Quarter of a century without Fitzroy: Is the AFL better or worse off?

[Roylion]

It doesn’t matter what shell entity existed for a decade after the merger. A football club without a team is not a football club.

I guess all those clubs that went into recess during the wars weren't football clubs in that case.

Turns out Fitzroy Football Club does have a team. Several in fact.

Deep down, you know this.

Did I tell you about Fitzroy's 140th birthday celebrations?

No?





Join the only football club in Australian rules football history to have played in the VFA, VFL, AFL and VAFA.

 

[Toump Ass]

I guess all those clubs that went into recess during the wars weren't football clubs in that case.

The ones that didn't return to the league, don't have a team, or merge with another club? Of course they are no longer football clubs.

 

[Roylion]

The ones that didn't return to the league,

University still exist. Same club as used to be in the VFL.

don't have a team,

Fitzroy Football Club has a team. Several. Seniors, Reserves, Thirds, U19s and a women's side.

or merge with another club?

No merger took place. Otherwise we wouldn't be talking about Fitzroy's 140th birthday celebrations would we.

Did I tell you about Fitzroy's 140th celebrations this year?

Of course they are no longer football clubs.

But of course Fitzroy Football Club is a football club.

Did I tell you how old the Fitzroy Football Club is this year? Coming down for the celebrations? I'll be there.

 

[The Majestic]

I really miss seeing Fitzroy in the AFL, I went to their games at North Hobart Oval, would have been so good seeing more games down here at the time. I was only just in primary school and my dad was working for the Mercury so he got me into the games. Pretty decent crowds at North Hobart Oval too for the games, was such a great experience and some great memories there.

 

[Toump Ass]

Fitzroy Football Club has a team. Several. Seniors, Reserves, Thirds, U19s and a women's side.

I'm very sad to hear this Roy. I personally would have hated a "Melbourne Demons" pretending to be the real Melbourne Demons, had we successfully merged with Hawthorn Hawks in the 1950s.

No merger took place.

Sure did. You can learn about it in this great documentary, called "The Merge". Have you seen it?

 

[Roylion]

I'm very sad to hear this Roy.

Of course you are. Just goes to show that Fitzroy Football Club remains a football club. Sure we didnt have a team for a little while. but so too have other various clubs

I personally would have hated a "Melbourne Demons" pretending to be the real Melbourne Demons,

I'm sure you would have. Fortunately we have THE independent and fully operating 140 year old Fitzroy Football Club still in existance. Did you know Fitzroy Football Club was 140 years old this year?

had we successfully merged with Hawthorn Hawks in the 1950s.

Like Fitzroy, the Melbourne Demons and Hawthorn Hawks did not merge and they remain independent entities.

Sure did. You can learn about it in this great documentary, called "The Merge". Have you seen it?

I have seen it. A slick piece of marketing produced by the Brisbane Lions.

Did you know Fitzroy Football Club was 140 years old this year?



See that logo on the front of those jumpers?

Trademarked and owned by THE Fitzroy Football Club from 10th June 1998 until at least 10 Jun 2028.

Trademark: 764288.

Fitzroy Football Club can use their trademark on any clothing, footwear and headgear including football jumpers and socks, scarves, shirts, T-shirts, shorts and neckties that they merchandise.

Full details here.

 

[Toump Ass]

I have seen it. A slick piece of marketing produced by the Brisbane Lions.

It's a weird dichotomy I think, to support the "Bears" while repudiating everything they say about their history.

 

[Roylion]

It's a weird dichotomy I think, to support the "Bears" while repudiating everything they say about their history.

Dear oh dear.

You haven't been properly reading anything I've said. Is everything black and white to you?

 

[Toump Ass]

You haven't been reading anything I've said.

Fixed.

 

[LordLucifer]

Who are these clubs you see as constant "welfare recipients"?

North Melbourne seem to be an easy target for such sneery and ill informed comments, but the Roos are now debt free.

Our club was in need of welfare itself back in those dark 2002-2007 days, until the late Richard Pratt thankfully came to our rescue.

You don't think the Saints are a constant welfare recipient ??

If our club went to the wall because they couldn't operate as a financially viable option then so be it. I'd be pissed off but would also completely understand the reality of the situation.

 

[Saab NLAW]

To answer the OP question i think the AFL is much better than what the old VFL was. Has that got anything to do with putting the sword to Fitzroy, yes it does but can you imagine the sooking by non-Vic fans about far too many Vic clubs if we still had Fitzroy in the comp?

The sad reality is that the dismantling of Fitzroy and allowing Brisbane to sift through its carcass definitely made Brisbane stronger. And having a strong, competitive Brisbane Lions is so much better than what the Brisbane Bears was. The competition needs strong clubs in all states.

