Quarter of a century without Fitzroy: Is the AFL better or worse off?

[Coolangatta]

Travel is an issue that the adopted VFL model did not face.
The suburban definition of away does not fit our national comp.

Right, which is why I'd split the Victorian teams if I was going to split them into two groups, but rotate them around.

5 Vic sides in a group of 12 teams playing each other twice means they'd have to travel 7 times. 8 if you keep Gather Round.

I think as it is, Collingwood are playing 6 games away this season which is great; 10 of the 18 teams are Victorian so the Vic sides can't all travel 8 times a year because they wouldn't be able to play all their Victorian rivals once.

This would become irrelevant if we ever had too many teams for a single-tier competition but we're not at that stage yet.

 

[Demonic Ascent]

Identifying the false moves along the way is not pointless, as changes are constant.
At some point the Commission will critically examine where the Administration is taking our game.

Only if the dollars dry up. Til then things will just keep rolling.

 

[Roylion]

As per agreement, Fitzroy ceased operations

They ceased their AFL operations, as Fitzroy's licence to compete in the AFL was surrendered by the administrator.

and transferred their assets to the Brisbane Bears,

The administrator Michael Brennan settled outstanding debts by transferring and/or selling assets to the Brisbane Bears in return for a set sum of money (from the AFL) used to pay out creditors.

and thus the merger was completed.

There was no merger.

The Brisbane Bears rebranded and bought some Fitzroy assets, sold off by administrator Michael Brennan. The AFL paid $6 million to the Bears and allowed the Brisbane Bears to change its name to the Brisbane Lions, redesign its jumper to incorporate elements from Fitzroy's jumper (using AFL owned IP, such as the Fitzroy lion logo) and gave them pre-draft picks from Fitzroy's 1996 list, as well as help settle Fitzroy debts.

But Brennan did not liquidate the Fitzroy Football Club. Nauru's choice of an administrator, rather than a receiver or liquidator, explains why the Fitzroy Football Club survives to this day. Brennan spent 18 months converting Fitzroy's assets into cash (see above) to pay its 120 unsecured creditors, including players and employees. They got 27¢ in the dollar and Nauru got its $1.25 million as the only secured creditor. On December 22 1997, Brennan resigned as the administrator and returned control of the Fitzroy Football Club to its directors.

Michael Brennan (on his resignation as administrator: "The corporate entity called Fitzroy Football Club continues in existence."

Dyson Hore-Lacy said at the time the club was returned to the control of the directors: "Fitzroy Football Club has no assets and no liabilities. It is a debt-free football club - possibly the only one in Australia ... We will be proceeding as normal, the only difference being that we have not got a football team."

In the corporate world, a company set free from administration can take up where it left off.

What Fitzroy did have when it came out of administration in December 1997, was 700 shareholders (of which I was - and remain - one of those) and a cashflow. Fitzroy was - and remained - the beneficiary of a trust, run by corporate trustee Bondborough (controlled by Hore-Lacy and Fitzroy director Elaine Findlay). Bondborough owned the leasehold of the West Brunswick Hotel, which after Fitzroy's removal from the AFL generated income for Fitzroy of between $200,000 and $300,000 a year.

It is very nice that coterie groups and shareholders kept selling merchandise from the back of truck

Once again. They didn't.

They had income from the West Brunswick Hotel, they sold merchandise and memorabilia from a bricks and mortar shop called "The Fitzroy Shop" and increasingly online. Once the FFC logo was trademarked by the Fitzroy Football Club, they sold jumpers and other merchandise. There was nothing the AFL could do about to as they didn't own the logo.

and ensured the new Lions board retained the Fitzroy Lion logo when it was decided this logo was outdated (a strange occurrence,

One of Fitzroy Football Club's stated aims was to represent the Victorian supporters of the Brisbane Lions (who were there because of the Fitzroy connection). So Fitzroy took legal action on their behalf as the Deed of Arrangement has been signed between the Brisbane Bears and the administrator of the Fitzroy Football Club. The terms are there to read on the Fitzroy board. When the administrator left, the Fitzroy board of directors were now back in control of the club.

if the Brisbane Lions were indeed a different club to the original Fitzroy Lions?).

