Opinion Round 16 Changes vs. Carlton

[poshman]

Not so much the cattle but the gameplan.

Had to attack them. Tis how we beat them last year and why Geelong has had success against them.

As soon as it was locked in our forward 50m for 5 minutes I knew it would end poorly because eventually they would break and have an open forward line.

Im not sure with the cattle we have we can play a gameplan as attacking as the cats. We dont have the footskills... see suban and deboer (before anyone says anything suban is a long kick but not a great kick and very often not a good kick. MDB is not even a good kick) to play like the cats did. Sydney having franklin helps their forward line out and keeps them attacking but then again, they got smashed in the GF last year too.

I simply think that although they might not offer as much immediately as suban and mdb. Weller and blakely etc might be able to offer as much and prove to show enough early to stay in the team while being able to offer more long term. If we arent going to have turn over through free agency we have to introduce players through the draft.

 

[Cobbler]

Honestly why not. Just think back to the things that were going on after the first 8 rounds. This has been the most disappointing 6 weeks I can remember under Ross. I just hate that our awesome start hasnt given the squad even one ounce of self belief or arrogance.

Pav, Mundy, Ballas, Barlow, Duffield, Mayne all vital and all seemingly either playing with zero confidence or not giving a **** or injured. Its diabolical man. Do they not want another go? like last year, did they not want another go? I WANT ANOTHER GO!!!

Screw being a powerhouse, the AFL will just support us like it does with NTH and the Saints etc. This club was financially on the up when we were average, all thats left is the flag for me. I just want one flag!

I hear you, but it's not like we have been the dominant side for a few years and failed.

2013 was a true opportunity to pinch one.

I think we have punched above our weight for sometime and eventually you run into a side that knocks you out.

If we can finish top 2 we could enter the GF and all things being in our favour pinch this years, but to think we have been a raging favourite and have failed is selling the club and what they done in recent years very short IMO.

1 week is a long time in football.

I remember at the start of the year seeing our opening month and thinking if we could go 2-2 then we'd have possibly caused at least 1 upset. 3-1 would've been an outrageous start. So to be 12-2 and losing to Hawks... not some poor side is not the end of the world.

 

[ydraw]

I'm not defending those changes being made. But be realistic, Hartung isn't going to win it for Hawthorn, Weller isn't going to win it for us.

Langford won it for Hawthorn last year.

 

[salim malik]

Honestly why not. Just think back to the things that were going on after the first 8 rounds. This has been the most disappointing 6 weeks I can remember under Ross. I just hate that our awesome start hasnt given the squad even one ounce of self belief or arrogance.

Pav, Mundy, Ballas, Barlow, Duffield, Mayne all vital and all seemingly either playing with zero confidence or not giving a **** or injured. Its diabolical man. Do they not want another go? like last year, did they not want another go? I WANT ANOTHER GO!!!

Screw being a powerhouse, the AFL will just support us like it does with NTH and the Saints etc. This club was financially on the up when we were average, all thats left is the flag for me. I just want one flag!

Our awesome start has given us an easy run in the last rounds and a second to none chance of home finals.Hawthorns average to poor start has given them playing catchup for the next eight weeks and the possibility of travel to start their finals.The bullshit going on about a loss in Tasmania that even the most optimistic supporter had pencilled in for a loss is astounding.If we had of lost by 30 instead of the 70 every body would have been over the moon .
12 and 2 and a top 2 finish on the cards was a dream that nobody could have envisaged.The coaching panel would be over the moon and having eight weeks to solve any problems in a softer draw is just what Ross said at the start of the season he wanted.Before we pull the shade down on the season lets see what unfolds in the coming weeks.We have our full defence back in a few weeks.

 

[Lost_Deputy]

Going thru the Hawks list and ours there are few obsolete standouts that make our list seem incapable. Our backs are equal to theirs. Arguments can be made of theirs being more attacking but that is about gameplan and mindset, not personnel. Mids, meh. Our ruckman is godly and we have some insane quality in there. Is it equal? Not too far off. Again, probably uneven to a point but in no way lopsided enough to be smashed.
Fwd line our stats will show we are incompetent compared to the Hawks but looking at personnel we have some talent down there. Not great but not nothing.
I think we have severely overlooked our HF and HB line. These are the lines where we have been broken down by the Hawks and Richmond. We have people playing out of position and away from their strengths. These are not the lines to just clog up with new players. These are the lines that you can transition from and destroy zones. Feel like this could be explored if big changes were looked at.

 

[Cobbler]

Im not sure with the cattle we have we can play a gameplan as attacking as the cats. We dont have the footskills... see suban and deboer (before anyone says anything suban is a long kick but not a great kick and very often not a good kick. MDB is not even a good kick) to play like the cats did. Sydney having franklin helps their forward line out and keeps them attacking but then again, they got smashed in the GF last year too.