So, taking into account how much the death of Fitroy in the VFL/AFL improved Brisbane I think the AFL is much better off.

 

[W.C. Fry]

Yeah, Cable most certainly a legend. The first football match I watched on tv, he was playing. He was a veteran but he was talked about in same way a Selwood or Judd were as veterans where anyone hat follows footy no they been out and out champions.
I just do not think enough thinking by admins of any football leagues at the time of expansion to protect the heritage of each league. If it was done right we could have had deals with the AFL and state leagues admins that Sunday was no go zone for the AFL and had WAFL, SANFL and VFA still be well supported and followed to this day. All of us would probably have a team we follow in the AFL at start of weekend and each have a club in WAFL, SANFL and VFA to follow in each state on Sunday arvo. If West Coast and Fremantle had not been created it probably would have been two clubs like East Fremantle and Claremont enter the AFL and leave the WAFL. Maybe you would have followed East Fremantle Sharks in he AFL and South Freo in the WAFL on Sundays for example.

I like the US model of football where Friday is High School, Saturday is College and Sunday is the NFL. If we had run with something similar then the state leagues would have stayed stronger and football would have been better for it.

Saying I would choose between East Freo or Claremont to support in the upper tier league is absurd. In an alternate universe if SA had the biggest league and you had to choose between Collingwood or Essendon joining the SANFL would you jump on board? It wouldn't have worked. The new clubs had to be created and seeing as they are now amongst the strongest in the comp, you can look back and say at least they got that part right.

Could that model have been done across the board? At the time, no. The money and professionalism wasn't there to create new teams everywhere in a new super league. Would it be done now? No, the AFL won't give away their share back to the state leagues and the Vic clubs won't want to go back to a state league.
But imagine something like 4 or 5 VIC, 2 WA, 2 SA, 1 QLD, 1 NSW, 1 TAS and maybe even 1 NT.
Plays 1 game Friday night, the others on Saturday.

The State leagues gets Sunday all to itself and are now well supported and stronger. Players in the state leagues probably able to be paid professionally, or at the very least better than what they currently get. That helps produce better players and it all just feeds into itself.

It's a pipedream, unless the Saudi's create LIV Footy it's never going to happen. So it's never going to happen.

 

[footyfan1978]

I like the US model of football where Friday is High School, Saturday is College and Sunday is the NFL. If we had run with something similar then the state leagues would have stayed stronger and football would have been better for it.

Saying I would choose between East Freo or Claremont to support in the upper tier league is absurd. In an alternate universe if SA had the biggest league and you had to choose between Collingwood or Essendon joining the SANFL would you jump on board? It wouldn't have worked. The new clubs had to be created and seeing as they are now amongst the strongest in the comp, you can look back and say at least they got that part right.

I disagree. They are only followed franchises as there was no other option and it has come at a cost of the state leagues are all feeder leagues only.
So the new franchise as a business model is ok but the sport itself is weaker culturally in my opinion and that likely to have flow on effects as decades move on. It bottom line is the only measure, yeah, but it is not imo.

The bit we agree on is the Sunday should have been free for the state leagues but it was not in the thinking and the moment in history is lost and the sport in lesser for it as a result. But it will still go on but I think it now stuck in the business model thinking and culturally it is lesser for it and had its best times already.

 

[footyfan1978]

It's a weird dichotomy I think, to support the "Bears" while repudiating everything they say about their history.

He does not support them. The Bears are no longer. Only the Brisbane name was allowed to stay in this new entity from 1997 onwards.

 

[W.C. Fry]

I disagree. They are only followed franchises as there was no other option and it has come at a cost of the state leagues are all feeder leagues only.
So the new franchise as a business model is ok but the sport itself is weaker culturally in my opinion and that likely to have flow on effects as decades move on. It bottom line is the only measure, yeah, but it is not imo.

The bit we agree on is the Sunday should have been free for the state leagues but it was not in the thinking and the moment in history is lost and the sport in lesser for it as a result. But it will still go on but I think it now stuck in the business model thinking and culturally it is lesser for it and had its best times already.

So you would switch support to Collingwood or Essendon?
No way I would have supported Claremont or South Freo in the VFL and hardly anyone else would have switched either. They would have been the biggest flops and have been begging to be allowed back in the WAFL inside 5 years.

 

[footyfan1978]

So you would switch support to Collingwood or Essendon?
No way I would have supported Claremont or South Freo in the VFL and hardly anyone else would have switched either. They would have been the biggest flops and have been begging to be allowed back in the WAFL inside 5 years.