Not strange at all. If the Brisbane Lions were the same club as the Fitzroy Football Club, how on earth did the Fitzroy Football Club take court action against them and indeed Victorian Supreme Court Associate Justice Nemeer Mukhtar agreed the Fitzroy Football Club had a case. This confirmed the legality of the Fitzroy Football Club as the same club that once had an AFL licence and also confirmed that they were a separate football club to the Brisbane Lions.

It's a heart-warming footnote that a new Fitzroy Lions are now playing pub footy league, too.

It's called the VAFA. Heard of it?

There's no new Fitzroy Lions". The Fitzroy Lion logo is owned by the AFL. Fitzroy Football Club cannot and do not use it as part of their branding.

But it's also very important to acknowledge the truth.

You've got no idea of the truth. You weren't involved in the whole process from 1996 onwards.

I find it incredibly disrespectful to those who lost their football club to pretend that the Fitzroy Lions were simply relegated to a lower league,

Their football club exists in the VAFA to this day. Go and have a look at the Brunswick St Oval on a Saturday afternoon in the football season and see it for yourself.

when the facts are they were merged out of existence.

Absolute rubbish. This statement of yours merely comfirms that you don't have any idea whatsover what went on. You just think you do.

It's also very disrespectful to the Lions supporters who see the Brisbane Lions- correctly- as the continuation of this club.

Absolute garbage. I'm a member of the Brisbane Lions in 2023 and have been every year since 1997. Why do you think that is? I'll give you a starting point. It's not because the Brisbane Lions are a 'continuation" of the Fitzroy Football Club.

You can carry on with your fantasy

Unlike you, I know what the real story is. I was involved in the events both during and after 1996. Many a time I went to meetings at the West Brunsick Hotel from 1998 onwards as the club planned to get back on its feet. Want to see the result? Saturday afternoon at the Brunswick Street Oval in 2023.

140th birthday celebrations for THE Fitzroy Football Club in September 2023.

but remember, always, it's just that. Bit of fairy tale is all.

You certainly do believe in fairy tales. AFL generated ones. Like archaeology and science is slowly shining a light on some the fairytales of the Bible, so is the true story of what happened in 1996 and beyond slowly trickling into the consciousness of the average football supporter. You'll see the latest instalment when the 140th anniversary party of the birth of the Fitzroy Football Club is kicked off at the Brunswick Street Oval in September 2023 by the very same Fitzroy Football Club.

And of course we will be acknowledging the role of the Brisbane Lions in continuing to preserve the VFL-AFL history of Fitzroy Football Club in the current AFL competition.

 

[Freomaniac]

100%, ground rationalisation led to the homogenisation of the AFL. Even if they kept say 4 grounds with Footscray playing at Western Oval, North/Carlton at Princes Park, Melb/Coll/Rich/Ess at MCG and Saints/Hawks at Waverley/Moorabbin would've been a far greater experience than what we have now.

Yep... I live in South Australia.

So I do appreciate going to Suburban SANFL grounds like Norwood oval, Glenelg oval, woodville oval, Noarlunga oval and Prospect oval.


Even though its Carltons home ground, I think teams like North should be playing home games at Princes Park. North getting 15-20,000 at Princes Park is way better than North getting 15-20,000 at Docklands.

Had fitzroy still be in the AFL, very likely they would be playing home games at docklands.

 

[Toump Ass]

The Brisbane Bears rebranded and bought some Fitzroy assets, sold off by administrator Michael Brennan. The AFL paid $6 million to the Bears and allowed the Brisbane Bears to change its name to the Brisbane Lions, redesign its jumper to incorporate elements from Fitzroy's jumper and gave them pre-draft picks from Fitzroy's 1996 list, as well as help settle Fitzroy debts.

But Brennan did not liquidate Fitzroy Football Club. Nauru's choice of an administrator, rather than a receiver or liquidator, explains why the Fitzroy Football Club survives to this day. Brennan spent 18 months converting Fitzroy's assets into cash (see above) to pay its 120 unsecured creditors, including players and employees. They got 27¢ in the dollar and Nauru got its $1.25 million. On December 22 1997, Brennan resigned as the administrator and returned control of the Fitzroy Football Club to its directors.

