Autopsy Round 20, 2021: St.Kilda v Carlton

[PetWussy]

From the team tonight, I have the following that I have little faith in:
1. Hunter
2. Long
3. Kent
4. Billings
5. Ross
6. Dunstan
7. Butler
8. Ratten + coaching staff

The real worry is this. Good coaches don't let beltings like this happen this many times in a season. We need to seriously review everyone's position at the end of the year.

Bit harsh on hunter he missed quite a few weeks and then copped some heavy knocks tonight...
Also thought Ross tried hard tonight saved a goal and worked his ass off defensively just too few and far between.
Jack Steele 8 tackles in the first quarter inspirational but at half time we still had 12 players who hadn't tackled opposed to blues 2. Game was over there we had no space.
Really feeling for Wilkiehes looked out of sorts lately used to be 1on1 king but doesn't seem to be getting anywhere near it he practically gave up last week against Kennedy and again tonight against McKay. Wonder if Carlisle will be important next year

 

[Max the great]

We didn't seem to have a plan to win the game. It was pathetic coaching tonight. Ratten was embarrassed.

Can't really see how Ratts takes us forward form here. This was basically a final, against a weak opposition, and we were destroyed. He isn't up to it, sorry.

He doesn't take us forward mate. Doesn't have it. Reality is if we keep him we don't win anything. Move him on and give this squad a chance

 

[Bill Mohr]

I was thinking before the game, please just win. Hate losing to Carlton!!

In hindsight and some mentioned before hand, big change to bring in 4 players with Clark and Higgins not playing for quite a while.

I'm of the view that we really need another kpd. I don't think it's necessarily just the goals a kpf kicks, but the marks up the ground and the amount of attention they require from a team defence that leaves other forwards open. Really hope we give Joyce or Clav a go to see if they can be it or not. Also it's fairly obvious we are playing too many forwards.

To lose so many clearances with Jack Silvagni rucking is an absolute embarrassment.

Carlton were able to completely choke our ball movement and transition and they were able transition well with run changing angles and hitting up players.

Really happy for Sharman tho, is a beanpole but looks promising. King was looking the goods early too.

Dont think Sharman has been in the weights room either. Not much on the arms at all.

 

[lewdogs]

He doesn't take us forward mate. Doesn't have it. Reality is if we keep him we don't win anything. Move him on and give this squad a chance

I agree. He just isn't up to the level, I like him but he can't motivate the players to perform at the standard required. Tonight was a debacle, how we lose a game by that much when we had the season on the line, it's just disgraceful. Not up to it unfortunately, that's ok but we need to look forward now.

 

[Plugger35]

I'm impressed with Connolly, he reminds me of Dal Santo but with a right foot, looks a set up player for us off half back and half forward.

Needs to nail his kicks, Dal hardly ever missed a kick, you need someone you can rely on, Connolly has missed a few kicks, needs to work on them.

 

[lewdogs]

How do you drop Coffield for that game? Wasn't even bad against the Eagles. Shocker of a move.

Selection was clueless for tonight.

 

[Browny2Carlisle]

Interesting that a kid playing mostly on instinct comes in and in half a game has 4 shots on goal for 2.1.
That's actually really impressive from sharman.

 

[George]

Who cares lol

 

[Ephemeral Hope]

Cracked open the captain Morgan’s. See you guys tomorrow for some renewed positively. Good night and dream of a successful draft

 

[PetWussy]

Also what's the go with Dunstan plodding around faking handballs and never choosing the first or correct target?
Annoying to see that once blues got a roll on we didn't look like generating any momentum and even Steele couldn't lift us.
Billings missing them last 2 shots just typifies him as a player we really shouldn't be paying overs to retain him he's no longer the Messiah.
Poor ball use, poor targets can't win a clearance and making Silvagni look like he's a pure ruckman. Losing Ryder, Howard and Clark just caps it all off

 

[DarkSaint]

My 2c for what it's worth.

Not going to mentions players, but everyone knows my thoughts on Billings/Ross/Kent so no surprises there.

What I want to absolutely flame is the coach and the coaching group.

4 changes and the wrong players went out was the first mistake.

All season we have played with 1 tall defender short. We have tried Joyce/Clav and each and every single one of those times they have not been soundly beaten and we looked a better defensive unit. Why Clav was dropped for Highmore I will never know.

The other thing is Brad Hill playing hbf. The guy is not a defender and has been a gun winger his whole life. His best work tonight was when he received the ball inside 50 in the pocket and squared up Billings. Play him on the bloody wing were he belongs. Connelly made a couple of errors tonight, but by enlarge his game wasn't any worse than Hills who should not be played in that position.

