AFL Autopsy R20: Smashed by the Saints, and the season is cooked.

[The Dustbin]

Not the player I think of when I think of responsibility tbh

He’s talking about the “group” assuming Hird, Lloyd, Johnson’s etc.

 

[outersanctum]

Nothing you can add that we don't already know. The season, playing group and possibly club are beyond ****ed. I rashly posted at the halfway mark that this season was an improvement on last, almost on queue we haven't fired a shot since. It is almost an exact replication of last season and, most worryingly, it highlights that none of our known issues were addressed.

Problem 1: Recruiting. Our list is just woeful, unbalanced and non-competitive. We 'celebrate' trade week but yet again we do not have the list to compete. No small forwards, not a single one. No speed, really really really dumb footballers (I have maintained that we have had the dumbest football IQ in the league for last 20 years) and lack of speed across the board. Our midfield is a collection of the 'same' player - which means that if they don't match up well it is all over. Wasting a #1 pick on a half back turnover merchant probably sums in up. Most would trust Ant's judgement.. and the review is scathing. How many other teams sit and say that a top 10 midfielder needs 3 years in the VFL to be 'AFL Ready'?? To be a good club you need those young midfielders coming in and making an impact from season 1. Lack of ruck depth is alarming, Draper has never shown that he can actually be a dominant ruckman and we refuse to do anything about it. We are using a key forward as a winger and there are more holes than a dart board in our structures.

Problem 2: Selection. Scott is a stubborn bastard. Check his reviews from Norf and they gave us the good oil. Guy legit does not know how to identify a good team, change that team and adapt to conditions. Players out of position.. moving Martin back, forward and all abouts. Using 2 giraffes as wingers (looks good when they kick 1-2 goals.. but we are meant to ignore that we have ZERO defensive pressure on transition??). The non-selection of Hobbs is baffling.. the fact that Bryan can't even get a look in.. the ping pong selection of Heppell over Hind. The persistance with Perkins.. and Wright.. who are just out of form is crippling. I would add Langers in that bunch too.. either injury or confidence but looks lost right now. Picking a team of giants for games in the wet.. the list just goes on and on. Scott has limited ability to put a winning team on the table on Thursdays.

Problem 3: Leadership. McGrath as VC is all you need. Chronic lack of standards, onfield direction and players have lacked accountability for 20 years. Not sure how you change it but deep cultural issues. Tail wags the dog 100%.

Problem 4: Coaching/Game Plan. Said this consistently but it holds true. Game plan is still fuzzy.. as others have said.. what is our 'go to' style.. what are we trying to achieve. What do we want to be known for? the 'edge' was a short lived pipe dream.. there is no defensive toughness in this group.. and how do you apply manic pressure if you are playing talls everywhere?? It makes no sense. Players are still confused about defensive strategies.. our skills are lacking and we struggle to score. We just make the game looks so damn hard.

Problem 5: Fitness/Conditioning. We just suffer the same injuries all the time, constantly miss key players, and we are not fit enough. We drop off in games, drop off in seasons and just do not look fit or strong. We get muscled off the ball too easily. 20 years and multiple 'clean outs' and we still can't produce a competitive football team. Last time we actually looked match fit was Hird years. Last time this club looked like an actual AFL club is Hird years. Our recruits seem to take years, if ever, to actually 'fill out' and develop. How many years can we lament the 'boys against men' feel to our games?

There are plenty of others but that is my top 5 and they have been the same for a long time. There is no fix.. you need to clear out the junk and just bulk recruit. Trade Draper, Perkins, Parish, Shiel to grab some pick depth.. play Roberts, Tsatis, Hobbs, Bryan, Davey x 2 and just give them a month to see what they can do. Try to salvage something from yet another car crash season. The lack of effort against the Saints was deplorable.

 

[Happyskeret]

I thought I was watching an over 35 yr old team last night we moved that slow.

 

[lmaohelp]

Nothing you can add that we don't already know. The season, playing group and possibly club are beyond ****ed. I rashly posted at the halfway mark that this season was an improvement on last, almost on queue we haven't fired a shot since. It is almost an exact replication of last season and, most worryingly, it highlights that none of our known issues were addressed.