Michael Brennan (on his resignation as administrator: "The corporate entity called Fitzroy Football Club continues in existence."

Dyson Hore-Lacy said at the time the club was returned to the control of the directors: "Fitzroy Football Club has no assets and no liabilities. It is a debt-free football club - possibly the only one in Australia ... We will be proceeding as normal, the only difference being that we have not got a football team."

In the corporate world, a company set free from administration can take up where it left off.

What Fitzroy did have when it came out of administration in December 1997, was 700 shareholders (of which I was - and remain - one of those) and a cashflow. Fitzroy was - and remained - the beneficiary of a trust, run by corporate trustee Bondborough (controlled by Hore-Lacy and Fitzroy director Elaine Findlay). Bondborough owned the leasehold of the West Brunswick Hotel, which after Fitzroy's removal from the AFL generated income for Fitzroy of between $200,000 and $300,000 a year.

Damn, this is really interesting backstory. Believe it or not I don't think I've read this before. Thought I'd seen it all from you! <3

 

[Roylion]

Damn, this is really interesting backstory.

Of course it is. All true.

Believe it or not I don't think I've read this before.

That's obvious. Your failure to face facts seems to result from either ignorance and/or a reluctance to admit you're wrong. And you are wrong.

Thought I'd seen it all from you! <3

Obviously not. You keep making the same erroneous statements.

 

[windyhill]

The Junction, many great memories going there with Dad. Playing surface, bowling green.

 

[VinnieB]

I don't think the AFL is 'better off' without Fitzroy.
Are they worse off? Probably not given alot of the Fitzroy supporters adopted Brisbane Lions.

But, I for one, would have liked to see Fitzroy in the AFL. Other clubs have existed, and some flourished, since those days when they were on the verge of merging. Other clubs have survived and slowly built up their member base.

So, who knows what Fitzroy would have been if still in the comp.

 

[Toump Ass]

Of course it is. All true.

Sure. Still doesn’t change the fact that Fitzroy Lions merged with Brisbnane Bears and became Brisbane Bears though.

Your failure to face facts seems to result from either ignorance and/or a reluctance to admit you're wrong.

Wrong about what? The merger?

The merger document is very clear. You can call it a re-brand all you like. Everyone else will call it what it is. Very sad.

 

[Roylion]

Sure. ...,,Brisbnane Bears and became Brisbane Bears though.

Correct. The Brisbane Bears are still the Brisbane Bears with a name change to the Lions. The Deed of Arrangement makes that very clear.

Brisbane Bears as the same club as the Brisbane Lions

Fitzroy Football club (established 1883 - 140 years old this year) is a separate football club to the Brisbane Bears/Lions. Fitzroy is 140 years old this year and still exists in its own right. That is beyond doubt.

Wrong about what? The merger?

I've explained why you're wrong. See above.

Fitzroy Football club (established 1883 - 140 years old this year) is a separate football club to the Brisbane Bears/Lions. Fitzroy is 140 years old this year and still exists in its own right. That is beyond doubt.

The merger document is very clear. You can call it a re-brand all you like.

It is a rebrand. The Brisbane Bears are still the Brisbane Bears with a name change to the Lions. Like Footscray to the Western Bulldogs.

The Deed of Arrangement makes that very clear.

Everyone else will call it what it is.

Let's hope they come down and see the Fitzroy Football Club in action at the Brunswick Street Oval this year. 140 years old! Celebrations in September.

Very sad.

Nah.

It's great the Fitzroy Football Club continues on its own right as it has since 1883. Did I tell you the Fitzroy Football Club is 140 years old this year? No?

The Fitzroy Football Club is 140 years old this year.

September 2023 to be exact.

The only football club in Australian Rules history to have played in the VFA, VFL, AFL and the VAFA. Lots to celebrate in September. And we've already started.

