Play Nice Referendum - Indigenous Voice in Parliament - Part 2

[Gethelred]

Link to the proposed Referendum, from the Referendum Working Group:

(Edited 6 April 2023)

These are the words that will be put to the Australian people in the upcoming referendum as agreed by the Referendum Working Group (made up of representatives of First Nations communities from around Australia):

"A Proposed Law: to alter the Constitution to recognise the First Peoples of Australia by establishing an Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Voice. Do you approve this proposed alteration?"

As well as that, it will be put to Australians that the constitution be amended to include a new chapter titled "Recognition of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Peoples".

The details would be:


View attachment 1636890

The Prime Minister has committed to the government introducing legislation with this wording to parliament on 30 March 2023 and to establishing a joint parliamentary committee to consider it and receive submissions on the wording, providing ALL members of Parliament with the opportunity to consider and debate the full details of the proposal.

Parliament will then vote on the wording in June in the lead up to a National Referendum.

The ANU has issued a paper responding to common public concerns expressed in relation to the proposed Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Voice here:

Indigenous Voice to Parliament | Australian National University

Responding to common concerns about an aboriginal and torres strait islander voice First Nations portfolio Background

www.anu.edu.au

Summary details of the key points from this paper may be found in Chief post here:

The Uluru Statement from the Heart:

Not specifically No. In any case it does not form part of the Referendum proposal.

View attachment 1769742

Seeing as things have gotten a bit toxic in here, let's try to return things to a more civil tone.

The following will result in warnings to begin with, and if said behaviour continues will be escalated:

• referring to another poster as racist without direct provocation.
• dismissing or deriding another poster's lived experience.
• personal attacks or one line posts designed solely to insult or deride.

You might notice that the final rule is from the board rules. Thought we should probably remember that this is against the rules in case it's been forgotten.

Let's play nicely from here, people.

 

[burge13]

pretty much. all part of the big pile on where people take the NO result as a green light to say things they've always wanted to say. Sort of like a campaigner license

Haven't seen a pile on here at all. Disagreement, sure. No pile on at all. At least not from No voters

 

[Reg Grundy35]

Haven't seen a pile on here at all. Disagreement, sure. No pile on at all. At least not from No voters

you have to count the faux-YES's too

 

[phantom13]

Haven't seen a pile on here at all. Disagreement, sure. No pile on at all. At least not from No voters

I think theres been a few pile ons both ways. IMO most of the ones coming from Yes voters have been to some pretty blatantly obvious racism but im absolutely biased.

 

[burge13]

I think theres been a few pile ons both ways. IMO most of the ones coming from Yes voters have been to some pretty blatantly obvious racism but im absolutely biased.

There has been very little 'blatant racism' either lol. Mods would have banned posters and deleted the posts. if this 'blatant racism' existed the thread wouldn't be 471 pages into part 2...

Disagreements =/= racism

 

[phantom13]

There has been very little 'blatant racism' either lol. Mods would have banned posters and deleted the posts. if this 'blatant racism' existed the thread wouldn't be 471 pages into part 2...

Disagreements =/= racism

Trust me, there are more deletes and edits than you think. Theres quite a bit of editing to make something pretty blatant much more subtle.

Ive had plenty of disagreements with people in this thread, not all of them have been racist but some have, some have been pretty blatant too.

Im happy to admit im biased, seems you dont think you are.

 

[CM86]

I think theres been a few pile ons both ways. IMO most of the ones coming from Yes voters have been to some pretty blatantly obvious racism but im absolutely biased.

You made another great post the other day, clearly explaining your position, and asking a clear question.
adogsfan5 was the only poster who attempted to engage with actually responding to you.

Almost every other reply was just the usual attempt from dishonest posters to turn it into an attack on you as they attempted to push the narrative that 'no voters' are the real victims in all of this.





If you point out to No voters that Aboriginal people live in cities, and face disparate outcomes in those areas as well... It's viewed as an attack on No voters, and reignites the idiotic "The Yes campaign caused the loss!!!" talking point all over again.
Without sophistry or lies, they have nothing.

This is just a fun thread for them to bask in the defeat of Indigenous recognition and Aboriginal issues.

 

[phantom13]

You made another great post the other day, clearly explaining your position, and asking a clear question.
adogsfan5 was the only poster who attempted to engage with actually responding to you.

