Preview Round 22, 2023: St.Kilda v Richmond - Marvel Stadium, Sunday 13th August, 3:20PM AEST *MADDIE'S MATCH*

[SaintersUnite]

I think you’re all overreacting a bit. Most of us were expecting a 10-14 finish to the season at the start of the year and with the injury list we started with we’ve completely blown that expectation out of the water.

It’s been quite a successful season considering it’s the first year under a new coach, heaps of young talent have had games put into them (Hammer, Pou, Windhager, Owens, NWM) and we still have the fate of finals in our hands with three games to go.

I know most would say it hasn’t been as explorative as Ross made it out to be, but to be playing this many young and different players is definitely explorative for RTBs standards. He’ll have learnt plenty about this list off this season and I wouldn’t be surprised to see 3 or 4 senior players moved on at the trade period.


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[George]

Not sure why anyone was expecting us to slide down the ladder this year. We improved the list, we apparently improved the football department, we have an easier fixture in an easier competition. We won 11 games last year and only needed to win 1-2 more this year to make finals.

I've noticed we have a tendency as supporters to give this club outs. It's always next year with this club. Next year is when we'll be ready, then it rolls around, we shit the bed, we find excuses and then roll out the same next year rhetoric. I reckon the excuses have worn thin.

 

[BrutThough]

Not sure why anyone was expecting us to slide down the ladder this year. We improved the list, we apparently improved the football department, we have an easier fixture in an easier competition. We won 11 games last year and only needed to win 1-2 more this year to make finals.

I've noticed we have a tendency as supporters to give this club outs. It's always next year with this club. Next year is when we'll be ready, then it rolls around, we s**t the bed, we find excuses and then roll out the same next year rhetoric. I reckon the excuses have worn thin.

Also, why does it matter what the pre season predictions were? At the mid point of the season, we were well entrenched in the top 8. To excuse missing the finals again from a favourable position because someone predicted us to have a bad season before a ball was even bounced just lets everyone off easy.

There have been a lot of grandstanding about these amazing standards and all these higher expectations but when it comes to us giving away finals for a 2nd year it a row, those standards/expectations just disappear and the excuses start to come out.

 

[George]

Also, why does it matter what the pre season predictions were? At the mid point of the season, we were well entrenched in the top 8. To excuse missing the finals again from a favourable position because someone predicted us to have a bad season before a ball was even bounced just lets everyone off easy.

There have been a lot of grandstanding about these amazing standards and all these higher expectations but when it comes to us giving away finals for a 2nd year it a row, those standards/expectations just disappear and the excuses start to come out.

"We had lots of injuries and were playing kids" - yes and we were winning games in that period, the healthier the list got the worse we played, actually. Moot point.

"The kids are tiring" - this one made me laugh the most we then play Melbourne with no bench and take it to them all day.

Then it's onto the list having maxed out. Rubbish. We shouldn't have lost games against Carlton Hawthorn or Richmond. Now we may not have assumed to win all those, but 1? 2?

It's okay though because people will come to the realisation eventually, even those vehemently in defence of the coaching.

 

[BrutThough]

"We had lots of injuries and were playing kids" - yes and we were winning games in that period, the healthier the list got the worse we played, actually. Moot point.

"The kids are tiring" - this one made me laugh the most we then play Melbourne with no bench and take it to them all day.

Then it's onto the list having maxed out. Rubbish. We shouldn't have lost games against Carlton Hawthorn or Richmond. Now we may not have assumed to win all those, but 1? 2?

It's okay though because people will come to the realisation eventually, even those vehemently in defence of the coaching.

Blaming the list for everything is such a cop out. There is no denying it needs improvement but it was good enough to have winning in the first half of the season so it shouldn't be solely to blame for our 2nd half of the season.

 

[gringo2011]

Not sure why anyone was expecting us to slide down the ladder this year. We improved the list, we apparently improved the football department, we have an easier fixture in an easier competition. We won 11 games last year and only needed to win 1-2 more this year to make finals.

I've noticed we have a tendency as supporters to give this club outs. It's always next year with this club. Next year is when we'll be ready, then it rolls around, we s**t the bed, we find excuses and then roll out the same next year rhetoric. I reckon the excuses have worn thin.

How did we improve the list? Not sure we improved for the short term. We drafted well but in the last decade most of our kids have taken 5 years to work out that they were shit.

The easier fixture is not right either with most lists competitive apart from 2 absolute shit sides.

