Mega Thread Senior Coach Discussion - Neeld v the alternatives

[Red and blue dream]

Comrades - we are all hurting at the moment and rightly so. Today was a disgrace. A chance will come to redeem ourselves.

That being said, I have yet to see anything from Mark Neeld since Game 1 2012 that justifies his selection.

We consistently lose the clearances in the centre. Our crab-like movements across the ground are demoralising and ever-so-easy to anticipate.

For instance, what is the highest score we have kicked under Neeld? Does anyone know?

Say what you like about 2011 but we kicked some monster scores against Freo and West Horsham. I cannot say that Neeld is an improvement game-day over Bailey.

Neeld did nothing today to try and change the outcome which was foreseeable from the very first minutes. Why not Jamar to FF and Watts to the outside midfield?

No wonder the crowd gave the Bronx cheer to Dunn today when he elected to kick down the centre for a change.

What are your thoughts? This far into the journey, can you glean any merit in our present coach?

 

[Red and blue dream]

First time using this. Just wondering if anyone else thinks neeld is too focused on structure. It's like the boys need too be set free . There like kids out there, afraid of loosing "structure ".

 

[Theseventhhamster]

Seriously?

This is just simple straightforward logic.

The fact we've switched head coaches and delisted/traded numerous players, but still find ourselves confronting the same problems as we did in 2011, makes it pretty spectacularly obvious what's going on.

If you think otherwise, how am I somehow wrong in my verdict about those three?

We can send as many new head coaches through the revolving door as we like. If the same calibre of people remain on our coaching staff otherwise, chances are we'll keep on seeing this situation repeat itself ad nauseum.

Anyone who thinks otherwise is kidding themselves.

Not addressing that issue would be as bad as, or worse than, replacing Neeld with yet another person who's untried and untested at AFL level.

They are assistants Wonna. They may be shit and in Royal's case he almost certainly is but they aren't running the show. Can you articulate anything you've noticed about the gameplan outside of kick it along the boundary at all costs?

 

[Wonaeamirri33]

Can you articulate anything you've noticed about the gameplan outside of kick it along the boundary at all costs?

Not based on Sunday's match, no. But on and off before then - especially in Round 10 last year, of course.

The fact we can't see a clearly-defined gameplan happening on the field says to me that there's a communications breakdown happening as far as explaining to each player about their specific role, and developing each player to do their best within that plan.

Especially worrying, given that most reportage about what Neeld's trying to implement suggests there isn't much complexity about his modus operandi since he came in.

The new Melbourne coach has brought '80s-style football back into vogue in his first outings at the helm. His predecessor Dean Bailey could be accused of being too complicated, but Neeld has clearly dumbed it down.

On all evidence seen so far, Neeld's message goes something like this: "Forget the short chip stuff - create a contest and win the contest. Above all else, keep it SIMPLE".

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/afl/mar...lbourne-to-1980s/story-fn7si05c-1226291152173

'Right now the game plan, if there was such a document, is sitting in the top drawer. We will get that out later. This is about right now challenging the players in all aspects and getting them educated to understand that as a coaching group this is what we want,'' Neeld said.

''What is my broader philosophy? I was told with the media training whatever you do don't make a big statement, and so the first thing I said was 'I wanted to coach the hardest team to play against', so I failed media training. I want to coach competitors, I want to have a competitive team. So does every coach, I am aware of that, and my role is to instil competitors in the player group and to back it up with selection.''

The instruction is not one that favours open and attack, shut down and hold, boundary line or corridor, long kicking or fast handball. It is a broader football philosophy that the game is predicated on earning the ball in every contest.

''Watch the grand final,'' Neeld said. ''There was not a player out there you would not describe as a competitor. There is no room for non-competitors on grand final day. Contested ball is king. The ability to make quick, correct decisions under pressure over and over and over again happens on grand final day.''

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/neelds-blank-canvas-20111111-1nbw7.html

So on the face of it, I don't think there's a problem about Neeld's game planning somehow being overly complicated.

 

[deeman87]

This thread and our performance on the weekend reminds me why i was so angry about Neeld trading Gys for Pederson. I have to say i'm feeling completely justified in getting so heated when it happened. Why the **** Neeld thought we needed another average tall when we already have so many is beyond me and to sacrifice midfield depth and a promising albeit not that hard working midfielder for yet another shitty tall. Guy has got to go, as do all of our assistants except Mission and Todd Viney. He's seriously put us back another couple of years. At least under Daniher and then Bailey we looked to take the game on and attack, i've seen nothing from Neeld's game plan that indicates any willingness to take risks or take the game on and then we still can't defend.