Thirdly we tried and tried and tried the same midfield set up when things weren't working. Only in the last quarter did we move Higgins into the centre. Change the bloody thing up will you. Throw in Byrnes/Long/Higgins heck even give Connelly a run through when our current lot bar Steele isn't working. Our 3rd best player looked a 1st gamer which is embarrassing.

I have 0 faith in Ratts and the coaching staff as I continue to see the same mistakes in match committee and a lack of game plan/Strategy throughout the game. Don't even get me started on forward structure. Not one player has any idea or even slighty on the same wave length with players that have the ball in hand.

the forward line hasn't functioned at all this year and last week King had to set a world record in contested marks to give us a chance of winning.

Wilkie is not a KPD and never should played as one. Ratts fascination with intercepting defenders is borderline crazy.

What I would like to see remainder of the season in the backing 2 talls in Clav and Joyce as CHB and FB since Howard is out.

Webster Clav Connolly
Sinclair Joyce Wilkie

Pick between Wilkie/Highmore/Coffield for the final spot. Have not been impressed with Wilkie at all this season.

On the Wings I would be playing Hill on one wing and McKenzie on the other with Byrnes rotating through as well.

The forward line would look like this

Butler Marshall Higgins
Sharman King Membrey


Drop Billings/Ross and say they are managed or injured to save face. Last 3 games I want to see something like this

Webster Clav Connolly
Sinclair Joyce Wilkie(experience)
Hill Steele McKenzie
Higgins Marshall Butler
Sharman King Membrey
Marshall Steele Jones

Coffield, Crouch, Clark, Long

Dropp Ross/Dunstan/Billing. Absolutely no point in gifting them anymore games.

 

[Premium]

Obviously was a poor set shot.. but we were down be 6 goals. Damage was already done. Blaming Billings for our pathetic lack of effort in the first 3 quarters is weird.

I feel Ratten thought he could coast through this game and get away with playing a guy who had been out for weeks with a broken jaw and a ruckman who we have seen is not worth his spot on the ground.
Anyway I hope it showed we need another key defender and more poise in the midfield / a mid who can get the ball on to advantage.
I was very disappointed in Billings today , he should be a leader on the field and help turn games around and has not shown much this year.
Ross the same when you have guys like Williamson , Honey , Kennedy , Fisher , Dow and even Newnes performing better than most of our rated players you have a effort problem or is it.

 

[George]

WoOoOhHhHhOoOo

 

[AirWinmar]

My 2c for what it's worth.

Not going to mentions players, but everyone knows my thoughts on Billings/Ross/Kent so no surprises there.

What I want to absolutely flame is the coach and the coaching group.

4 changes and the wrong players went out was the first mistake.

All season we have played with 1 tall defender short. We have tried Joyce/Clav and each and every single one of those times they have not been soundly beaten and we looked a better defensive unit. Why Clav was dropped for Highmore I will never know.

The other thing is Brad Hill playing hbf. The guy is not a defender and has been a gun winger his whole life. His best work tonight was when he received the ball inside 50 in the pocket and squared up Billings. Play him on the bloody wing were he belongs. Connelly made a couple of errors tonight, but by enlarge his game wasn't any worse than Hills who should not be played in that position.

Thirdly we tried and tried and tried the same midfield set up when things weren't working. Only in the last quarter did we move Higgins into the centre. Change the bloody thing up will you. Throw in Byrnes/Long/Higgins heck even give Connelly a run through when our current lot bar Steele isn't working. Our 3rd best player looked a 1st gamer which is embarrassing.

I have 0 faith in Ratts and the coaching staff as I continue to see the same mistakes in match committee and a lack of game plan/Strategy throughout the game. Don't even get me started on forward structure. Not one player has any idea or even slighty on the same wave length with players that have the ball in hand.

the forward line hasn't functioned at all this year and last week King had to set a world record in contested marks to give us a chance of winning.

Wilkie is not a KPD and never should played as one. Ratts fascination with intercepting defenders is borderline crazy.

What I would like to see remainder of the season in the backing 2 talls in Clav and Joyce as CHB and FB since Howard is out.

Webster Clav Connolly
Sinclair Joyce Wilkie

Pick between Wilkie/Highmore/Coffield for the final spot. Have not been impressed with Wilkie at all this season.

On the Wings I would be playing Hill on one wing and McKenzie on the other with Byrnes rotating through as well.

The forward line would look like this

Butler Marshall Higgins
Sharman King Membrey


Drop Billings/Ross and say they are managed or injured to save face. Last 3 games I want to see something like this

Webster Clav Connolly
Sinclair Joyce Wilkie(experience)
Hill Steele McKenzie
Higgins Marshall Butler
Sharman King Membrey
Marshall Steele Jones

Coffield, Crouch, Clark, Long

Dropp Ross/Dunstan/Billing. Absolutely no point in gifting them anymore games.

