Round 3:- Blues V Bombers pre match discussion

[nighthawk]

Closer. Well duh!

The point you posed was whether we would struggle.

While we wouldn't be quite as competitive, we wouldn't struggle.

I obviously didn't mean that everyone's second-tier mids would struggle against other teams' second tier mids. That doesn't make sense...

I'm saying that any depleted midfield would struggle against a full-strength midfield. I do believe that list you gave would struggle against our top end mids, and that was the point I was trying to make.

I can understand how my post may have been poorly communicated, so my apologies there.

Well Essendon have a truly terrible midfield, statistically the worse defense in the AFL in 2008 (fact), and a forward llne relying on 2, well over 30 year olds who can no longer kick goals at this level. Only 2 weeks ago you were thumped by Port, and last week had an unconvincing win against Freo on your home turf. Ruck situation - Hille is serviceable, and then there's no one else. Gameplan and poor coaching have also been issues, and I'd be surprised if Knights isn't replaced at the end of the season. He wasn't your first choice, or even 2nd choice you'll recall. Last Resort. Essendon will be getting a whole lot worse before they improve I'm afraid. You need 3 quality midfielders, and another 2 quality KP defenders, and another 2 quality KP forwards i.e. another 3 drafts minimum. You're in this situation because of Sheed's top up recruting addiction in his last 3-4 years. Getting the coaching appointment wrong didn't help either. I guess anything could happen on the day, but in terms of raw talent, and player quality, the Blues should win this one by 80 points or so.

Not sure where you get your info from, but Knights has been a great coach so far. From the very beginning he said his approach involved two steps. First he was going to try to implement an attacking focus, and even before his first game as coach said that defensively there may be costs but it is a long term plan. Then the second stage is working defensively, which has definitely been more of a focus this year. Many didn't like Knights at the start (although he was my number 1 choice for the job) but have since been won over by his performance thus far. Sorry pal, but maybe learn a bit more about a topic before you pretend to be an expert.

 

[Blues_Man]

On the contrary, I think we're developing some fairly good depth. Think about it, choose your seven best mids, then pick 5 of them to get rid of. And the two you keep can't even be your best two. I think any team would struggle with that dilemma.



Haha, mate, TBH those three don't even compare to our players out.



Ummm... Carlton's backs don't compare to Essendon's forwards. You've been completely blinded by bias if you truly believe that. Carlton's forwards again aren't a huge scare for most teams (apart from fev), but we don't have our ideal backline and even then we're quite young down there so you may be right. Hopefully Knights sees the light keeps Ryder down back. I already said carltons mids are your clear strength, and that while previously we've been able to match them despite the mismatch on paper, this game we will especially struggle.

Essendon are so awesome that they got smashed by a very ordinary Port side...beating Freo has given you lot a false sense of security..well get prepared for another dose of reality..i'm tipping half you delusional lot of bummer supporters won't be sighted around these parts come saturday night .

 

[Boucks09]

Well Essendon have a truly terrible midfield,

We have a better midfield than Melbourne, Fremantle, Collingwood, North Melbourne and West Coast. Harldy the worst in the league. That is based on the CURRENT fit players. Throw in the injured blokes and we are better again.

statistically the worse defense in the AFL in 2008 (fact)

If you want to bring up 2008 then statistically Carlton were only 2 games better in wins, 87 points better in scoring and 254 points better in defense. Not a massive difference there given we played our u/19's in the last match and lost by 20 goals.

and a forward llne relying on 2, well over 30 year olds who can no longer kick goals at this level.

Given the importance you place on 2008 stats then we are relying on two guys who scored a combined 80 goals from 30 games, whlst you are relying on one player who scored 100.

Only 2 weeks ago you were thumped by Port, and last week had an unconvincing win against Freo on your home turf.

We were with 3 goals with less than 10 minutes to go, that is not a thumping. We led all day against Freo and played 7 players with less than 10 games experience. Not sure what else we could've done?

Ruck situation - Hille is serviceable, and then there's no one else.