Problem 1: Recruiting. Our list is just woeful, unbalanced and non-competitive. We 'celebrate' trade week but yet again we do not have the list to compete. No small forwards, not a single one. No speed, really really really dumb footballers (I have maintained that we have had the dumbest football IQ in the league for last 20 years) and lack of speed across the board. Our midfield is a collection of the 'same' player - which means that if they don't match up well it is all over. Wasting a #1 pick on a half back turnover merchant probably sums in up. Most would trust Ant's judgement.. and the review is scathing. How many other teams sit and say that a top 10 midfielder needs 3 years in the VFL to be 'AFL Ready'?? To be a good club you need those young midfielders coming in and making an impact from season 1. Lack of ruck depth is alarming, Draper has never shown that he can actually be a dominant ruckman and we refuse to do anything about it. We are using a key forward as a winger and there are more holes than a dart board in our structures.

Problem 2: Selection. Scott is a stubborn bastard. Check his reviews from Norf and they gave us the good oil. Guy legit does not know how to identify a good team, change that team and adapt to conditions. Players out of position.. moving Martin back, forward and all abouts. Using 2 giraffes as wingers (looks good when they kick 1-2 goals.. but we are meant to ignore that we have ZERO defensive pressure on transition??). The non-selection of Hobbs is baffling.. the fact that Bryan can't even get a look in.. the ping pong selection of Heppell over Hind. The persistance with Perkins.. and Wright.. who are just out of form is crippling. I would add Langers in that bunch too.. either injury or confidence but looks lost right now. Picking a team of giants for games in the wet.. the list just goes on and on. Scott has limited ability to put a winning team on the table on Thursdays.

Problem 3: Leadership. McGrath as VC is all you need. Chronic lack of standards, onfield direction and players have lacked accountability for 20 years. Not sure how you change it but deep cultural issues. Tail wags the dog 100%.

Problem 4: Coaching/Game Plan. Said this consistently but it holds true. Game plan is still fuzzy.. as others have said.. what is our 'go to' style.. what are we trying to achieve. What do we want to be known for? the 'edge' was a short lived pipe dream.. there is no defensive toughness in this group.. and how do you apply manic pressure if you are playing talls everywhere?? It makes no sense. Players are still confused about defensive strategies.. our skills are lacking and we struggle to score. We just make the game looks so damn hard.

Problem 5: Fitness/Conditioning. We just suffer the same injuries all the time, constantly miss key players, and we are not fit enough. We drop off in games, drop off in seasons and just do not look fit or strong. We get muscled off the ball too easily. 20 years and multiple 'clean outs' and we still can't produce a competitive football team. Last time we actually looked match fit was Hird years. Last time this club looked like an actual AFL club is Hird years. Our recruits seem to take years, if ever, to actually 'fill out' and develop. How many years can we lament the 'boys against men' feel to our games?

There are plenty of others but that is my top 5 and they have been the same for a long time. There is no fix.. you need to clear out the junk and just bulk recruit. Trade Draper, Perkins, Parish, Shiel to grab some pick depth.. play Roberts, Tsatis, Hobbs, Bryan, Davey x 2 and just give them a month to see what they can do. Try to salvage something from yet another car crash season. The lack of effort against the Saints was deplorable.

100000% Agree. Draper needs to be removed he isn’t a footy player. Played soccer his whole life, footy IQ is deplorable and we certainly aren’t winning enough clearances or getting any ruck dominance with him in the side, when you are getting found out about a guy at 36, Goldy who was fresh early on you know you’re stuffed

Also does anyone have the ABC audio on Rama?

 

[outersanctum]

100000% Agree. Draper needs to be removed he isn’t a footy player. Played soccer his whole life, footy IQ is deplorable and we certainly aren’t winning enough clearances or getting any ruck dominance with him in the side, when you are getting found out about a guy at 36, Goldy who was fresh early on you know you’re stuffed

Also does anyone have the ABC audio on Rama?

Got lambasted but I've never seen the Draper thing.. like just never seen anything other than a flashy mullet that often makes dumb mistakes, can't kick, struggles to impact games, has poor fitness.. and did I mention the dumb dumb footballing decisions?

I mean he played against no rucks last week and still got beaten. Legit one of the biggest frauds on our list.

 

[lmaohelp]

Got lambasted but I've never seen the Draper thing.. like just never seen anything other than a flashy mullet that often makes dumb mistakes, can't kick, struggles to impact games, has poor fitness.. and did I mention the dumb dumb footballing decisions?

I mean he played against no rucks last week and still got beaten. Legit one of the biggest frauds on our list.

Agree. I think because Tim Watson shows support he continues to get games.

 

[jdstorm]

Well what can we really expect when 80% of the list is from an era that has been full of crap .
Sure some of the selections have been putrid but he is working with a Holden Sunbird and not a C class Mercedes .
Problem we will have is we have limited draft picks so any trades will have to involve future picks and there is only really B and C grade stuff in the FA pool .
We are in a big hole .

