throughout September.

I felt the same all year. We've seen the odd glimpse of it but yeah it does seem we're more of a pick the opponent apart on the outside and hitting targets type of team. And although results have shown that we are superior to everyone else, I also always had an uneasy feeling even during our run that a team executing their contested work and forward entries well could absolutely destroy us at any moment, and that's exactly what happened. tbh i'm nervous about it in the next few games and whether we can sustain our style without a stumble.

Rounds 0 & 1 were the two games where we had a perfect synergy of contested/tackling pressure + outside work. Our pressure was absolutely manic in those two games so i know we're capable of it. Bring that style of game and no ones beating us. March just seems so long ago now tho.

 

[wilsonmatic]

Agree on all the pressure stuff, that's why I'd drop Adams and give Clearly a go in the first final. We could get absolutely destroyed by a Dogs/Giants/Hawks team if we can't limit their speed through the ground.

On CET-AL00 using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[caesar88]

I felt the same all year. We've seen the odd glimpse of it but yeah it does seem we're more of a pick the opponent apart on the outside and hitting targets type of team. And although results have shown that we are superior to everyone else, I also always had an uneasy feeling even during our run that a team executing their contested work and forward entries well could absolutely destroy us at any moment, and that's exactly what happened. tbh i'm nervous about it in the next few games and whether we can sustain our style without a stumble.

Rounds 0 & 1 were the two games where we had a perfect synergy of contested/tackling pressure + outside work. Our pressure was absolutely manic in those two games so i know we're capable of it. Bring that style of game and no ones beating us. March just seems so long ago now tho.

I completely agree with all of this, especially that our pressure game seemed to really peak in the very first fortnight of the season.

 

[caesar88]

Agree on all the pressure stuff, that's why I'd drop Adams and give Clearly a go in the first final. We could get absolutely destroyed by a Dogs/Giants/Hawks team if we can't limit their speed through the ground.

On CET-AL00 using BigFooty.com mobile app

If you drop Adams to keep Cleary in you're just dropping one good pressure player for another though. Nothing's really gained.

 

[Tedeski]

I'd be disappointed if we dropped Adams.
Finals footy is a different game all together & you need hardened tough players.
Adams is ready. No more unpleasant surprises please.
Go with what we know.

 

[Bloods86]

If you drop Adams to keep Cleary in you're just dropping one good pressure player for another though. Nothing's really gained.

Adams at stoppages sure, but admittedly a small sample size, Cleary seems to cover the ground more, and more quickly.

For me, if we're looking at Adams, we're looking at a part time mid, part time off a half forward flank. That will be the reality when Heeney returns and we have others returning, which will eat up midfield rotations. I.e. Papley will likely get 10-20% CBs, maybe not first week back, but at some point. Jmac returning probably pushes Gulden and Warner back in a bit more (though Heeney will offset).

We already have Parker as a mid/fwd. I think we'd be better served with someone like Campbell or Cleary playing full time pressure forward, than a low mid % Adams, having to play forward.

 

[zyzzbruh]

Adams at stoppages sure, but admittedly a small sample size, Cleary seems to cover the ground more, and more quickly.

For me, if we're looking at Adams, we're looking at a part time mid, part time off a half forward flank. That will be the reality when Heeney returns and we have others returning, which will eat up midfield rotations. I.e. Papley will likely get 10-20% CBs, maybe not first week back, but at some point. Jmac returning probably pushes Gulden and Warner back in a bit more (though Heeney will offset).

We already have Parker as a mid/fwd. I think we'd be better served with someone like Campbell or Cleary playing full time pressure forward, than a low mid % Adams, having to play forward.

Cleary has had a good couple of games for an 18 yr old, but that's it, wasn't exceptional to the point of being undroppable.

Would be an absolute mare taking a 3 gamer into finals. The Campbell theory makes more sense, albeit Adam's wont be getting dropped he's an absolute bull at the bottom of the contest, we can't afford to lose that he's one of the only ones capable of doing it.

 

[Nuggetz]

If you drop Adams to keep Cleary in you're just dropping one good pressure player for another though. Nothing's really gained.

Drop Lloyd? I want Adams & Cleary in the team but can't see who could be dropped for them apart from Amartey/Mcdonald/Campbell/Lloyd. I don't think we're going away from the 3 talls, so Amartey & Mcdonald are safe, while Campbell is another goal scoring option which we need with our inconsistent fwds. I don't know what's Lloyds role with Mills in defence & Roberts ripping form.

 

[Nuggetz]

I think in 2025 it will be Campbell or Cleary we just left both of them until 3 games to go in the regular season until we chucked them fully forward

Cleary looks a ripper in that role, another contested player in our forward half is important imo. He'll need to improve his field kicking though.

 

[Kbroome]

Cleary looks a ripper in that role, another contested player in our forward half is important imo. He'll need to improve his field kicking though.

He will turn into an on baller in the end so its just a transition year or two for him so don't know if he needs to improve his kicking too much