 

[Coolangatta]

Correct. The Brisbane Bears are still the Brisbane Bears with a name change to the Lions. The Deed of Arrangement makes that very clear.

Brisbane Bears as the same club as the Brisbane Lions

Fitzroy Football club (established 1883 - 140 years old this year) is a separate football club to the Brisbane Bears/Lions. Fitzroy is 140 years old this year and still exists in its own right. That is beyond doubt.


I've explained why you're wrong. See above.

Fitzroy Football club (established 1883 - 140 years old this year) is a separate football club to the Brisbane Bears/Lions. Fitzroy is 140 years old this year and still exists in its own right. That is beyond doubt.



It is a rebrand. The Brisbane Bears are still the Brisbane Bears with a name change to the Lions. Like Footscray to the Western Bulldogs.

The Deed of Arrangement makes that very clear.



Let's hope they come down and see the Fitzroy Football Club in action at the Brunswick Street Oval this year. 140 years old! Celebrations in September.



Nah.

It's great the Fitzroy Football Club continues on its own right as it has since 1883. Did I tell you the Fitzroy Football Club is 140 years old this year? No?

The Fitzroy Football Club is 140 years old this year.

September 2023 to be exact.

The only football club in Australian Rules history to have played in the VFA, VFL, AFL and the VAFA. Lots to celebrate in September.

South Melbourne still around in the VAFA, too.

 

[Roylion]

South Melbourne still around in the VAFA, too.

South Melbourne Districts Football Club was formed in 1912 where it existed alongside the South Melbourne Football Club in the VFL.

The South Melbourne Districts Football Club was in the VFL Sub-district Football League (SUBD) from 1912–1949. They joined the Metropolitan Football League in 1950 and competed there until 1962. They competed in the Southern Football Netball League (SFNL) from 1963–1999. The Club joined the VAFA in 2000.

 

[yodellinhank]

They ceased their AFL operations, as Fitzroy's licence to compete in the AFL was surrendered by the administrator.



The administrator Michael Brennan settled outstanding debts by transferring and/or selling assets to the Brisbane Bears in return for a set sum of money (from the AFL) used to pay out creditors.



There was no merger.

The Brisbane Bears rebranded and bought some Fitzroy assets, sold off by administrator Michael Brennan. The AFL paid $6 million to the Bears and allowed the Brisbane Bears to change its name to the Brisbane Lions, redesign its jumper to incorporate elements from Fitzroy's jumper (using AFL owned IP, such as the Fitzroy lion logo) and gave them pre-draft picks from Fitzroy's 1996 list, as well as help settle Fitzroy debts.

But Brennan did not liquidate the Fitzroy Football Club. Nauru's choice of an administrator, rather than a receiver or liquidator, explains why the Fitzroy Football Club survives to this day. Brennan spent 18 months converting Fitzroy's assets into cash (see above) to pay its 120 unsecured creditors, including players and employees. They got 27¢ in the dollar and Nauru got its $1.25 million as the only secured creditor. On December 22 1997, Brennan resigned as the administrator and returned control of the Fitzroy Football Club to its directors.

Michael Brennan (on his resignation as administrator: "The corporate entity called Fitzroy Football Club continues in existence."

Dyson Hore-Lacy said at the time the club was returned to the control of the directors: "Fitzroy Football Club has no assets and no liabilities. It is a debt-free football club - possibly the only one in Australia ... We will be proceeding as normal, the only difference being that we have not got a football team."

In the corporate world, a company set free from administration can take up where it left off.

What Fitzroy did have when it came out of administration in December 1997, was 700 shareholders (of which I was - and remain - one of those) and a cashflow. Fitzroy was - and remained - the beneficiary of a trust, run by corporate trustee Bondborough (controlled by Hore-Lacy and Fitzroy director Elaine Findlay). Bondborough owned the leasehold of the West Brunswick Hotel, which after Fitzroy's removal from the AFL generated income for Fitzroy of between $200,000 and $300,000 a year.



Once again. They didn't.