We have had players missing games or playing injured: Steele, Gresham, King, Snags, Coffield, Jones, Clark, Ross, Hill, Billings, Howard, Higgins, Owens, Membrey, McKenzie, Hayes all missed games or the bulk of the season.....including our entire forward line part from Butler from our best side last year in one game. Our thin midfield was decimated as well.

Last year fell over with injury to Gresham and Steele. 2021 fell apart with injury as well. Holding up ladder position improvement as the only measure is like comparing pre covid financial reports and trying to compare them to the lock down years. They aren't the same thing with so many moving parts.


I remember before round one with King and Membrey missing people were wondering how we could kick a score that would win a game. To me we have been disappointing late in the year because we look tired and limited but we are probably disappointing because we set high expectations early.

I certainly don't let the club off anything but you'd want to see what Lyon can do with a proper preseason and a fit list before writing off the experiment.


All you can measure is improvement. Not sure it's particularly better but we are making an investment in the future by putting bulk games into youth. The positives to me are Owens, Windhager, Phillipou, Byrnes, Caminiti, Sharman etc holding up and getting games while remaining competitive.

We are playing a side that is younger than sides like Richmond are putting up. We had a list younger than WCE who got smashed carrying a heap of premiership stars one week. We are not pretty to watch, we don't get the pulse racing but we have sort of done okay considering. Our list profile looks bottom 4 most weeks but we are remaining in the top 8. That's some kind of achievement in itself.

 

[phantom13]

Not sure why anyone was expecting us to slide down the ladder this year. We improved the list, we apparently improved the football department, we have an easier fixture in an easier competition. We won 11 games last year and only needed to win 1-2 more this year to make finals.

I've noticed we have a tendency as supporters to give this club outs. It's always next year with this club. Next year is when we'll be ready, then it rolls around, we s**t the bed, we find excuses and then roll out the same next year rhetoric. I reckon the excuses have worn thin.

I probably excpected a slide back slide based on Ross trying shit and putting players on trial for a bit of a list refresh.

Given i dont think ive seen that i agree we should have improved.

 

[gringo2011]

Blaming the list for everything is such a cop out. There is no denying it needs improvement but it was good enough to have winning in the first half of the season so it shouldn't be solely to blame for our 2nd half of the season.

We jumped heaps of sides winding into their season because we came in super fit and no-one was expected anything from us. Young players do start to get tired and plenty of the older guys have to work harder and sacrifice their games to carry youth. The ladder tends to sort the wheat from the chaff as it goes along. Carlton's list looked primed for a challenge and they are probably where they should be. Sides like Adelaide and St Kilda have started to get some wobbles as the kids start to look stuffed and their place in the 8 starts to get challenged.

Geelong have had less injuries than us and are potentially going to finish below us. With your very narrow focus I'd be interested to see how you process that.

 

[BucketsandBanger]

Not sure why anyone was expecting us to slide down the ladder this year. We improved the list, we apparently improved the football department, we have an easier fixture in an easier competition. We won 11 games last year and only needed to win 1-2 more this year to make finals.

I've noticed we have a tendency as supporters to give this club outs. It's always next year with this club. Next year is when we'll be ready, then it rolls around, we s**t the bed, we find excuses and then roll out the same next year rhetoric. I reckon the excuses have worn thin.

We haven't slid down the ladder, we are on 11 wins with 2 games left..... It hasn't been an easier competition. Its far more even this year which means its harder actually. Got no idea if the Lyon 2.0 experiment will work out but completely writing it off after what we have done this season is stupid. Just because those first 6 games were at the start of the year doesn't mean they don't count. We are currently in the 8 for a reason.

 

[Dr Spaceman]

It’s all a bit meaningless anyway.

When Ross was appointed there were some who approved and some who didn’t. That latter group included some who supported the retention of Ratts and some who agreed with his removal but preferred a new young coach be appointed.

And now that we are down to the last 3 games I doubt many, if any, have switched camps.

The pro Ross group (which includes me) will point to improved training standards, improvement in certain players and the blooding of youth. It will suggest over performing in the face of an horrific injury list.

The second group will point to a likely failure to make the finals yet again despite a soft draw and a strong start.

No one from Group ‘A’ will convince anyone from Group ‘B’ to change their opinion, and vice versa.

So we’ve had 20 games over 5 months and nothing’s really changed.

We’re gonna need a greater sample size, so buckle in.

 

[The Punter]

We haven't slid down the ladder, we are on 11 wins with 2 games left..... It hasn't been an easier competition. Its far more even this year which means its harder actually. Got no idea if the Lyon 2.0 experiment will work out but completely writing it off after what we have done this season is stupid. Just because those first 6 games were at the start of the year doesn't mean they don't count. We are currently in the 8 for a reason.

