Autopsy Round 17, 2023: St.Kilda v Melbourne *STEELE 150TH*

[gringo2011]

I’ve seen plenty of dudes pop shoulders the same way and I’ve seen plenty of dudes recover from shoulders being cooked.

He’s 23. Get the surgery now, rehab it properly. Everyone just relax.

I’m actually a bit concerned about our rehab/conditioning program. We’ve had a lot of reinjuries in those groups and now a couple doing the same thing. Hopefully that’s reviewed at seasons end (and before some keyboard warrior tells me I don’t know what I’m talking about, yeh, I don’t, but results are obvious to even the dumbest of us and our results from a rehab pov aren’t good)

And sometimes they just botch the surgery. I remember Naismith saying that he missed 2 years because he rehabbed his knee after surgery and the graft hadn't been joined properly so fell off. Cost him his career.

With shoulders they often shorten the ligaments so that they don't pop out, maybe they didn't shorten it enough. Looked a weird angle but not masses of force.

 

[phantom13]

And sometimes they just botch the surgery. I remember Naismith saying that he missed 2 years because he rehabbed his knee after surgery and the graft hadn't been joined properly so fell off. Cost him his career.

With shoulders they often shorten the ligaments so that they don't pop out, maybe they didn't shorten it enough. Looked a weird angle but not masses of force.

Yeh I mean I’m no doctor just noting we’ve seen plenty of innocuous looking injuries that doesn’t mean it’s systemic.

 

[phantom13]

Can't mess with shoulders, and as a key forward, having a wobbly shoulder is not good when contested marking is a big factor playing as a FF. Midfielders and flankers can carry a wonky shoulder, but key position players, not so easy. Hope it's not too bad.

Carey managed to be the best CHF in football with two cooked shoulders. Buddy has issues with his shoulders.

Obviously it’s not ideal but he’s 23 and it might have just been a freak incident. We can probably all chill.

 

[pluggeranddoc]

I thought he was pretty good apart from a couple of mistakes.

Mistakes aren’t the worst of it.
Underlying selfishness leading to unrealistic attempts drives me nuts!

 

[Saints43]

And the two handballs that I remember as being bad were left-handed ones. Not sure there would be too many 19yo key forwards who are proficient handballs on their non-dominant side at the pace of senior AFL level.

There's a bloke who has bought a reserved seat s few rows back from me who thinks he is hilarious (spoiler: he's not) who has now started yelling "Don't give it to dougal for gods sake!!!!" every time the ball is back of the centre.

I blame the carping on this forum for having to put up with this turnip for the next decade.

 

[DougalHoward]

Dougal was very good last night

 

[Mowman]

Dougal was very good last night

He was ok
2 of his kicks directly resulted in goals for Dees
And the mark he should’ve taken resulted in a goal too
That’s 3 from his mistakes

 

[pebblesofsand]

“Having made his debut in 2001, Riewoldt took the AFL by storm as a defender early in 2002. It was as a supremely fit centre-half forward that Riewoldt played most of his football however, before being shifted to a wing late in his career.” From an Age article around his retirement

It seems he definitely did play back early on in his career.

Anyway, I agree on the second point, Caminiti is great, he’s also 19 off no pre season and like 10 games into his career.

In my defence I was comparing outputs of both in their 1st season.

I'm pretty certain Riewoldt never played as THE key forward in his 1st season and I'm absolutely certain he didn't fill in as a ruckman as well.

Just checked - key forwards in Riewoldts first few games - Fraser Gehrig, Barry Hall and Aaron Hamill

 

[Saints43]

I can barely remember what I had for brekky but I always thought Roo won the rising star at CHB. I’m sure someone will set us both straight.

It was Kosi down back in the 24 for one season.
I think the prize was flights or cash from Ansett and the airline went broke before he could collect.

 

[Saints43]

Gresh probably struggling that much he couldn't help RoMa attract pick one. Gresh really is starting to look very C grade.

If a midfielder from another club had just kicked two goals against Melbourne nominated coming to St Kilda we'd throw a ****ing party.
We've got one: C Grader
Nothing improves a players rating more than not being one of ours for some people.