Almost every other reply was just the usual attempt from dishonest posters to turn it into an attack on you as they attempted to push the narrative that 'no voters' are the real victims in all of this.





If you point out to No voters that Aboriginal people live in cities, and face disparate outcomes in those areas as well... It's viewed as an attack on No voters, and reignites the idiotic "The Yes campaign caused the loss!!!" talking point all over again.
Without sophistry or lies, they have nothing.

This is just a fun thread for them to bask in the defeat of Indigenous recognition and Aboriginal issues.

At the risk of being all "i really try" i generally do try to approach these sorts of convos pretty earnestly and honestly, like everyone im prone to getting fed up with bullshit trolls and strawmans but for the most part i find it far more helpful to be sincere, not everyone does and especially when theyre removed from the discussion as so many Australians are when it comes to Indigenous welfare.

Ultimately ive really ****ing despised the way this discussion on the Voice has gone because its more often than not fallen into taking sides and general racist tropes and stereotypes coupled with a bit of misinformation and general shithousery.

And as has been said so many times now, the grand sum of it all is Indigenous Australia gets forgotten again.

Its sad, everyone in here has made the comment we all want to see improvement for Indigenous Australia, even the no voters (save for a couple with that standard "they already get too much") yet here was an opportunity to listen and do something and we said no.

Anyway, ive wasted way too much time in here and theres nothing left to gain. X

 

[Reg Grundy35]

This is just a fun thread for them to bask in the defeat of Indigenous recognition and Aboriginal issues.

Precisely. And some of the ones who claim to have voted yes but quote Dutton's talking points are the worst

 

[The Punter]

You made another great post the other day, clearly explaining your position, and asking a clear question.
adogsfan5 was the only poster who attempted to engage with actually responding to you.

Almost every other reply was just the usual attempt from dishonest posters to turn it into an attack on you as they attempted to push the narrative that 'no voters' are the real victims in all of this.

If you point out to No voters that Aboriginal people live in cities, and face disparate outcomes in those areas as well... It's viewed as an attack on No voters, and reignites the idiotic "The Yes campaign caused the loss!!!" talking point all over again.
Without sophistry or lies, they have nothing.

This is just a fun thread for them to bask in the defeat of Indigenous recognition and Aboriginal issues.

If you act like the Yes campaign didn't make obvious and easy to avoid errors in their campaign, then they are doomed to make the same mistakes again for similar results. I'd rather that didn't happen.

 

[burge13]

Trust me, there are more deletes and edits than you think. Theres quite a bit of editing to make something pretty blatant much more subtle.

Ive had plenty of disagreements with people in this thread, not all of them have been racist but some have, some have been pretty blatant too.

Im happy to admit im biased, seems you dont think you are.

Can only go off what I've read. I haven't seen any 'blatant racism' and think you're conflating a differing opinion with racism. I don't believe that to be 'bias' tbh.

But when the majority of people think no voters are inherently racist and there was no reason to vote No then you're bound to be bias here I guess

 

[ElectricG]

At the risk of being all "i really try" i generally do try to approach these sorts of convos pretty earnestly and honestly, like everyone im prone to getting fed up with bullshit trolls and strawmans but for the most part i find it far more helpful to be sincere, not everyone does and especially when theyre removed from the discussion as so many Australians are when it comes to Indigenous welfare.

Ultimately ive really ******* despised the way this discussion on the Voice has gone because its more often than not fallen into taking sides and general racist tropes and stereotypes coupled with a bit of misinformation and general shithousery.

And as has been said so many times now, the grand sum of it all is Indigenous Australia gets forgotten again.

Its sad, everyone in here has made the comment we all want to see improvement for Indigenous Australia, even the no voters (save for a couple with that standard "they already get too much") yet here was an opportunity to listen and do something and we said no.

Anyway, ive wasted way too much time in here and theres nothing left to gain. X

It hasn’t gone unappreciated by me that while you’ve been one of the more invested and spicier posters here, you haven’t been handing out bullshit infractions and threadbans.

 

[Chief]

Yeah, I've had my fun here. I'll do a bit more shitposting on the cricket thread then take a break if that's ok.

adogsfan5 - Final word on it.

 

[Carringbush2010]

There's obviously been too much broadbrushing and not enough nuance from the usual suspects from both sides and usually intentionally in bad faith.

For example the few that hold the view 'every no voter is a racist' < that's like saying 60% of the electorate are one neuron voters. If you seriously believe that than that's a failure of our democracy that you're allowed to vote.