They had income from the West Brunswick Hotel, they sold merchandise and memorabilia from a bricks and mortar shop called "The Fitzroy Shop" and increasingly online. Once the FFC logo was trademarked by the Fitzroy Football Club, they sold jumpers and other merchandise. There was nothing the AFL could do about to as they didn't own the logo.



One of Fitzroy Football Club's stated aims was to represent the Victorian supporters of the Brisbane Lions (who were there because of the Fitzroy connection). So Fitzroy took legal action on their behalf as the Deed of Arrangement has been signed between the Brisbane Bears and the administrator of the Fitzroy Football Club. The terms are there to read on the Fitzroy board. When the administrator left, the Fitzroy board of directors were now back in control of the club.



Not strange at all. If the Brisbane Lions were the same club as the Fitzroy Football Club, how on earth did the Fitzroy Football Club take court action against them and indeed Victorian Supreme Court Associate Justice Nemeer Mukhtar agreed the Fitzroy Football Club had a case. This confirmed the legality of the Fitzroy Football Club as the same club that once had an AFL licence and also confirmed that they were a separate football club to the Brisbane Lions.



It's called the VAFA. Heard of it?

There's no new Fitzroy Lions". The Fitzroy Lion logo is owned by the AFL. Fitzroy Football Club cannot and do not use it as part of their branding.


You've got no idea of the truth. You weren't involved in the whole process from 1996 onwards.


Their football club exists in the VAFA to this day. Go and have a look at the Brunswick St Oval on a Saturday afternoon in the football season and see it for yourself.



Absolute rubbish. This statement of yours merely comfirms that you don't have any idea whatsover what went on. You just think you do.



Absolute garbage. I'm a member of the Brisbane Lions in 2023 and have been every year since 1997. Why do you think that is? I'll give you a starting point. It's not because the Brisbane Lions are a 'continuation" of the Fitzroy Football Club.




Unlike you, I know what the real story is. I was involved in the events both during and after 1996. Many a time I went to meetings at the West Brunsick Hotel from 1998 onwards as the club planned to get back on its feet. Want to see the result? Saturday afternoon at the Brunswick Street Oval in 2023.

140th birthday celebrations for THE Fitzroy Football Club in September 2023.



You certainly do believe in fairy tales. AFL generated ones. Like archaeology and science is slowly shining a light on some the fairytales of the Bible, so is the true story of what happened in 1996 and beyond slowly trickling into the consciousness of the average football supporter. You'll see the latest instalment when the 140th anniversary party of the birth of the Fitzroy Football Club is kicked off at the Brunswick Street Oval in September 2023 by the very same Fitzroy Football Club.

And of course we will be acknowledging the role of the Brisbane Lions in continuing to preserve the VFL-AFL history of Fitzroy Football Club in the current AFL competition.

Thanks for the comprehensive post.

Was/is it "The West Brunswick Hotel", thought The Fitzroy Club hotel was The Albion and East Brunswick/Northcote way?

 

[Roylion]

Thanks for the comprehensive post.

Was/is it "The West Brunswick Hotel", thought The Fitzroy Club hotel was The Albion and East Brunswick/Northcote way?

It was. Bondborough owned the leasehold of the West Brunswick Hotel as well as that of the Charles Albion.

 

[yodellinhank]

It was. Bondborough owned the leasehold of the West Brunswick Hotel as well as that of the Charles Albion.

Ah. Is there any recognition of Fitzroy still at the venues? Or is there a pub associated with the club these days?

 

[Roylion]

Ah. Is there any recognition of Fitzroy still at the venues? Or is there a pub associated with the club these days?

Stone Hotel. Royal Derby Hotel. And the Napier Hotel has plenty of Fitzroy memorabilia on the walls.

 

[Demonic Ascent]

Deep in our hearts everyone barracks for Fitzroy, whether they say they barrack for somebody else or not.

 

[jarrod_island_doggies]

Correct. The Brisbane Bears are still the Brisbane Bears with a name change to the Lions. The Deed of Arrangement makes that very clear.

Brisbane Bears as the same club as the Brisbane Lions

Fitzroy Football club (established 1883 - 140 years old this year) is a separate football club to the Brisbane Bears/Lions. Fitzroy is 140 years old this year and still exists in its own right. That is beyond doubt.


