Autopsy Round 20, 2022: St.Kilda v Hawthorn

[SaintsSeptember]

Also been a long time / if ever that we’ve had three debutants play so many games in their first year.

ummmm 2019.
Parker, Wilkie and Hind combined for 50. So not so long.
But they more reflected the mature age picks we targeted at the time.

Somehow its more exciting with 18YO's.

 

[Tommy Wigs]

The fact that we're debating which one will be our Dusty is awesome. Think it's more Windy, Owens more a much tougher Bont NWM a combination of Burgoyne Winmar. Not bad for 1 draft

Yep, I’m on Windy too. Can’t wait to see where Owens lands as a player though and so nice to see some skill and poise on the list with Nas.

 

[Winmar2Lockett]

It’s those high picks that tend to get the star players. While we topped up Freo we’re drafting Brayshaw and Serong types. No coincidence that King who is our potential superstar was drafted high. We topped up to be short term competitive …..but will we build a list who’s ceiling is set low because we tried to do it quickly but get beaten by ones who did it the slow way.

Just to be accurate, we have traded out one high pick since 2016. A pick that was split & brought Hill, Howard & Ryder into the club. Howard is a crucial, long term piece that we desperately needed to lock in. Freo then traded that pick to Melb to upgrade to the pick they took Serong with.

In comparison, Freo traded out pick 6 in 2018 (that they got for Neale) for Jesse Hogan... they could have taken Bing with that pick.

They got unbelievably lucky thanks to a desperate Gold Coast throwing pick 2 to them for Lachie Weller... pick 2 that became Andrew Brayshaw.

 

[Remboy]

Yep, I’m on Windy too. Can’t wait to see where Owens lands as a player though and so nice to see some skill and poise on the list with Nas.

I think Windy is already top shelf, with Owens the sky's the limit. An inside/outside mid who tackles anything in sight and can go forward and take contested marks. What won't he be able to do?

 

[PostmanBish]

Not usually a part of his game. He’s a gun but Wilkie is just on another level right now. One of the all time great finds.

The Hawthorn forwards were the perfect size for our smaller defenders but I still think we’re extremely vulnerable to the high bomb in because we’re so undersized.

Wilkie is so utterly accountable (and has outstanding defensive technique to go with it) that he basically forces his opponent to play for frees, because it's often the only way they can break his lock on them.

I'd say if he plays out his career with us, he'll be a lock for our team of the 2020s, at the very least.

 

[Dard Ball Get]

Wilkie is so utterly accountable

Pardon the pun!

 

[PostmanBish]

Pardon the pun!

Yeah ... I know ... should have called it ... but it's an absolute fact that he's one defender we can never accuse of "cooking the books". He's been forensically audited by some of the best players in the game, and they're hard pressed to get on the ledger ...

CHUCKLE

 

[bergholt]

Coaches Votes after this one

45+: Sinclair (45 from 9 games voted in)
40+: Steele (42 from 7)
35+:
30+:
25+: Crouch (25 from 5)
20+: Hill (24 from 3), King (24 from 4), Gresham (20 from 6), Wilkie (20 from 4)
15+: Ryder (16 from 2)
10+: Marshall (14 from 2), Battle (11 from 2)
5+: Butler (7 from 2), Membrey (7 from 2), Ross (7 from 2), Hayes (5 from 1)
1+: Howard (2 from 1), Jones (2 from 1), Webster (2 from 1), Windhager (2 from 1)
0: Wood (0 from 17), Paton (0 from 17), Long (0 from 16), Wanganeen-Milera (0 from 15), Howard (0 from 14), McKenzie (0 from 12), Byrnes (0 from 11)

 

[Dr Spaceman]

Yeah ... I know ... should have called it ... but it's an absolute fact that he's one defender we can never accuse of "cooking the books". He's been forensically audited by some of the best players in the game, and they're hard pressed to get on the ledger ...

These gags are quite taxing.

 

[bergholt]

These gags are quite taxing.

But Wilkie's still an asset

 

[UnfinishedBusiness]

But Wilkie's still an asset

What’s his appreciation rate this year? Please try and remain balanced.


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[Ads734]

I think Windy is already top shelf, with Owens the sky's the limit. An inside/outside mid who tackles anything in sight and can go forward and take contested marks. What won't he be able to do?

Owens still reminds me so much of a young Elliot Yeo just the tenacity and marking ability. Just a terror to play against.

 

[Ads734]

Sincs and Wilkie could be 1and2 in our BNF this year Marshall top 10

Yep and between the three of them just a lazy
138
83
82

Games played so far

 

[Diehard Saint]

ummmm 2019.
Parker, Wilkie and Hind combined for 50. So not so long.
But they more reflected the mature age picks we targeted at the time.