I hate this it’s just such an excuse…

Assuming Cox counts as a forward.

Forwards Wright, Cox, Caddy, Stringer, Langford, Perkins Gresham

That group has 5x top 10 draft pics. 2 x AA, Wright has a 50 goal season, and Gresham a band 2 level free agent.

Def: (not including Martin cause he’s a wing and shouldn’t be playing here)

1x Band 1 free agent 2x AA players 1x no1 overall pick with a top 10 pick injured and a high 2nd playing well in the vfl

Wings: Martin Dursma Jones…
1x elite wing, 1x FRP who’s playing well and 1x 196cm wing who’s still working out how to play there but has high upside as he’s only been playing there a month.

Mids:
Merrett possible AA Captain this year
Parish/Sheil -former AA players
Hobbs/Tasatas/Caldwell FRPs
Durham - great player found in midseason draft.
Setterfield - Journeyman drafted top 10 good league standard mid/forward. Pushed out of 2 stacked teams (Giants/Carlton) Can’t play wing/HB

That’s a lot of high picks and AA players. A higher percentage of these players should be good then are at Essendon which comes down to culture and development

Edit: there’s so much confirmation bias in sport. Ie team lost = shit talent. Team
Won = good talent.

 

[TheGreatBarryB]

That’s a lot of high picks and AA players. A higher percentage of these players should be good then are at Essendon which comes down to culture and development

Not necessarily. We just haven’t picked the right players. If it was development why does Durham improve so much?

 

[jdstorm]

Not necessarily. We just haven’t picked the right players. If it was development why does Durham improve so much?

Why did Merrett from pic 27.

Outliers exist and exceptional individuals have been able to grow even in an environment that has been poor for development

What we know is there are expected outcomes from top 10 picks and about 33% of the time you should get an AA player who plays 200 games.

So out of Cox Reid Perkins Hobbs Tsatas Caddy a Median outcome is 2x AA players

If this doesn’t happen with sample size of pics in that range we have had it becomes more about culture/development then drafting

 

[TheGreatBarryB]

What we know is there are expected outcomes from top 10 picks and about 33% of the time you should get an AA player who plays 200 games.

So out of Cox Reid Perkins Hobbs Tsatas Caddy a Median outcome is 2x AA players

Small sample size..like the toss of the coin in a small sample you could miss out 5 out of 5 etc. Development worked with Merrett, Ridley, Redman etc so should work with higher picks ..but if you haven’t picked right one ..

 

[Wahooti Fandango]

It's the year 2024; another false dawn for Essington...

 

[BomberManU]

The Blitz is saying Rama on the ABC said the players didn't react well to be given a baking during the week and that might explain today's attitude.

Has this been confirmed? Staggering, if true. Time to cut deep into the list.
Whether people like it or not, pressure is going to ramp up on Scott, I'm guessing.

 

[gPhonque]

This. Our forward problems have not materialised overnight - this has been going on for weeks. Giving Wright games creates so many problems, I’m not going to start other than to say it limits us.

Next, the one consistent trend this year (even in games we have won) is that the opposition backs either intercept or spoil to the front of packs and then run it out. They invariably transition easily and score from it. Our lack of ability to lock the ball in our forward half is amateurish.

So, here’s the kicker - Dale Tapping is our forwards coach and Scott oversees the whole thing. Given that their full time position is to work these things out it is laughable that, while this trend has been obvious all year, they can’t sort this out. It’s their job FFS.

Finally, the fact that Scott persists with a failed plan by choosing the same players with the same structures suggests he is a very slow learner. It appears he is too proud and stubborn.

We need two things 1. A shorter, quicker side, and 2. Blooding youngsters. We have so many players down on form and confidence that relatively inexperienced players couldn’t really do much worse.

This.

The fact that our inside 50 game plan seems to be revolving around somebody taking a contested mark is just peak stupidity. I say “game plan” based on what I’m seeing, the way we’re moving the ball week in week out, and Scott’s overly tall (and/or slow) selections.

Guess which club have averaged the LEAST amount of contested marks per game for the season? (HINT: it’s not us… and they’re probably going to be 2 and a half games clear on top of the ladder by the end of today)

And yet, as far as I can tell, Scott seems intent on us playing an inside 50 game revolving entirely around somebody taking a contested mark. (and to a point, also around the ground based on where and how he’s using Jones and Cox)

It’s just dumb.