I simply think that although they might not offer as much immediately as suban and mdb. Weller and blakely etc might be able to offer as much and prove to show enough early to stay in the team while being able to offer more long term. If we arent going to have turn over through free agency we have to introduce players through the draft.

Foot skills are a bit about perception. We don't turn and go quick enough, yet we were doing this early this year. The wet conditions have obviously not helped.

Geelong didn't fear using the corridor. Their players would look for it early and their team mates would be on the move. Their foot skills weren't exactly sublime. Same as Port last year. They had a clear game plan to attack the middle and seemed to move the ball so quickly and precise, but that was because everyone was on the same page. Teams now block up the middle... their footskills havent changed one bit but the perception is they are no longer as good as last year... well they ain't but its because of game plan not individual ability.

WCE only 2 years ago had shocking footskills but again it was because they had no clear direction. Now they have a very similar style to Hawks, due to Adam Simpson time there and now they all look like millionaires who can't put a foot wrong.

Duffield is the prime example for us. When confident he can hit a target and take it on through the middle because he just goes. Now he shits himself and has to play it safe... in doing so not only is he taking more time but he obviously is less likely to hit a target as defenders close in on targets.

How many times live at a game have you shouted out like they can hear you at someone free, only to watch our player bumble about before being forced to go long down the line.

Hill is a wonderful user of the ball because he moves, gives himself space and in doing so makes others up the ground move and hence he can hit them. He is as useless as the next guy when ball is fired back to him and he has to kick off one step.

Johnson is another great user because of his movement and ability to get himself into space.

In summary we ain't moving.

 

[Wizard]

Clancee Pearce out?
He didn't look well, anyone know the story?

 

[Steinfreo]

Our awesome start has given us an easy run in the last rounds and a second to none chance of home finals.Hawthorns average to poor start has given them playing catchup for the next eight weeks and the possibility of travel to start their finals.The bullshit going on about a loss in Tasmania that even the most optimistic supporter had pencilled in for a loss is astounding.If we had of lost by 30 instead of the 70 every body would have been over the moon .
12 and 2 and a top 2 finish on the cards was a dream that nobody could have envisaged.The coaching panel would be over the moon and having eight weeks to solve any problems in a softer draw is just what Ross said at the start of the season he wanted.Before we pull the shade down on the season lets see what unfolds in the coming weeks.We have our full defence back in a few weeks.

I'm usually pretty optimistic and I've been saying stuff like your quote. I'm just not seeing it now. Im hoping its a bit like that massive Geelong lose in 06 when we like won 9 in a row after some passionate team meeting.

Initially I wanted us to send the B-team to Tassie but I got convinced on here that this game was gonne be a big one. I just wanted us to come out snarling and I was hoping we would reset for the Hawks game and give it a red hot go. We just didnt.

 

[ydraw]

Could it be anymore obvious what the changes will be?

In: Tabs, Sutty
Out: Gu, Suban

Gu was one of our best.

 

[Lost_Deputy]

I'm usually pretty optimistic and I've been saying stuff like your quote. I'm just not seeing it now. Im hoping its a bit like that massive Geelong lose in 06 when we like won 9 in a row after some passionate team meeting.

Initially I wanted us to send the B-team to Tassie but I got convinced on here that this game was gonne be a big one. I just wanted us to come out snarling and I was hoping we would reset for the Hawks game and give it a red hot go. We just didnt.

Best thing we did was not send our b team.

 

[ydraw]

Weller replace d.pearce .A lot of people said how he help hills, i want to see freo and hills play well without him on the side.

D Pearce will not get dropped.

 

[ydraw]

Subans been dropped and will be again,this week probably.

Not been dropped since 2012.

 

[clogged]

And what precipitated Simpson's demise was after making an exciting & promising debut he was left out for a half fit Mayne who did nothing & we got our ass handed to us by Sydney. He may never have made it but God I'd have loved to see that kid play another game of football. Instead we banish him to preserve our sacred discipline & persist with Mayne who has barely played a good game since because he's a team driver.
Mayne meanwhile has become a robot devoid of any flair whose obsessive kicking routine has got him so tied in knots he's forgotten how to just naturally kick a footy.
Ballantine couldn't get a kick in a stampede at the moment & we leave out long kicking offensive players like Crozier for the likes of DeBoer who can't kick a football 40M with the wind & Suban whose football IQ is on a par with Stephen Dodd.
Is it any wonder the team is playing like one that is out of ideas?
I actually reckon Fyfey dropped his bundle a bit today when he realized how outclassed we were & that Hawks players had an open ticket to bash up on him today while anything he did was an automatic free to them.

This is a great post, Simpson was such a waste. Maybe it would have always gone that way, but bringing back Mayne for the following match was a mistake. He was out of form then and has never recaptured it. Despite having only kick 26 goals from 33 games since then he has only missed one game. A forward shouldn't average less than a goal per game over a long stretch. Something is wrong if that happens and it is up to the coaches to remedy it. They haven't - maybe they can't? And now it has infected the rest of the forwards, with only one in what you'd call reasonable form this year - Walters.