 

[phantom13]

In my defence I was comparing outputs of both in their 1st season.

I'm pretty certain Riewoldt never played as THE key forward in his 1st season and I'm absolutely certain he didn't fill in as a ruckman as well.

Just checked - key forwards in Riewoldts first few games - Fraser Gehrig, Barry Hall and Aaron Hamill

Either way I take the broader point.

Caminiti is doing just fine, looks like a player to me.

 

[bird_man]

That was me.

As I said, if we were offered two top ten picks and a mid, then I'd take it.

He's a two goal a game forward.

You need to stop making out that averaging 2 goals a game for a player his age isn't a good effort.

Tom Hawkins and Tom Lynch were averaging significantly less than that and Jack Riewoldt was about par after 65 games.

As is was key forwards the average usually starts low and continues to grow as their career goes on.

If we traded him we'd immediately have to turn our minds to finding a replacement key forward.

Anyway, no point arguing as their wouldn't be a list manager in the comp that would even think about it.

 

[gringo2011]

He was ok
2 of his kicks directly resulted in goals for Dees
And the mark he should’ve taken resulted in a goal too
That’s 3 from his mistakes

He had a mixed bag, did some great intercepts but as you said cost some goals. I thought they held Wilkie well which meant that Howard had to do more covering of players that weren't his.

Stocker made a few critical errors too but he's held in high regard so gets a let off. His disposal is all all or nothing IMO. He looks clean or terrible and nothing in-between. I wouldn't mind trying him in the midfield and pushing someone else back in his spot.

 

[Saints43]

That's modern footy though. A lot of sides try to get the ball in quick against Melbourne because given time to set up you can't even pick your way through. Lyon likes us to move the ball long and direct down the wings and even if it turns over you then try to defend territory. What you don't want to do it drop the ball on May's head over and over because you lack composure going inside 50. That said with King, Membrey, Hayes, Snags and even Cordy you have a bit more chance of creating a contest and not turning it over.

With all players in on third of the ground it's pretty hard to pick forwards out on a regular basis. While we're bemoaning May picking us off we're applauding Wilkie doing the same thing. It happens both ways.

 

[gringo2011]

You need to stop making out that averaging 2 goals a game for a player his age isn't a good effort.

Tom Hawkins and Tom Lynch were averaging significantly less than that and Jack Riewoldt was about par after 65 games.

As is was key forwards the average usually starts low and continues to grow as their career goes on.

If we traded him we'd immediately have to turn our minds to finding a replacement key forward.

Anyway, no point arguing as their wouldn't be a list manager in the comp that would even think about it.

It would be real McEvoy stuff. Pat yourself on the back for trading high then go out and spend more on Hickey and Longer to replace him and end up with nothing out of it.

 

[pluggeranddoc]

Poor skills is what i saw watching Hammer.

How did his poor skills compare to Ugle-Hagen’s first 10 games?

 

[Mowman]

He had a mixed bag, did some great intercepts but as you said cost some goals. I thought they held Wilkie well which meant that Howard had to do more covering of players that weren't his.

Stocker made a few critical errors too but he's held in high regard so gets a let off. His disposal is all all or nothing IMO. He looks clean or terrible and nothing in-between. I wouldn't mind trying him in the midfield and pushing someone else back in his spot.

Yeah Howard had 4 mistakes that were unforgivable

Stocker had a turn over that was shocking and directly resulted in goal, I think Stocker has just been going the last 3 weeks . Maybe starting to feel the effects of a long year

 

[gringo2011]

With all players in on third of the ground it's pretty hard to pick forwards out on a regular basis. While we're bemoaning May picking us off we're applauding Wilkie doing the same thing. It happens both ways.

Yeah, Melbourne not only play a spare back but they all peel back and run forward in numbers. It was how Richo used to like us to play. Everyone comes up to help defend then run and gun on the counter.

Wilkie seemed to have someone minding him all night, he couldn't get any space to work in.

 

[BucketsandBanger]

You don't trade the Ferrari for a couple of Hyundais because it gets a flat tyre. People are tripping.