People can talk about how “so-and-so” isn’t pulling his weight, or how “this guy” or “that guy” should be playing ressies, or how “our list isn’t up to scratch”, or how our “accuracy kicking for goal is killing us” etc etc etc… but it’s all completely f%*king irrelevant if we have a coach who is instructing them to play an out-dated 90s/2000s style of football. (which again, seems to be the case based on what we’ve all been watching, and the teams he’s been selecting)

Even if we had the cattle to play that game, it would still be dumb. It’s too easy to shut down and then rebound against. (as we’ve all quite clearly seen the past 4-5 weeks)

But we don’t even have the bloody cattle.

Peter Wright was an absolute embarrassment yesterday. Can’t mark, is soft as butter, slow as hell, and has ZERO ground-ball game… just an absolute dinosaur… and yet we cling onto him as being some great hope because he once (ONCE!) kicked 7 goals in a game.

Somebody in the game day thread yesterday said something along the lines of “so what’s our game plan? Slowly chip through the zone, and then it bomb it long to a crowded forward 50?”

Yup, pretty much.

If Scott can’t see this (or even worse, if he’s responsible for it), then he needs to go before he does any more damage.

 

[Sleepwalker]

Can't wait for Draper to line the little shit up so he can have early holidays. Parker is a flog of the highest order

I can only dream Parker could play for us. He’s not that stupid but.

 

[boncer34]

This.

The fact that our inside 50 game plan seems to be revolving around somebody taking a contested mark is just peak stupidity. I say “game plan” based on what I’m seeing, the way we’re moving the ball week in week out, and Scott’s overly tall (and/or slow) selections.

Guess which club have averaged the LEAST amount of contested marks per game for the season? (HINT: it’s not us… and they’re probably going to be 2 and a half games clear on top of the ladder by the end of today)

And yet, as far as I can tell, Scott seems intent on us playing an inside 50 game revolving entirely around somebody taking a contested mark. (and to a point, also around the ground based on where and how he’s using Jones and Cox)

It’s just dumb.

People can talk about how “so-and-so” isn’t pulling his weight, or how “this guy” or “that guy” should be playing ressies, or how “our list isn’t up to scratch”, or how our “accuracy kicking for goal is killing us” etc etc etc… but it’s all completely f%*king irrelevant if we have a coach who is instructing them to play an out-dated 90s/2000s style of football. (which again, seems to be the case based on what we’ve all been watching, and the teams he’s been selecting)

Even if we had the cattle to play that game, it would still be dumb. It’s too easy to shut down and then rebound against. (as we’ve all quite clearly seen the past 4-5 weeks)

But we don’t even have the bloody cattle.

Peter Wright was an absolute embarrassment yesterday. Can’t mark, is soft as butter, slow as hell, and has ZERO ground-ball game… just an absolute dinosaur… and yet we cling onto him as being some great hope because he once (ONCE!) kicked 7 goals in a game.

Somebody in the game day thread yesterday said something along the lines of “so what’s our game plan? Slowly chip through the zone, and then it bomb it long to a crowded forward 50?”

Yup, pretty much.

If Scott can’t see this (or even worse, if he’s responsible for it), then he needs to go before he does any more damage.

Excellent summary

 

[mcgrath_truther]

This.

The fact that our inside 50 game plan seems to be revolving around somebody taking a contested mark is just peak stupidity. I say “game plan” based on what I’m seeing, the way we’re moving the ball week in week out, and Scott’s overly tall (and/or slow) selections.

Guess which club have averaged the LEAST amount of contested marks per game for the season? (HINT: it’s not us… and they’re probably going to be 2 and a half games clear on top of the ladder by the end of today)

And yet, as far as I can tell, Scott seems intent on us playing an inside 50 game revolving entirely around somebody taking a contested mark. (and to a point, also around the ground based on where and how he’s using Jones and Cox)

It’s just dumb.

People can talk about how “so-and-so” isn’t pulling his weight, or how “this guy” or “that guy” should be playing ressies, or how “our list isn’t up to scratch”, or how our “accuracy kicking for goal is killing us” etc etc etc… but it’s all completely f%*king irrelevant if we have a coach who is instructing them to play an out-dated 90s/2000s style of football. (which again, seems to be the case based on what we’ve all been watching, and the teams he’s been selecting)

Even if we had the cattle to play that game, it would still be dumb. It’s too easy to shut down and then rebound against. (as we’ve all quite clearly seen the past 4-5 weeks)

But we don’t even have the bloody cattle.

Peter Wright was an absolute embarrassment yesterday. Can’t mark, is soft as butter, slow as hell, and has ZERO ground-ball game… just an absolute dinosaur… and yet we cling onto him as being some great hope because he once (ONCE!) kicked 7 goals in a game.