He is regarding as the 3rd best ruckman in the competiton behind Cox and Sandilands. A bit more than servicable I would think.

Gameplan and poor coaching have also been issues, and I'd be surprised if Knights isn't replaced at the end of the season.He wasn't your first choice, or even 2nd choice you'll recall. Last Resort.

Not sure what you are referring to here? I recall that Ratten wasn't your first choice either...some bloke by the name of Voss turned you down I recall. How is Ratten any better than Knights? Ratten inherited a list with 3 #1 draft picks (after purposely losing all his game as interim coach). Knights won't be replaced at the end of the year...period.

Essendon will be getting a whole lot worse before they improve I'm afraid.

You need 3 quality midfielders

Prismall, Zaharakis, Reimers

and another 2 quality KP defenders,

Hurley, Pears, Daniher

and another 2 quality KP forwards

Neagle, Gumbleton, Ryder

I guess anything could happen on the day, but in terms of raw talent, and player quality, the Blues should win this one by 80 points or so.

If the game was based soley on raw talent and player quality (not sure what that even means), then Geelong would've been premiers last year, you would never have beaten us in the 1999 Preliminary Final and Scott Gumbleton and Andrew Walker would be superstars. There is a lot more that goes into winning a football match.

I'd be very surprised if you win by 80pts.

 

[parrot]

We have a better midfield than Melbourne, Fremantle, Collingwood, North Melbourne and West Coast. ....

lol. You have to be joking. Weagles and North are miles ahead. Even the Pies and Freo have better quality in the middle. At this stage you're about line-ball with the Dees in the midfield talent stakes. It's been a massive problem down at Bomberland for about 3 years now. You don't have a midfield.

 

[EssendonPride]

Essendon are so awesome that they got smashed by a very ordinary Port side...beating Freo has given you lot a false sense of security..well get prepared for another dose of reality..i'm tipping half you delusional lot of bummer supporters won't be sighted around these parts come saturday night .

Too right, we'll be at the game??

 

[The Donners]

You are a funny man sir i particularly liked the comment re zaharakis and murphy, have a look at some of the goals murph has kicked this year and come back and talk to me. Zaharakis had a good debut but gee you're going a bit early! Murphy touches the ball 30 times a game!! Goose.

Judd, Murphy, Gibbs, Stevens, Grigg, Hadley, Simpson, Scotland, Kruezer is better than most midfields in the league let alone your z grade midfield.

You are going to need alot go right on the night to break even with it. If our lads come to play and exert the pressure they have in the first two weeks i'm tipping 8+ goals....i'm pretty confident they will given there is about 6 or 7 guys in the VFL queing up to take spots if they don't!

Those in red are equivalent to Essendon's Winderlich, Lonergan, Stanton and Dempsey. Those in blue are equivalent to Essendon's Lovett, McVeigh and Watson. The player in green will be beaten by Hille in the ruck. We don't have any comparative to Judd, not many clubs do, if he is kept relatively quiet by Hocking and held to account, i.e. less than 25 touches, we will go close to breaking even in the middle. As I mentioned earlier Hille and Watson are the best ruck/midfielder combination in the league, if Essendon get first possession often enough I feel our forward line of Lucas, Lloyd, Ryder, Monfries, Davey and McPhee/Jetta will be too difficult for Thornton, Waite, Bower, Johnson, O'hAilpin and Houlihan/Stevens/Grigg/Scotland. Lucas and Lloyd are the unknown factor, if they are poor again, Carlton in a canter... if they are on song or we have another 12 goal scorers (as we did against Fremantle) we are a very strong chance.

2008's results are continued to be mentioned, that we had one of the weakest defenses in the competition... we beat Carlton twice in 2008 and the response from Carlton is, that won't happen again. In 2009, this year, Essendon's defense is in the top half of the competition - Richmond and Brisbane are in the bottom half.