I think many of us, me included, are sick of the same lifting and crushing of expectations over the course of a season. Everything you have said is rational analysis, it doesn't make last Sunday any easier when one successful line in the sand performance is all we needed.

 

[BrutThough]

We jumped heaps of sides winding into their season because we came in super fit and no-one was expected anything from us. Young players do start to get tired and plenty of the older guys have to work harder and sacrifice their games to carry youth. The ladder tends to sort the wheat from the chaff as it goes along. Carlton's list looked primed for a challenge and they are probably where they should be. Sides like Adelaide and St Kilda have started to get some wobbles as the kids start to look stuffed and their place in the 8 starts to get challenged.

Geelong have had less injuries than us and are potentially going to finish below us. With your very narrow focus I'd be interested to see how you process that.

I don't have a narrow focus. I can see blame for what is about to become a failed season in our players, our coaches, our list strategy, just our overall demeanour. It's not one area that is solely to blame for throwing away our chance at finals.

But again with excuses. Young players do get tired but most of our young players are still performing to a good standard each week so rolling that out as a way to rationalise us throwing away a finals spot doesn't make a lot of sense. NWM has been one of our most consistent the 2nd half of the year. Windy has performed his best in the last 6 weeks. Owens has been very consistent. Phillipou and Caminiti had low contributions in our winning stretch so their low contribution now hasn't changed much. Our failure is off the back of our mid aged to older players dropping off, which isn't good enough at this point of their careers, and from some bad strategies (or lack of strategy in some games) costing us wins.

 

[beside the seaside]

We are seventh and we play two sides below us in the next fortnight. We really should make the finals, the problem is we've all been burned so many times that we just expect to fall out.

Really hope we can find a way this year, it would be a great step forward for the group and would show potential targets we are moving in the right direction.

 

[George]

We haven't slid down the ladder, we are on 11 wins with 2 games left..... It hasn't been an easier competition. Its far more even this year which means its harder actually. Got no idea if the Lyon 2.0 experiment will work out but completely writing it off after what we have done this season is stupid. Just because those first 6 games were at the start of the year doesn't mean they don't count. We are currently in the 8 for a reason.

I didn't say we had, I said I dunno how people could've expected that heading into the season

 

[gringo2011]

I don't have a narrow focus. I can see blame for what is about to become a failed season in our players, our coaches, our list strategy, just our overall demeanour. It's not one area that is solely to blame for throwing away our chance at finals.

But again with excuses. Young players do get tired but most of our young players are still performing to a good standard each week so rolling that out as a way to rationalise us throwing away a finals spot doesn't make a lot of sense. NWM has been one of our most consistent the 2nd half of the year. Windy has performed his best in the last 6 weeks. Owens has been very consistent. Phillipou and Caminiti had low contributions in our winning stretch so their low contribution now hasn't changed much. Our failure is off the back of our mid aged to older players dropping off, which isn't good enough at this point of their careers, and from some bad strategies (or lack of strategy in some games) costing us wins.

I guess it's how you view success. To me a fail would have been having full older list to choose from playing the season out and making the bottom of the 8 with very little room for improvement. There are issues with our list quality and we have bulked games into the youth which will have a huge benefit for the next decade....not a one year sugar hit. We probably would have done the same thing and topped up a limited list with more GOPs in the off season.

Kids get to soar when older players are around them. Put them in a side with no-one to protect them or do heavy lifting and you are North Melbourne. Who has dropped away apart from Gresham? Hill is playing better, Steele has been smashed, Crouch is in career best form, Wood is flying. To me the older guys have been good part from injury and Gresham losing all form. Howard is the other that hasn't been great I guess. To me they are just a bit limited which we already knew. We lack star class. It looks like if we are getting that class it's coming for the guys we pumped games into.

 

[George]

How did we improve the list? Not sure we improved for the short term. We drafted well but in the last decade most of our kids have taken 5 years to work out that they were s**t.

The easier fixture is not right either with most lists competitive apart from 2 absolute s**t sides.

We have had players missing games or playing injured: Steele, Gresham, King, Snags, Coffield, Jones, Clark, Ross, Hill, Billings, Howard, Higgins, Owens, Membrey, McKenzie, Hayes all missed games or the bulk of the season.....including our entire forward line part from Butler from our best side last year in one game. Our thin midfield was decimated as well.