Somebody in the game day thread yesterday said something along the lines of “so what’s our game plan? Slowly chip through the zone, and then it bomb it long to a crowded forward 50?”

Yup, pretty much.

If Scott can’t see this (or even worse, if he’s responsible for it), then he needs to go before he does any more damage.

spot on, great post

 

[Squeaky]

I hate this it’s just such an excuse…

Assuming Cox counts as a forward.

Forwards Wright, Cox, Caddy, Stringer, Langford, Perkins Gresham

That group has 5x top 10 draft pics. 2 x AA, Wright has a 50 goal season, and Gresham a band 2 level free agent.

Def: (not including Martin cause he’s a wing and shouldn’t be playing here)

1x Band 1 free agent 2x AA players 1x no1 overall pick with a top 10 pick injured and a high 2nd playing well in the vfl

Wings: Martin Dursma Jones…
1x elite wing, 1x FRP who’s playing well and 1x 196cm wing who’s still working out how to play there but has high upside as he’s only been playing there a month.

Mids:
Merrett possible AA Captain this year
Parish/Sheil -former AA players
Hobbs/Tasatas/Caldwell FRPs
Durham - great player found in midseason draft.
Setterfield - Journeyman drafted top 10 good league standard mid/forward. Pushed out of 2 stacked teams (Giants/Carlton) Can’t play wing/HB

That’s a lot of high picks and AA players. A higher percentage of these players should be good then are at Essendon which comes down to culture and development

Edit: there’s so much confirmation bias in sport. Ie team lost = shit talent. Team
Won = good talent.

The sum of this current team is less than its parts based on your summation of each line.

It's the not turning up to play that grates on me the most - I thought we had gotten past that, but here we are... again!
FFS!

 

[Squeaky]

Has this been confirmed? Staggering, if true. Time to cut deep into the list.
Whether people like it or not, pressure is going to ramp up on Scott, I'm guessing.

True on both counts...
If there is any truth in that Rama stuff we cannot cut hard enough.
And also - B Scott will be under pressure - and so he should. I think he is working on the culture part, more strength to him on that. But culture includes selection integrity and he fails on that count. Dropping and reinstating Hepp and Wright on the back of NO GAME was utter crap - you cannot convince me any different.

 

[BigMonty]

Sorry to intrude and never post on oppo boards.....for obvious reasons.

Reading this thread is sooo similar to reading the Saints thread after a bad loss and this was a very bad loss for your club.

On Saints thread we have all said the following just like you guys are doing;
Sack the coach,
Forward entries are shit
Forwards not leading up
Leadership is shit.
Older players aren't up to it
On ballers play bruise free footy they're shit.
Our recruiting is shit etc

As a Saints supporter we have learnt things are never as good as them seem nor as bad as they seem.

You are a better side than you have shown against us but like us, sadly not top 6.

Difficult decision time at end of the year for your coaches regarding a few loyal soldiers...


On SM-S916B using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[DallasCrane316]

Man, that's a bit much. Abusing your own team. You wonder what else the players endure.

I think we need to realise, the players might just be at the behest of the list they are given and the limitations of their own skill ceiling.

Some of this really is on our list management and the coaching not getting the results. It's not just the players.

I agree. It was uncomfortable to watch that. Worth noting that a few comments on Twitter have indicated that there were a number of Saints supporters there yelling at the players btw. Triple M posted this just before and it seems to support that.

 

[Maxabillions]

If only I could tell you what I have heard he was telling the players just a few weeks ago. It's bloody hilarious.

Go on

 

[Mr Bultitude]

I agree. It was uncomfortable to watch that. Worth noting that a few comments on Twitter have indicated that there were a number of Saints supporters there yelling at the players btw. Triple M posted this just before and it seems to support that.

View attachment 2061372

Shut up, Daisy.

 

[MightyDon]

I agree. It was uncomfortable to watch that. Worth noting that a few comments on Twitter have indicated that there were a number of Saints supporters there yelling at the players btw. Triple M posted this just before and it seems to support that.

View attachment 2061372

Daisy looks pretty baked himself

 

[Ess2025]

A lot of folks say we don't have the cattle. I disagree with this. I think we have so many players who are down in form and confidence. Persisting with the current game plan and structures further erodes this. It seems Scott is losing the players - they look like they don’t believe. It’s a worry because I don’t see how we improve on current output with this system in place.

 

[Donakebab]

You know things look proper grim when a burnout like Cupido is questioning players on responsibility.