Somehow its more exciting with 18YO's.

You’re right. I meant first year draftees.

 

[gringo2011]

Just to be accurate, we have traded out one high pick since 2016. A pick that was split & brought Hill, Howard & Ryder into the club. Howard is a crucial, long term piece that we desperately needed to lock in. Freo then traded that pick to Melb to upgrade to the pick they took Serong with.

In comparison, Freo traded out pick 6 in 2018 (that they got for Neale) for Jesse Hogan... they could have taken Bing with that pick.

They got unbelievably lucky thanks to a desperate Gold Coast throwing pick 2 to them for Lachie Weller... pick 2 that became Andrew Brayshaw.

Traded out for Snags too. Sold one to Hawks to get one of Coff and Clark as well. Going back to Pelican days we swapped heaps for guys like Lee, Hickey, Saad etc.

 

[Winmar2Lockett]

Traded out for Snags too. Sold one to Hawks to get one of Coff and Clark as well. Going back to Pelican days we swapped heaps for guys like Lee, Hickey, Saad etc.

May as well go back to Fergus Watts then.

Snags was a downgraded pick.

Coff was a deferred 1st rounder if you like.

Both trades brought in young players… not top ups for short term gains.


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[stfan]

May as well go back to Fergus Watts then.

Speaking of Fergus Watts.

I jumped on a park and ride bus with my wife from Cambridge UK, the other week and the lady behind me pipes up with you must be from Melbourne. Reason being was that I had my St Kilda Members Cap on.

Turns out she is the sister of Jim Watts, our former CEO, and aunt of Fergus Watts.

The young guy in front of me then joins in with the St Kilda discussion and turns our he is a close mate of Ben Long (who according to him was not that complimentary about our gameplan).

There was only about a dozen people on the bus and so it was a big coincidence with that my wife and I that we had 4 StKilda people all sitting adjacent to one another on a bus in the UK.

My wife and I had been out for the day with a UK couple and they thought it quite funny too

 

[gringo2011]

May as well go back to Fergus Watts then.

Snags was a downgraded pick.

Coff was a deferred 1st rounder if you like.

Both trades brought in young players… not top ups for short term gains.


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As I said at the time we sold our pick to the Hawks, that we should have had a player in that draft and they would have had an extra year of development. They obviously thought our list was a lot more advanced than it was. They guys in that era that we blew would have been our senior core now. Membrey and Mason Wood came from that draft. It's not ancient history. Grundy, Vlastuin, Macrae, Stringer, Dean Kent, Whitfield etc all in that draft.

Fergus Watts was dumb but it would have nothing to do with the list we have now.

Snags was a downgrade that we use as an excuse to blame our unlikely pick on.

 

[lewdogs]

As I said at the time we sold our pick to the Hawks, that we should have had a player in that draft and they would have had an extra year of development. They obviously thought our list was a lot more advanced than it was. They guys in that era that we blew would have been our senior core now. Membrey and Mason Wood came from that draft. It's not ancient history. Grundy, Vlastuin, Macrae, Stringer, Dean Kent, Whitfield etc all in that draft.

Fergus Watts was dumb but it would have nothing to do with the list we have now.

Snags was a downgrade that we use as an excuse to blame our unlikely pick on.

That Hawks swap was one of the best ever. We got Long, Battle and Clark for pick 10. We took them to the cleaners, probably the best trade we've ever done.

 

[Remboy]

Speaking of Fergus Watts.

I jumped on a park and ride bus with my wife from Cambridge UK, the other week and the lady behind me pipes up with you must be from Melbourne. Reason being was that I had my St Kilda Members Cap on.

Turns out she is the sister of Jim Watts, our former CEO, and aunt of Fergus Watts.

The young guy in front of me then joins in with the St Kilda discussion and turns our he is a close mate of Ben Long (who according to him was not that complimentary about our gameplan).

There was only about a dozen people on the bus and so it was a big coincidence with my wife and I that we had 4 StKilda people all sitting adjacent to one another on a bus in the UK.

My wife and I had been out for the day with a UK couple and they thought it quite funny too

On my first trip to Europe there was a guy who taught David Armitage at school and was still in touch with him. Had lots of Saints conversations travelling around Europe.

 

[The Punter]

Ah, the 2012 draft. Love this whenever it comes up.

Now, obviously, the original sin was letting Goddard go. Should never have happened.