Fletcher, Pears, Daniher, Quinn, Dempsey and Slattery is a good defensive setup, particular with the emergence of Pears which allows Fletcher to move around ala Thornton has done so far... but Thornton will not have that luxury with Essendon's 4-tall forward line (if McPhee plays), something which both Richmond and Brisbane do not have.

Pears on Fevola, Slattery on Betts, Quinn on Wiggins, Fletcher on Cloke and Dempsey and Daniher to run off.

Not that he is available but add Hurley to that backline and it's one of the most promising young backlines in the competition - upon Fletcher's retirement.

Carlton are further ahead in their development, that's why they should win... but if Essendon's youngsters have one of their "on" weeks, Essendon will make it very difficult for Carlton to go 3 and zip.

Again, good luck!

P.S. I've enjoyed the BF build-up!

 

[EssendonPride]

Fletcher, Pears, Daniher, Quinn, Dempsey and Slattery is a good defensive setup, particular with the emergence of Pears which allows Fletcher to move around ala Thornton has done so far... but Thornton will not have that luxury with Essendon's 4-tall forward line (if McPhee plays), something which both Richmond and Brisbane do not have.

Pears on Fevola, Slattery on Betts, Quinn on Wiggins, Fletcher on Cloke and Dempsey and Daniher to run off.

Quinn on Wiggins? Are you on crack?
He'd get monstered.

 

[Boucks09]

i'm tipping half you delusional lot of bummer supporters won't be sighted around these parts come saturday night .

Nope i'll be at the game. And if we were to lose I'll be copping shit on the chin from the Carlton mates I'm going with. Then I will fire up again for Round 4 against North Melbourne.

lol. You have to be joking. Weagles and North are miles ahead. Even the Pies and Freo have better quality in the middle. At this stage you're about line-ball with the Dees in the midfield talent stakes. It's been a massive problem down at Bomberland for about 3 years now. You don't have a midfield.

WCE

Kerr: a stand out and 15% better than our best McVeigh
Priddis: Gets a lot of cheap stats but not as effective as Watson
Selwood: Equivalent of Stanton but doesn't provide the same run
Stenglien: Virtually the same as Andrew Welsh
Rosa: Not as good as Prismall
Fletcher: Not as good as Lovett
Masten: Equivalent of Reimers

North Melbourne

Harvey: a stand out and 20% better than our best McVeigh although he is well over 30
Simpson: Well past his best but similar in effectiveness to Prismall
Rawlings: Equivalent to Welsh
Wells: Equivalent to Lovett
Swallow: Not as good as Stanton
Power: Not as good as Watson

Given that fact that you haven't replied to all the other points does that mean you agree with them?

 

[parrot]

.....Carlton are further ahead in their development, that's why they should win... but if Essendon's youngsters....

The Blues just have a heap more list talent, and are better coached, that's why we'll win. Also note your starting 22 has 3 players well over 30 in it - this Dons lineup is not exactly a young side. The Blues oldest is 29 (Stevens).

 

[nighthawk]

Haha, I love that Carlton suppporters are getting so fired up over a game that they should easily win. Essendon's midfield isn't nearly so bad as you suppose. Let's face it, last year you were beaten and the main cause was the midfield battle which you got destroyed in.

It's a shame we won't really get to see a proper battle of the lists this week.

Maybe in round 13 there'll be a real contest and you'll be shocked.

The worst part is that you guys will win this weekend and get all cocky and arrogant and really you'll have no reason to.

 

[The Donners]

Typical Essendon excuses. We would beat you if you had your best 22 on the park.

There should be a law that Essendon supporters can't bitch about their injuries.

No excuses. Same if Jamison AND Fevola miss.

As for beating us with our best 22 on the park, no you wouldn't. Reimers, Hurley, Welsh, Bellchambers, Gumbleton, Lonergan and Prismall to choose from. Most Essendon supporters would say those in bold would be in our starting 22 and I would personally add Gumbleton.

 

[EssendonPride]

The Blues just have a heap more list talent, and are better coached, that's why we'll win. Also note your starting 22 has 3 players well over 30 in it - this Dons lineup is not exactly a young side. The Blues oldest is 29 (Stevens).