Fyfe had no support - it was sad to see. Hawthorn got right into him, made sure he had no space, couldn't break tackles, etc. What was a great team-based Freo performance in 2013 has become a one man show where a superstar is required to do the lot. Everyone else is just cruising. Other 'leaders' have returned to their pre-Lyon shells.

 

[Kram]

Anyone that doesn't turn up for plane flight just because they weren't selected is an absolute muppet, if it wasn't that he would have done would have eventually done something else stupid.

 

[ydraw]

Where are they on the ladder?

Please name me someone playing not because of injury and I'll quite likely show you that you're wrong or that they aren't in a premiership window.

Hartung for Hawks
Zak Jones, Jake Lloyd, Daniel Robinson for Sydney
Dom Sheed, Liam Duggan for West Coast

 

[ydraw]

Who from Hawthorn is playing and getting game time as a first year player?

MDB went back to the WAFL and tore it a new one. Made the kids look silly. Please check his stats and output. Mzungu has been doing likewise.

Duffield went back to the WAFL and got 9 touches then was straight back in the team. Suban hasn't played WAFL since 2012 and has never gotten more than 22 possies in his WAFL career.

 

[TheInjuryFactory]

Langford won it for Hawthorn last year.

He was drafted in 2011 under a scholarship, debuted in 2013. A little bit different mate.

Hardly won it off his own boot either, it was a demolition by a superior team.

Roughy kicked 5. Hodge, Lewis, Mitchell all immense. Strange he didn't win the Norm Smith if he won it for them don't you think??

 

[Cobbler]

Hartung for Hawks
Zak Jones, Jake Lloyd, Daniel Robinson for Sydney
Dom Sheed, Liam Duggan for West Coast

Liam Duggan is the only one drafted in 2014.

The rest were drafted in 2013.

Plus I already explained how Duggan got games.

If using 2013 draft we have Apeness 2 games injured this year but would've been given opportunites.
Taberner 24 career games
A Pearce 6 career games.

So that's 32 games to our talls. An area I've already discussed has presented itself.

So yeah... didn't really do your argument any favours listing those players.

 

[Cobbler]

Duffield went back to the WAFL and got 9 touches then was straight back in the team. Suban hasn't played WAFL since 2012 and has never gotten more than 22 possies in his WAFL career.

Read the thread and my comments.

They were the 2 I also highlighted, so not sure why you're quoting me with something I agreed with you on.

 

[ydraw]

Read the thread and my comments.

I comment as I read the post in question. If you've addressed that later in the thread then I apologise.

 

[Cobbler]

Ok I'll give my ins and outs.

Firstly this won't happen but I'd move Fyfe to the forward line. This approach is 2 fold. One to having a marking forward but 2 to find out who wants to step up in our midfield and to have a plan B when Fyfe isn't there.

Out: Clancee (concussion, 6 day break), Suban, DeBoer
In: Sutcliffe, Taberner, Blakely

 

[clogged]

Anyone that doesn't turn up for plane flight just because they weren't selected is an absolute muppet, if it wasn't that he would have done would have eventually done something else stupid.

Probably, but Freo still drafted that muppet and picked him the week earlier. It's a waste of talent and its cost the club.

Up to the coaches to manage the expectations of the players.

 

[Cobbler]

Probably, but Freo still drafted that muppet and picked him the week earlier. It's a waste of talent and its cost the club.

Up to the coaches to manage the expectations of the players.

You're damn straight it cost the club. There's hundreds who would've worked their backsides off for their opportunity. RTB doesn't get seduced by talent. He cost the club alright. Massive waste of a first rounder.

 

[jedi mind tricks]

Probably, but Freo still drafted that muppet and picked him the week earlier. It's a waste of talent and its cost the club.

Up to the coaches to manage the expectations of the players.

There was more to the delisting than just him not rocking up. I'm glad he's not with Freo anymore.

 

[E Shed]

Anyone that doesn't turn up for plane flight just because they weren't selected is an absolute muppet, if it wasn't that he would have done would have eventually done something else stupid.

I don't actually disagree with your premise but I used that as an example to illustrate the mindset of our selectors.
On one hand we have a kid who just about ran a lap of the oval in excitement when he came on and when he settled down showed enough to say that he was going to be an excitement machine and on the other hand we have an out of form, still injured Mayne.
Some people would have rolled the dice and said, lets see the kid play another one, give him a full game, see what he can do.
Freo took the safe conservative option and we still lost. We played our best available team in the GF in 2014 and we came up short. Since then we've added some players to the list who look to have considerably more potential than some of those incumbents who proved they weren't up to the job. And instead of gradually blooding a few to see what they can bring we continue to play the safe, reliable, non spectacular incumbents and we saw what happened with that on the weekend. We've gone backwards, Hawks have got better.
Sometimes you have to roll the dice and I suspect Ross hasn't got it in him to do that and chances are we won't be good enough again.