But between what would have been our first pick and would have been our second, the only guys who are "geez, what if we had them" would have been Grundy and perhaps Kamdyn McIntosh

33

Kamdyn Mcintosh

Age

30

Ht

191cm

Wt

92kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

14.8

4star

K

9.9

4star

HB

4.9

4star

M

3.7

4star

T

2.6

4star

CL

0.8

3star

D

13.8

3star

K

8.4

3star

HB

5.4

3star

M

2.8

3star

T

2.2

3star

CL

1.0

3star

D

18.6

5star

K

12.6

5star

HB

6.0

4star

M

5.8

5star

T

2.4

4star

CL

1.4

4star

. And I would suggest Grundy would have been sniffing a trade back to SA if we had drafted him. Perhaps that leads to another youngster but who knows. Most of the really good players in that draft were either in the first 11 picks or were father-sons.

Wood was picked one pick after Brodie Murdoch

Brodie Murdoch

Age

30

Ht

188cm

Wt

78kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

8.0

2star

K

5.2

2star

HB

2.8

2star

M

3.7

4star

T

1.4

3star

G

0.4

3star

No current season stats available

D

9.0

3star

K

5.6

3star

HB

3.4

3star

M

3.0

3star

T

2.6

4star

G

0.2

3star

and we got Membrey for free two years later anyway.

TL;DR - we didn't do great, but great wasn't really available.

 

[gringo2011]

That Hawks swap was one of the best ever. We got Long, Battle and Clark for pick 10. We took them to the cleaners, probably the best trade we've ever done.

Which we would still have had picks for if we hadn't traded out of that draft in the first place. Realistically selling off picks for players can't be measured easily because you don't know who we would have taken or others would have.

One of Clark or Coff would have been there with our pick regardless. A lot of their alumni from the 2017 draft are already established stars. It's getting to the point that they either step up or get written off as GOPs. Injury has hampered both but they have been disappointing for their draft position no matter how much we hope they come on.

Battle is probably the pick of all that talent so far and he's taken until now to come on. Long may still be delisted IMO. He's a good depth player but he's been a battler.

Apparently we were keen on Florent and Simpkin at that pick that went to the Hawks. Simpkin would have been a great addition to the mids and Florent plays as a kind of high half forward wing type at Sydney but was a mid at junior level and looks like the type who could have helped.

 

[gringo2011]

Ah, the 2012 draft. Love this whenever it comes up.

Now, obviously, the original sin was letting Goddard go. Should never have happened.

But between what would have been our first pick and would have been our second, the only guys who are "geez, what if we had them" would have been Grundy and perhaps Kamdyn McIntosh. And I would suggest Grundy would have been sniffing a trade back to SA if we had drafted him. Perhaps that leads to another youngster but who knows. Most of the really good players in that draft were either in the first 11 picks or were father-sons.

Wood was picked one pick after Brodie Murdoch and we got Membrey for free two years later anyway.

TL;DR - we didn't do great, but great wasn't really available.

You are always going to get a few wrong but to have failed to draft any stars in about 20 years is damning. I'd say Steven and Sinclair the only two A+ graders that we drafted after BJ. Lyon didn't play kids which may have contributed but drafting was a major issue for a long time. Recent drafting looks better but we are still waiting for potential rather than established stars. Sinclair and possibly Marshall if he can continue last week's form excepted.

 

[Joffaboy]

Traded out for Snags too. Sold one to Hawks to get one of Coff and Clark as well. Going back to Pelican days we swapped heaps for guys like Lee, Hickey, Saad etc.

Got Coff Battle and Long for the Hawks pick. Wasn't traded out but traded up.

Coff was just coming on when knee, Battle has found his place and while we could have had Bolton, Long is no slouch.
Surely you aren't criticising that move as well now.

 

[The Punter]

You are always going to get a few wrong but to have failed to draft any stars in about 20 years is damning. I'd say Steven and Sinclair the only two A+ graders that we drafted after BJ. Lyon didn't play kids which may have contributed but drafting was a major issue for a long time. Recent drafting looks better but we are still waiting for potential rather than established stars. Sinclair and possibly Marshall if he can continue last week's form excepted.

Agreed. I'd say the Ryan Gamble pick in 2011 was the worst of the bunch because it alienated Tom Lynch (who barely played) and we were searching for a hit up half forward for years. Having said that, perhaps we don't get Membrey if Lynch is around in 2015.

To this stage Clark, Coffield and Gresham have all been some level of unlucky. Lots of impact and structural injuries there rather than soft tissue. Same with McCartin and Hugh Goddard to a certain extent. Billings is the one who really hurts because he has become a slightly above-average GOP, which is tough because of who was drafted after him (Bontempelli and Patrick Cripps were both taken before we took Dunstan at pick 18).

Overall it's been a confluence of events. To be honest, we're probably one absolutely nailed top-10 draft pick away from really competing. Problem is we haven't done that in 20 years, although Max King could be that. Problem is King is not a midfielder.