Same for the 'look what you made me do' - the simplistic view from the no side that labeling is a very big part of the reason for the no vote. That's very snowflakey, being called a racist when you believe you aren't should not lead you to 'fu I'll vote no then'.

Such a shame civil discussion is tossed in favour of snarky bickering.

Spose I shouldn't expect better from the kindergarten actors in here.

 

[Kram]

Great post, rich and compelling insight.

Seriously though we've all been around this how many times now?

It's just going around in circles now, people need to move on.

 

[Reg Grundy35]

If you act like the Yes campaign didn't make obvious and easy to avoid errors in their campaign, then they are doomed to make the same mistakes again for similar results. I'd rather that didn't happen.

yeah there were ineffective strategies but the more I read threads like this the more I doubt it wouldn't matter what they did really. There was bullshit spread by No influencers, and the majority it seems were more than happy to snap it up. All you have to do is feed people lies that they WANT to believe.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

If you act like the Yes campaign didn't make obvious and easy to avoid errors in their campaign, then they are doomed to make the same mistakes again for similar results. I'd rather that didn't happen.

Is the "yes campaign" now a permanent organisation?

 

[The Punter]

yeah there were ineffective strategies but the more I read threads like this the more I doubt it wouldn't matter what they did really. There was bullshit spread by No influencers, and the majority it seems were more than happy to snap it up. All you have to do is feed people lies that they WANT to believe.

I don't make these observations to pile on the Yes campaign, but any unsuccessful campaign must primarily focus on what they should have done differently. I grow tired of hearing, in the circles I mix in, about "the left-wing media" and "indoctrination of kids at school". It entrenches a culture of helplessness and failure, and I never hear these gripes then followed with a practical, achievable plan to remedy the situation.

Not an achievable aim: changing who owns media outlets.

Is the "yes campaign" now a permanent organisation?

It certainly contained a lot of people who will be involved in political campaigns in the future.

 

[South of the Yarra]

Can only go off what I've read. I haven't seen any 'blatant racism' and think you're conflating a differing opinion with racism. I don't believe that to be 'bias' tbh.

But when the majority of people think no voters are inherently racist and there was no reason to vote No then you're bound to be bias here I guess

There has been substantial blatant racism in this thread. It has been dealt with quickly and effectively by mods.

 

[burge13]

There has been substantial blatant racism in this thread. It has been dealt with quickly and effectively by mods.

So deleted, good. I thought people meant in regards to all of our conversations in which case regardless of differing opinions hasn't been racist. Apologies

 

[CM86]

If you act like the Yes campaign didn't make obvious and easy to avoid errors in their campaign, then they are doomed to make the same mistakes again for similar results. I'd rather that didn't happen.

Happy to discuss them.

What's one of the main obvious and easy to avoid errors that you believe impacted the results?

And when do you think the next campaign for Indigenous recognition and closing the gap will be?

 

[CM86]

Most of the posters in this thread who haven't noticed any form of racism... Also don't see the problem with what Pauline Hanson says or does.

But they won't let this get them down or pause to reconsider their rhetoric.
They're too busy celebrating their win over Aboriginal people, and pwning progressives.

 

[Reg Grundy35]

So deleted, good. I thought people meant in regards to all of our conversations in which case regardless of differing opinions hasn't been racist. Apologies

not sure you get to decide whats racist and whats not sorry

 

[Roby]

So there you have it. When we get right down to it this whole thread has been largely seen as a yet another victory lap by those who voted NO or even worse - those who possibly voted NO and then pretended they voted YES in an attempt to even get people to even read their tripe.

It's amazing, nearly everyone in this thread voted Yes. Even those that continued to complain about Yes voters and the Yes campaign, voted Yes. The vote turn out in this thread is like 90% yes, yet somehow 60% of the population voted No.

 

[burge13]

It's amazing, nearly everyone in this thread voted Yes. Even those that continued to complain about Yes voters and the Yes campaign, voted Yes. The vote turn out in this thread is like 90% yes, yet somehow 60% of the population voted No.

This whole post just shows what a bubble you live in

 

[SaintsSeptember]

It's amazing, nearly everyone in this thread voted Yes. Even those that continued to complain about Yes voters and the Yes campaign, voted Yes. The vote turn out in this thread is like 90% yes, yet somehow 60% of the population voted No.

The people i know who voted NO didn't want to discuss it.