I agree you don’t trade him but if you could get an A grade midfield out of it you would have to think about it. Say we could get Harley Reid or Humphrey, Hollands and a high first round pick from the Suns. Midfield is so much more important then a dominant key forward these days, look at Collingwood.

 

[phantom13]

He had a mixed bag, did some great intercepts but as you said cost some goals. I thought they held Wilkie well which meant that Howard had to do more covering of players that weren't his.

Stocker made a few critical errors too but he's held in high regard so gets a let off. His disposal is all all or nothing IMO. He looks clean or terrible and nothing in-between. I wouldn't mind trying him in the midfield and pushing someone else back in his spot.

Stocker brushed off Trac like a child at one point last night.

If Paton returns to form or we get Coff back I’d love Stocker to take a midfield rotation, looks a proper bull.

 

[Sully111]

He had a mixed bag, did some great intercepts but as you said cost some goals. I thought they held Wilkie well which meant that Howard had to do more covering of players that weren't his.

Stocker made a few critical errors too but he's held in high regard so gets a let off. His disposal is all all or nothing IMO. He looks clean or terrible and nothing in-between. I wouldn't mind trying him in the midfield and pushing someone else back in his spot.

Agree on Stocker

Had some clangers last week too.

 

[Dr Spaceman]

I don't think you will get too many astute observers disagree with you. Apart from looking like a porcelain giraffe trying to skate on ice, Max also appears incredibly injury prone and has already missed a lot of footy in his career thus far. The question has to be asked, can you build a team around a player like Max which was the sole reason for recruiting him. Seems like we function much better without him in the team.

You're only keen to see Max traded because of your unwavering faith in Sharman's ability to step up and kick bags week in, week out.

Cairnsman fantasising about them waxing in the forward 50

 

[Saints43]

In my defence I was comparing outputs of both in their 1st season.

I'm pretty certain Riewoldt never played as THE key forward in his 1st season and I'm absolutely certain he didn't fill in as a ruckman as well.

Just checked - key forwards in Riewoldts first few games - Fraser Gehrig, Barry Hall and Aaron Hamill

Correct. I remember seeing Roo low-level criticising Max for not being a bigger presence very early in his career. I thought the same thing... a bit easier when you start with Loewe, Gehrig and Hamill standing next to you.

 

[Bertha]

I don't get this idea of throwing everything away in frustration. We are unlikely to turn the second round pick into an upgrade. He's starting to get back to some form finally and look a bit settled in Lyon's system. I thought Billings, Jones and Gresham made us look better yesterday. A month ago we would have been happy to bin them all at the end of the year. If Gresham signs on for a reasonable wage we'd be crazy to not sign him.

Having depth will move us forward. Not a load of second rounders.

Not everything, just Gresh mate

I actually thought it was one of his better games last night, but interestingly RTB didn't mention him, but mentioned just about everyone else around him. If he can step it up again over the next few games and remind everyone of what he's capable of... and he resigns on reasonable money, then I agree, we'd be mad not to do that, but his best game was against Carlton and they need him more than we do, which pushes his price up, so who knows, might not get that opportunity.

 

[gringo2011]

I agree you don’t trade him but if you could get an A grade midfield out of it you would have to think about it. Say we could get Harley Reid or Humphrey, Hollands and a high first round pick from the Suns. Midfield is so much more important then a dominant key forward these days, look at Collingwood.

You don't though. You get a few lottery tickets. This draft isn't even a good draft for mids. We'd probably end up turning a generational tall forward into Newnes and Acres.

King is a marquee player and worth more than just output alone. In a close final those types are often the difference too. I agree everything starts in the midfield but more gun midfielders come up than generational KPFs.

You'd get Hollands for a second round pick if you went to do that trade. Humphrey is pretty settled up there, he has to want to be traded too.

I get Marshall being put on the table. That's an argument. He's amazing but you can use his capital on a midfielder and play a more rudimentary ruckman instead and probably not go backwards longer term. King would be one of the few untouchables on our list IMO.