But you've spent half your life telling us how useless Lucas and Lloyd are.

Meaning really, we'll be taking you on with 20 players, only 1 of which is over 30.

 

[Bluebear]

Quinn on Wiggins? Are you on crack?
He'd get monstered.

Clearly on crack and hasn't watched the Dons for about 10 years.
Evidence?
He's got Fletcher listed as having a direct opponent.

 

[thylacine60]

Haha, I love that Carlton suppporters are getting so fired up over a game that they should easily win. Essendon's midfield isn't nearly so bad as you suppose. Let's face it, last year you were beaten and the main cause was the midfield battle which you got destroyed in.

It's a shame we won't really get to see a proper battle of the lists this week.

Maybe in round 13 there'll be a real contest and you'll be shocked.

The worst part is that you guys will win this weekend and get all cocky and arrogant and really you'll have no reason to.

Which means the best part is you getting excited if you win?

 

[parrot]

.....
WCE

Kerr: a stand out and 15% better than our best McVeigh
Priddis: Gets a lot of cheap stats but not as effective as Watson
Selwood: Equivalent of Stanton but doesn't provide the same run
Stenglien: Virtually the same as Andrew Welsh
Rosa: Not as good as Prismall
Fletcher: Not as good as Lovett
Masten: Equivalent of Reimers

..

Watson is average - can't kick, slow. Priddis is light years ahead. Comparing McVeigh to Kerr is silly. McVeigh is closer to Fletcher or Stenglein. Masten is lightyears more talented than Reimers. The Dons would swap those players in a heartbeat. Selwood and Stanton are both average footballers. Anyway, with Kerr, and Masten plus a few others you haven't included the Weagles are miles ahead of your midfield. Dees are the only ones you'd be matched to. How did the Dons midfield end up so bad? To be fair to Knights, most of the damage was done before he arrived i.e. Sheeds top-up recruitment policy. The Blues first 7-8 midfielders better than the best "midfielder" on the Dons list.

 

[nighthawk]

The Blues just have a heap more list talent, and are better coached, that's why we'll win. Also note your starting 22 has 3 players well over 30 in it - this Dons lineup is not exactly a young side. The Blues oldest is 29 (Stevens).

Lol... I couldn't find it, but I'm pretty sure someone pointed out we had 7 players with less than 10 games experience. Wanna do an average of which team is more inexperienced? You've got no chance.

 

[Bluebear]

I obviously didn't mean that everyone's second-tier mids would struggle against other teams' second tier mids. That doesn't make sense...

I'm saying that any depleted midfield would struggle against a full-strength midfield. I do believe that list you gave would struggle against our top end mids, and that was the point I was trying to make.

I can understand how my post may have been poorly communicated, so my apologies there.

Oh I see.

So if you had your best 22 and we lost those 7 then the tables would be turned.
Well, maybe. But I think you'd be surprised at the quality of a Grigg, Murphy, Gibbs midfield with those others in support. I don't think you can add Prismall just yet because he is unproven as a front line mid.
Looked great as the 7th mid behind Ablett, Bartell and co, but how does he cope with a tag? Probably never had to do it.
Reimers I like and adds something to your run, can actually kick most of the time (which pretty much makes him your best mid). Welsh is a good tagger but I don't rate his hurt factor.

McVeigh is the one that I'm very gald isn't playing this weekend.

 

[EssendonPride]

Oh I see.

So if you had your best 22 and we lost those 7 then the tables would be turned.
Well, maybe. But I think you'd be surprised at the quality of a Grigg, Murphy, Gibbs midfield with those others in support. I don't think you can add Prismall just yet because he is unproven as a front line mid.
Looked great as the 7th mid behind Ablett, Bartell and co, but how does he cope with a tag? Probably never had to do it.
Reimers I like and adds something to your run, can actually kick most of the time (which pretty much makes him your best mid). Welsh is a good tagger but I don't rate his hurt factor.