It is not what you or I personally would follow. It is having options for everyone without tearing at the fabric of the sport at the time. Whether you decide to follow Clarement or South Freo is one thing in AFL but you could still have options of following other clubs in it and still behind your WAFL first love each Sunday and next generation would have the benefit of both comps to follow of their AFL club in first part of weekend and their WAFL, SANFL or VFA club on the Sunday. That opportunity is lost now. The feeder leagues are lost in the shadows of thee AFL dominating the footy lanscape from Thursday night to Sunday evening and for those generations that is all footy is now, culturally. They would not know any passion or history for clubs that had real deep rooted followings of fans from generations to the next inheriting the same joy for these leagues that did once have a real following for SANFL, WAFL and VFA each weekend right up into the early 80s before the Sydney venture into Sunday football and the continued expansion into other states with more franchises since at expense of those leagues having any day in weekend to be for them. Now the recent generations only born in last three decades have no real connection to Norwood, Port Melbourne, West Perth, Glenelg, Sturt, East Freo, Coburg etc etc. They are simply feeder teams to the AFL talent pathways with no real sense of what they once were and could have still been if admins of football had more vision back in the early to mid 80s.

 

[Liam Boy]

To answer the OP question i think the AFL is much better than what the old VFL was. Has that got anything to do with putting the sword to Fitzroy, yes it does but can you imagine the sooking by non-Vic fans about far too many Vic clubs if we still had Fitzroy in the comp?

The sad reality is that the dismantling of Fitzroy and allowing Brisbane to sift through its carcass definitely made Brisbane stronger. And having a strong, competitive Brisbane Lions is so much better than what the Brisbane Bears was. The competition needs strong clubs in all states.

So, taking into account how much the death of Fitroy in the VFL/AFL improved Brisbane I think the AFL is much better off.

I don't think this is even true, people forget that the Bears had been on a steady rise for years, with a prelim exit and a brownlow winner in 1996. If anything the "merger" unsettled them at first, with a bottom finish in 1998. They'd already built the core of their dynasty side while they were still the Bears, outside of Chris Johnson and the father-son rights to Jonathan Brown, they didn't really get much. The AFL's ongoing concessions did far more.

 

[Roylion]

He does not support them. The Bears are no longer. Only the Brisbane name was allowed to stay in this new entity from 1997 onwards.

There was no new entity. The Brisbane Bears rebranded to the Brisbane Lions.

I'm a Brisbane Lions member and supporter because of their resemblance to Fitzroy and their commemoration / celebration of Fitzroy's AFL heritage within their own club. No other AFL club does that.

 

[footyfan1978]

There was no new entity. The Brisbane Bears rebranded to the Brisbane Lions.

Yeah, I heard your take on things before. I do not buy the rebranding narrative at all. The Bears are no longer sadly.

 

[Roylion]

Yeah, I heard your take on things before. I do not buy the rebranding narrative at all. The Bears are no longer sadly.

I’m afraid they are.

Legally they are. No new licence was ever issued by the AFL to the supposedly ‘new’ Brisbane Lions.

No player contracts from the Bears to the Lions had to be re-negotiated and signed. Board of directors remained the same. The AFL count the Bears and Brisbane Lions records as one club.

 

[footyfan1978]

I’m afraid they are.

Legally they are. No new licence was ever issued by the AFL to the supposedly ‘new’ Brisbane Lions.

No player contracts from the Bears to the Lions had to be re-negotiated and signed. Board of directors remained the same. The AFL count the Bears and Brisbane Lions records as one club.

No new lience needed because the AFL called it a merger which is why whenever I look in the AFL season guide the AFL count this new entity from the merger as joining the league as below.

Lions 1997, Bears 1987 and Fitzroy 1897.
They considered the two merged clubs of Brisbane Bears and Fitzroy to form the new entity of Brisbane Lions from 1997 onwards, sadly.

 

[Roylion]

No new lience needed because the AFL called it a merger

New entity in that case which needs a new licence issued. That wasn’t the case.

And Fitzroy Football Club which used to hold an AFL licence still exists in its own right. 140 years old this year.

 

[footyfan1978]

New entity in that case which needs a new licence issued. That wasn’t the case.

It all semantics in the end with Port Power the 16th club to still have 16 teams.
The AFL achieved what they wanted of the merger sadly, of two clubs to become one and lose the Bears and Fitzroy names from the league sadly, and Power added to still have 16 teams in the league.

 

[Roylion]

The AFL achieved what they wanted of the merger sadly, of two clubs to become one

Rebranding of one club. Exit of another club which still exists to this day and plays elsewhere.

and lose the Bears and Fitzroy names from the league sadly, and Power added to still have 16 teams in the league.

That’s because Fitzroy exited the competition.

 

[dogs105]

Rebranding of one club. Exit of another club which still exists to this day and plays elsewhere.

That’s because Fitzroy exited the competition.

Did you know that they're 140 years old this year?