Ratts reply: we will be playing 3 small forwards, 2 rucks and 1 kpd. End discussion

 

[Max the great]

I feel Ratten thought he could coast through this game and get away with playing a guy who had been out for weeks with a broken jaw and a ruckman who we have seen is not worth his spot on the ground.
Anyway I hope it showed we need another key defender and more poise in the midfield / a mid who can get the ball on to advantage.
I was very disappointed in Billings today , he should be a leader on the field and help turn games around and has not shown much this year.
Ross the same when you have guys like Williamson , Honey , Kennedy , Fisher , Dow and even Newnes performing better than most of our rated players you have a effort problem or is it.

It's a broken jaw for Clark. No reason not to come back or no reason why it should effect his performance except for match fitness. I agree with the Hunter thing but. Unfortunately he is no where near up to the standard of AFL. It's like playing with 21. Picking 2 ruckman is fine if they both are capable. But that's not the case with Hunter.

 

[mad-saint-guy]

We really paid the price for having too many butchers and too many passengers in this game.

Passengers - Hunter, Butler, Clark, Long, Kent, Hill
Butchers - Dunstan, Crouch, Billings, Ross, Highmore, Howard


Interesting decision on whether or not we play the guys who we'd hope walk out the door as FA's. I don't want Dunstan, Ross or Billings at the club next year but I would like maximum compo. I agree with DarkSaint, I'd drop them and call it 'managed'

Out: Dunstan, Ross, Billings, Kent, Long, Hunter, Howard (inj)
In: Clavarino, Joyce, McKenzie, Ryder, Coffield, Bytel


B: Webster, Joyce, Wilkie
HB: Coffield, Clavarino, Hill
C: McKenzie, Steele, Clark
HF: Higgins, Marshall, Byrnes
F: Butler, King, Membrey

Foll: Ryder, Crouch, Jones
Int: Bytel, Connolly, Sharman, Highmore

Sub: Allison

 

[mad-saint-guy]

Ratts reply: we will be playing 3 small forwards, 2 rucks and 1 kpd. End discussion

*4 small forwards. Kent, Butler, Higgins, Long. Each far more valuable than a second key defender.

 

[Miha]

**** this club

 

[phantom13]

So my son was born the day before the port game so I’ll rite that off. West coast and Carlton since then…

not to sure how I’ll retain him as a Saint when his uncle and mother in law will be coming hard with dogs and pies gear and we’re putting THAT on the park.

 

[aussierulesrules]

Adelaide and the Pies are better lists. No coach can fix the list.

That is some true comedy gold right there, especially re Adelaide!

We’ve had the year from hell, with an injury list as long as our arm, a brutal draw, and the team in general being out of form or off their tucker for most of the year, yet we’re still comfortably ahead of both of them on the ladder, and that’s because we have a better list. At least compared to Adelaide, who’s list is putrid.

We have one guy over 28yo who makes a really meaningful contribution, in Ryder, while Collingwood have:

Pendlebury 33yo
Mayne 33yo
Howe 31yo
Roughead almost 31yo
Sidebottom 30yo and has really dropped off
Thomas 30yo
Cox 30yo
Elliott 29yo
Adams 28yo.
Mihocek 28yo

Dad’s army right there. They should be contending with that many old guys in their team, yet they’re 3rd bottom.

While Adelaide have:
Tex, who’s probably going to make the AA team, yet is 31yo
Sloane 31yo
Lynch 31yo
Talia 30yo
Smith 29yo
Seedsman 29yo

They are so far off contending it’s not funny.

If our list was as bad as you’re trying to convince us it is (after just two weeks ago telling us that we have a “scarily good midfield”, which you compared to the Beatles!), combined with our outrageous injury list from R1 onwards this year, our brutal draw, and how much we’ve just not shown up to play in so many games, we’d be probably last on the ladder. Not contending for finals.

So what you’re saying just doesn’t add up, in any way, shape, or form.

Do the maths.

A bottom 4 list + a brutal draw + smashed by injuries + putrid effort in numerous games = almost certain wooden spoon and a percentage in the 50’s or 60’s.

Not still contending for finals late in the season and beating 3 top 8 teams and pissing away wins against another 3.

 

[Munga]

Genius plan to lose to Carlton, it was an 8 point match to make the bottom 6. We're an excellent chance to make it now
Take the better draft picks and "easier" fixture, we better make it count next year!!
It will probably come down to our final match with Freo. Whoever loses that gets 13th spot.

 

[andy_cav]

My brother speaks regularly with a former St Kilda player (who retired within the last few years), who earlier this year said that he thinks the biggest problem at St Kilda is that the kids who are coming through (as a collective) are overrated, and aren't driving the improvement. While I was initially taken aback, I'm starting to think he may be right.