McVeigh is the one that I'm very gald isn't playing this weekend.

Latest training report might worry you a bit then.

 

[The Donners]

The Blues just have a heap more list talent, and are better coached, that's why we'll win. Also note your starting 22 has 3 players well over 30 in it - this Dons lineup is not exactly a young side. The Blues oldest is 29 (Stevens).

I don't think age is at all relevant.

You argue you have more list talent, I dispute it and say ours is spread evenly across our list. Murphy, Kreuzer, Gibbs, Robinson, Yarran, Russell, Garlett, Jamison, Jacobs, Joseph, Johnson and Bower v Hurley, Ryder, Dempsey, Pears, Zaharikis, Reimers, Gumbleton, Houli, Quinn, Jetta, Bellchambers, Neagle, Myers, Lonergan and Daniher are our respective futures. You'll call me biased but I'd take the Dons 15.

As the old saying goes, it's not your best 6 that wins you premierships, it's your bottom 6 players.

 

[Bluebear]

Lol... I couldn't find it, but I'm pretty sure someone pointed out we had 7 players with less than 10 games experience. Wanna do an average of which team is more inexperienced? You've got no chance.

Might be closer than you think.

Jacobs, Robinson, Garlett and Joseph all on 2 games. Johnson and +/- O'hAilpin in the teens. Only Hoops, Stevens, Judd, Fev, Scotland and Wiggo (just) over the 100 games.

Kreuzer 22, Murph around 50, Gibbs 46, Bower and Russell under 40, Cloke 49, Hadley there abouts. Simpson and Waite under 100.

You probably do have it, but I wouldn't think it would be by loads.

 

[EssendonPride]

Might be closer than you think.

Jacobs, Robinson, Garlett and Joseph all on 2 games. Johnson and +/- O'hAilpin in the teens. Only Hoops, Stevens, Judd, Fev, Scotland and Wiggo (just) over the 100 games.

Kreuzer 22, Murph around 50, Gibbs 46, Bower and Russell under 40, Cloke 49, Hadley there abouts. Simpson and Waite under 100.

You probably do have it, but I wouldn't think it would be by loads.

33 and 46 respectively, hardly "teens"

 

[Blues_Man]

Judd, Gibbs, Murphy, Stevens, all are better than any midfielder on the bombers list ..Fact !

 

[The Donners]

Watson is average - can't kick, slow. Priddis is light years ahead . Comparing McVeigh to Kerr is silly. McVeigh is closer to Fletcher or Stenglein. Masten is lightyears more talented than Reimers. The Dons would swap those players in a heartbeat. Selwood and Stanton are both average footballers. Anyway, with Kerr, and Masten plus a few others you haven't included the Weagles are miles ahead of your midfield. Dees are the only ones you'd be matched to. How did the Dons midfield end up so bad? To be fair to Knights, most of the damage was done before he arrived i.e. Sheeds top-up recruitment policy. The Blues first 7-8 midfielders better than the best "midfielder" on the Dons list.

You not rating our midfielder does not make them "so bad".

As for drafting, we opted for quality talls with our early round picks with Gumbleton, Pears, Hurley, Ryder, and the father/son picks Daniher and Neagle. The other teams went midfielders.

Let I remind you we defeated 7 teams in '08 which says to me that our midfield matches up to more teams than you give them credit for... add from '08 Prismall and Zaharikis and I would have a guess that it would match up to more than 7 teams. You obviously prefer the flashy big name type midfielders as opposed to those that actually get the job done. Our midfield is ultra competitive, tough and quick... very quick!

 

[pazza]

I hope that it's a close one - and can't find any reason to suggest that it won't be.

 

[The Donners]

Judd, Gibbs, Murphy, Stevens, all are better than any midfielder on the bombers list ..Fact !

McVeigh is second to Judd. Prismall (workrate) is equivalent to all bar Judd and so too Watson (wins his own ball) and Lovett (leg speed and disposal) - simply different players.