Last year fell over with injury to Gresham and Steele. 2021 fell apart with injury as well. Holding up ladder position improvement as the only measure is like comparing pre covid financial reports and trying to compare them to the lock down years. They aren't the same thing with so many moving parts.


I remember before round one with King and Membrey missing people were wondering how we could kick a score that would win a game. To me we have been disappointing late in the year because we look tired and limited but we are probably disappointing because we set high expectations early.

I certainly don't let the club off anything but you'd want to see what Lyon can do with a proper preseason and a fit list before writing off the experiment.


All you can measure is improvement. Not sure it's particularly better but we are making an investment in the future by putting bulk games into youth. The positives to me are Owens, Windhager, Phillipou, Byrnes, Caminiti, Sharman etc holding up and getting games while remaining competitive.

We are playing a side that is younger than sides like Richmond are putting up. We had a list younger than WCE who got smashed carrying a heap of premiership stars one week. We are not pretty to watch, we don't get the pulse racing but we have sort of done okay considering. Our list profile looks bottom 4 most weeks but we are remaining in the top 8. That's some kind of achievement in itself.

Caminiti Pou and Owens playing regularly isn't an upgrade to you over what we had?

If two shit sides play each other and it's close it doesn't mean both sides are good. There's about 15 very average sides, us being one of them, who have a max output of finding themselves in the bottom half of the eight. Says a lot about the quality of the comp. However given the 8-3 start, we were well ahead of any of them in terms of finding a place in the eight. The comp is shit if we look bottom four but are routinely in 6th.

We don't look tired and limited at all. We pumped Hawthorn last week, stayed in games against top four sides despite injury, and had to mount comebacks to win a few. I don't know where the tired and limited talk has come from, just sounds like an excuse.

And finally, young =/= bad. Yes the list got younger but there's far more talent on it than last year.

 

[BrutThough]

I guess it's how you view success. To me a fail would have been having full older list to choose from playing the season out and making the bottom of the 8 with very little room for improvement. There are issues with our list quality and we have bulked games into the youth which will have a huge benefit for the next decade....not a one year sugar hit. We probably would have done the same thing and topped up a limited list with more GOPs in the off season.

Kids get to soar when older players are around them. Put them in a side with no-one to protect them or do heavy lifting and you are North Melbourne. Who has dropped away apart from Gresham? Hill is playing better, Steele has been smashed, Crouch is in career best form, Wood is flying. To me the older guys have been good part from injury and Gresham losing all form. Howard is the other that hasn't been great I guess. To me they are just a bit limited which we already knew. We lack star class. It looks like if we are getting that class it's coming for the guys we pumped games into.

For me, expectations grow as they showed they were capable of more. We showed we are good enough to be in the bottom half of the 8 from our performances against similar teams. To then, potentially, end the season not being able to compete for 4 quarters and beat those sides is incredible disappointing. Just because things haven't been perfect with availability, doesn't mean we should then accept another fade out.

And it's been great to get games into the younger players but their good performances this year doesn't guarantee more opportunities for them moving forward. Remember 2020 when Clark/Coffield/Paton were the core of our defence moving forward? 3 years later, very little good quality football from any of them and there is questions marks about all their futures at the club. We have/had the opportunity to play finals with this new batch of kids this year and are likely on the way to screwing up the landing 2 years in a row. We might think they are great now but that doesn't guarantee better opportunities with them moving forward. The mindset that it's okay because there are finals appearances in the future is part of the problem. If we have to wait for a perfect list with a great injury run before we expect more of our group, we will be waiting a very long time.

 

[beside the seaside]

Caminiti Pou and Owens playing regularly isn't an upgrade to you over what we had?

If two s**t sides play each other and it's close it doesn't mean both sides are good. There's about 15 very average sides, us being one of them, who have a max output of finding themselves in the bottom half of the eight. Says a lot about the quality of the comp. However given the 8-3 start, we were well ahead of any of them in terms of finding a place in the eight. The comp is s**t if we look bottom four but are routinely in 6th.

We don't look tired and limited at all. We pumped Hawthorn last week, stayed in games against top four sides despite injury, and had to mount comebacks to win a few. I don't know where the tired and limited talk has come from, just sounds like an excuse.

And finally, young =/= bad. Yes the list got younger but there's far more talent on it than last year.

There's no way Caminiti is an upgrade on what we had last year in Membrey and Hayes. That's a huge downgrade. Phillipou looks like an exciting prospect but his output has been pretty poor, understandable for a first year player but he is hardly an upgrade at this stage.