King is clearly a special prospect, and I'm a big fan of Paton. The latter is a neat kick and unlike many of our other highly touted youngsters, has a strong defensive side to his game.

I have been massive supporters of both Clark and Coffield, but both are poor defensively. Coffield's inconsistent form has been obvious throughout the year. Clark has a sensational highlights reel, but doesn't work both ways- far too many times tonight (and in many other games this year), his opponent is allowed to run loose and ends up impacting the play. We already have midfielders like Zak Jones

3

Zak Jones

Age

29

Ht

182cm

Wt

84kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

17.8

4star

K

10.0

4star

HB

7.8

5star

M

3.4

3star

T

3.0

5star

CL

1.7

4star

D

19.1

4star

K

10.6

4star

HB

8.6

4star

M

3.4

3star

T

3.1

4star

CL

4.9

5star

D

7.0

2star

K

2.8

1star

HB

4.2

4star

M

1.0

1star

T

1.6

4star

CL

1.0

3star

and Brad Crouch

5

Brad Crouch

Age

30

Ht

186cm

Wt

86kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

26.1

5star

K

12.1

4star

HB

14.0

5star

M

2.7

3star

T

5.5

5star

CL

5.0

5star

D

20.3

5star

K

11.1

4star

HB

9.1

5star

M

1.5

2star

T

3.9

5star

CL

4.6

5star

D

21.6

5star

K

10.0

4star

HB

11.6

5star

M

3.4

4star

T

4.2

5star

CL

2.6

5star

who don't have a strong defensive side. Teams can afford to carry a guy who just chases the ball (Nat Fyfe acknowledged as much in his last Brownlow acceptance speech), but if you put Jones, Crouch and Clark in the same midfield, you end up with results like tonight. Don't forget that we have Gresham to come back as well, who also is a ball hunter with a weaker defensive game. I personally would take Jones out of those 4 as the less accountable starting mid, given his speed, aggression and impact.

If we are being truly honest with ourselves, guys like Byrnes, Connolly and Bytel are more likely to end up as Jack Newnes

32

Jack Newnes

Age

31

Ht

185cm

Wt

86kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

19.0

5star

K

11.3

4star

HB

7.7

5star

M

5.0

5star

T

3.0

5star

CL

1.3

3star

D

12.0

3star

K

9.0

4star

HB

3.0

2star

M

2.0

2star

T

1.0

2star

CL

0.0

1star

D

13.4

4star

K

7.6

3star

HB

5.8

4star

M

3.2

4star

T

1.8

4star

CL

0.4

3star

/Seb Ross-level players than proper A graders. Good, average footballers that end up as the 17th-22nd best players in good teams. The first two in particular have shown glimpses this year, no doubt, but they were taken late in the draft for a reason. I'm not saying they can't become elite, but they also aren't on the same level as the Sam Walshes, Luke Jacksons, Caleb Serongs or indeed Max Kings of the competition.

I think the dream drafting/recruiting result over the next two years would be a gun mid in this year's draft and to poach/recruit a developing KPD, and then pour all of Hannebery's wasted salary into Ben King

34

Ben King

Age

24

Ht

202cm

Wt

98kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

7.2

2star

K

5.0

2star

HB

2.2

2star

M

3.5

4star

T

0.5

3star

G

1.3

5star

D

7.5

2star

K

5.6

2star

HB

1.9

1star

M

3.6

4star

T

0.3

1star

G

1.5

5star

D

6.8

2star

K

4.4

2star

HB

2.4

3star

M

3.2

4star

T

0.2

3star

G

1.0

4star

at the end of 2022. None of Billings, Dunstan or Ross will get us first round draft picks, but one or a combination of their picks could be put towards the developing KPD, while clearly further salary cap space.

 

[George]

So my son was born the day before the port game so I’ll rite that off. West coast and Carlton since then…

not to sure how I’ll retain him as a Saint when his uncle and mother in law will be coming hard with dogs and pies gear and we’re putting THAT on the park.

Were you or they born chinless?

 

[aussierulesrules]

I think part of the issue tonight was we changed the structure of the past few weeks and played way too many forwards while being a defender short. Which was then only compounded by Howard going off - the worst possible player to lose.

Whoever thought we needed to play all of Butler, Higgins, Kent and Long as forward got it wrong. Our forward and back balance had been very good the past 6 weeks so there was no need to change it.

Yeah once I saw the team we’d named I figured we were planning on moving Long back, so it was a really bizarre selection. Just made little sense.

And we then compounded it by making Sharman the sub.

So once he came on we had:

King
Hunter/Marshall
Membrey
Sharman
Higgins
Butler
Long
Kent

and then Billings as well, who presumably spent some time forward.

Just way out of whack.

 

[George]

I'm in another dimension