I've explained why you're wrong. See above.

Fitzroy Football club (established 1883 - 140 years old this year) is a separate football club to the Brisbane Bears/Lions. Fitzroy is 140 years old this year and still exists in its own right. That is beyond doubt.



It is a rebrand. The Brisbane Bears are still the Brisbane Bears with a name change to the Lions. Like Footscray to the Western Bulldogs.

The Deed of Arrangement makes that very clear.



Let's hope they come down and see the Fitzroy Football Club in action at the Brunswick Street Oval this year. 140 years old! Celebrations in September.



Nah.

It's great the Fitzroy Football Club continues on its own right as it has since 1883. Did I tell you the Fitzroy Football Club is 140 years old this year? No?

The Fitzroy Football Club is 140 years old this year.

September 2023 to be exact.

The only football club in Australian Rules history to have played in the VFA, VFL, AFL and the VAFA. Lots to celebrate in September. And we've already started.

Hawks too - started in the VAFA (then MJFA)

 

[jarrod_island_doggies]

Stone Hotel. Royal Derby Hotel. And the Napier Hotel has plenty of Fitzroy memorabilia on the walls.

We often have club events at the Royal Derby - more informal gatherings at the Newry

 

[peetoo]

AFL were pussies in 1996. The north-Fitzroy was canned and so was the hawthorn- Melbourne. Hawthorn the most rebellious.

They were punch drunk at AFL HQ what was wrong with getting north and Melbourne together? No backbone

 

[Toump Ass]

Brisbane Bears is the same club as the Fitzroy Lions.

Fixed.

It doesn’t matter what shell entity existed for a decade after the merger. A football club without a team is not a football club.

Deep down, you know this.

 

[CarnTheScray]

Fitzroy no longer exist. Neither do South Melbourne.

 

[Kwality]

Ha! That'll be the day. WA wanted in on the VFL and the VFL wanted WA to join the table: the rest is history.

I'd rather have the teams be a mixture of geography, performance, and rotational, with 5-6 Vic teams in one group, 4-5 in another. Keep the travel and variety spicy.

Keep in mind, I wouldn't have any issues with Ballarat-Bendigo or Albury–Wodonga getting their own teams eventually, though I suppose the latter is more a NSW/Vic hybrid. Even seen some cool names for them, the Goldfield Miners and the Murray Bushrangers.

Given expansion would only happen every 15-25 years a lot of these are a long way off though.

WA wanted in on the national comp.
The WAFL was broke as was the VFL. A national comp was seen as the solution.

 

[Cubs2Lions]

WA wanted in on the national comp.
The WAFL was broke as was the VFL. A national comp was seen as the solution.

Kinda off topic, but would have been interesting to see what would have happened, if Fitzroy was still in the AFL/AFLW competitions today as such and no mergers took place between any of the Victorian clubs at all during the 1990s (I.e- North-Fitzroy Kangaroos & Melbourne Hawks).

Could have most likely seen Tasmania enter the AFL already in the late 1990s - early 2000s to combat the odd number in the league that would have taken place between that period, while NSW2 & QLD2 (GWS / Gold Coast) might have established more likely in the mid - late 2020s compared to the early 2010s, to create a 20 team competition for both the AFL/AFLW leagues.

 

[Coolangatta]

Kinda off topic, but would have been interesting to see what would have happened, if Fitzroy was still in the AFL/AFLW competitions today as such and no mergers took place between any of the Victorian clubs at all during the 1990s (I.e- North-Fitzroy Kangaroos & Melbourne Hawks).

Could have most likely seen Tasmania enter the AFL already in the late 1990s - early 2000s to combat the odd number in the league that would have taken place between that period, while NSW2 & QLD2 (GWS / Gold Coast) might have established more likely in the mid - late 2020s compared to the early 2010s, to create a 20 team competition for both the AFL/AFLW leagues.

Yeah Tassie had some bids before the Suns and GWS came into the equation. Probably would’ve had Tassie come in after Port as team 18, then the two expansion clubs.