Owens has been outstanding.

 

[phantom13]

For me, expectations grow as they showed they were capable of more. We showed we are good enough to be in the bottom half of the 8 from our performances against similar teams. To then, potentially, end the season not being able to compete for 4 quarters and beat those sides is incredible disappointing. Just because things haven't been perfect with availability, doesn't mean we should then accept another fade out.

And it's been great to get games into the younger players but their good performances this year doesn't guarantee more opportunities for them moving forward. Remember 2020 when Clark/Coffield/Paton were the core of our defence moving forward? 3 years later, very little good quality football from any of them and there is questions marks about all their futures at the club. We have/had the opportunity to play finals with this new batch of kids this year and are likely on the way to screwing up the landing 2 years in a row. We might think they are great now but that doesn't guarantee better opportunities with them moving forward. The mindset that it's okay because there are finals appearances in the future is part of the problem. If we have to wait for a perfect list with a great injury run before we expect more of our group, we will be waiting a very long time.

The other bit to this is seeing some development doesnt automatically mean we improve next year either.

I remember the dees making a prelim in 2018, going to Perth and getting smacked and every dees supporter i knew thought next years flag was a foregone conclusion.

They regressed in 2019 (granted they went on to win a flag a couple years later) but we still dont see an established and clear plan and structure, we dont see minimum standards and blokes getting dropped for not meeting them.

Im honestly not sure what Ross and co have got out of this year, i hope they got something but its been tough to see it.

 

[George]

There's no way Caminiti is an upgrade on what we had last year in Membrey and Hayes. That's a huge downgrade. Phillipou looks like an exciting prospect but his output has been pretty poor, understandable for a first year player but he is hardly an upgrade at this stage.

Owens has been outstanding.

Goes back to my previous comment about it being a moot point. Membrey and Hayes were out during a period in which we were winning and winning well. Them not playing doesn't take away from the fact that Camiiti's inclusion onto the list makes the list better than it was last year.

Who did we let go of last year that was producing more than Pou?

 

[beside the seaside]

Goes back to my previous comment about it being a moot point. Membrey and Hayes were out during a period in which we were winning and winning well. Them not playing doesn't take away from the fact that Camiiti's inclusion onto the list makes the list better than it was last year.

Who did we let go of last year that was producing more than Pou?

They're both project players and they're playing because they're young. If they were 25 there's no way they'd be playing but we are hoping they become a big part of our future. I don't think either player has really improved our side but happy to hear otherwise.

 

[George]

They're both project players and they're playing because they're young. If they were 25 there's no way they'd be playing but we are hoping they become a big part of our future. I don't think either player has really improved our side but happy to hear otherwise.

Young =/= bad. Who did we get rid of last year that was producing more than these guys?

 

[BrutThough]

The other bit to this is seeing some development doesnt automatically mean we improve next year either.

I remember the dees making a prelim in 2018, going to Perth and getting smacked and every dees supporter i knew thought next years flag was a foregone conclusion.

They regressed in 2019 (granted they went on to win a flag a couple years later) but we still dont see an established and clear plan and structure, we dont see minimum standards and blokes getting dropped for not meeting them.

Im honestly not sure what Ross and co have got out of this year, i hope they got something but its been tough to see it.

I love to know what they've got out of this year. Despite their tag line of 'a year of exploration', there hasn't been that much exploring happening.

My worry is with the style of football we've been playing and how uninspiring it is to watch. Especially compared to so many other up and coming teams. If we continue to play such a dour way, it's hard to see us taking the step forward next year alongside all these attacking teams. I think that's why throwing away out start of the season for a 2nd year in a row is such a sour note. We have so many players whose natural attributes and strengths would thrive with a fast, attacking style yet this 'exploration' we are on is having us play the opposite way.

 

[BucketsandBanger]

I didn't say we had, I said I dunno how people could've expected that heading into the season

I’m not across this board as much as you obviously but apart from the kids in the team (Pou, Owens) I don’t see that much positivity or excuses haha this place is pretty miserable most of the time. There’s a couple of prominent posters who back up the club but that’s about it. Generally Saints supporters are beaten down and devoid of hope with good reason.

 

[Tommy Wigs]

You need to train them to react the way the game plan wants them too.
Like your dog sits before it realizes you have food for it.

That's what he did the first time he coached the Saints. They automatically moved to the right places and did the right things without thinking about the plan.

If they are training for that, it wll take time.

Pahahah. Can we call them Wolfy as a collective?

Might throw a schmacko out on the G