 

[d33my]

Just on the "Neeld's gameplan too complicated" debate - I was thinking about the game in the shower this morning (not what it sounds like) and I reckon that, to a certain extent, the players are having conflicting thoughts when they get the ball, mostly due to Neelds instruction vs. their natural inclination.

I think this theory fits in with a lot of the problems we're having right now:


-players who were seemingly good all of a sudden looking lost at sea (Frawley, Garland and Sylvia to an extent etc)
-atrocious decision making
-not chasing, one percenters etc.

The players are torn - their natural footy brains are telling them to do one thing (kick it in the middle, take a man on, etc) but in the back of their mind they have Neeld's "plan", and so they second guess themselves and all of a sudden instead of just going with their instinct they either try and apply Neeld's plan when the situation really doesn't call for it or try and combine their instinct with his plan and kick it straight to an opposition player.

This could also potentially account for why they aren't chasing as much - maybe they're worried if they work off their direct opponent to chase or something they'll be called out for not sticking to the plan because they'll find themselves suddenly out of position.

Basically Neeld has them paralysed from playing natural football and is instead trying to construct a match for them, when in reality they need to rely more on their instincts, which we have seen them display - i.e. Frawley in 2010, Watts in patches, etc.

Now of course this doesn't account for all of our problems - some of our players are genuinely shit and/or not interested - but IMO it does account for why we lost to Port by 80 points at the 'G instead of just, say, 20 or 30.

TL;DR - Neeld's got them scared to play their natural game.

 

[CTHORANGE]

This could also potentially account for why they aren't chasing as much - maybe they're worried if they work off their direct opponent to chase or something they'll be called out for not sticking to the plan because they'll find themselves suddenly out of position.

This. There was one stage where we were fiddling around with the ball (what's new?) near the boundary at the 50m arc, it might have been Byrnes was keeping it alive and running around knocking it on, but at no stage did any other of our players move one step towards the forward 50m line, and in the end Byrnes, after mucking around for 30 seconds had to bomb it to two port adelaide players waiting near the goal square. This made it bleedingly obvious the players didn't know if they were the one who should move into the forward 50 to give Byrnes a target, and if they did what would happen if their man ended up with the ball on the rebound? Too much indecision at the moment.

 

[d33my]

And, to add one more point (meant to say it in original post) the indecision is one of those problems that gets compounded as the margin gets bigger - all of a sudden the players say 'well, we're losing by heaps, coach will be livid, better stick to the plan!' This then creates more problems, leading to more goals, leading to more indecision and so on until the team is booed off by 15,000 fans in disgust.

 

[Wonaeamirri33]

Just on the "Neeld's gameplan too complicated" debate - I was thinking about the game in the shower this morning (not what it sounds like) and I reckon that, to a certain extent, the players are having conflicting thoughts when they get the ball, mostly due to Neelds instruction vs. their natural inclination.

That post seems to assume that Neeld's changed his approach since last year - I'd be surprised if that were the case.

Again, going by any reporting I've seen over the last year and a half about his approach, it looks to me that playing a more natural and basic style, winning every contest, chasing, playing competitive football above all else, is essential to what he's trying to do.

So it's particularly shocking that this wasn't happening against Port.

As I say, it looks like there's a pretty monstrous communication failure going on.

Unless somehow Neeld has changed course this season.

 

[d33my]

That post seems to assume that Neeld's changed his approach since last year - I'd be surprised if that were the case.

Again, going by any reporting I've seen over the last year and a half about his approach, it looks to me that playing a more natural and basic style, winning every contest, chasing, playing competitive football above all else, is essential to what he's trying to do.

So it's particularly shocking that this wasn't happening against Port.

As I say, it looks like there's a pretty monstrous communication failure going on.

Unless somehow Neeld has changed course this season.

Fair points.

I guess, though, that there is always the things that Neeld tells the media/fans what he's trying to do (i.e. winning every contest, chasing, competitive football (ugh), etc.) and what he actually says behind closed doors. Might be a bit of a gap.

But, I think you've hit the nail on the head RE communication failure - whatever is happening, or meant to be happening, it seems like the message just ain't going through (from coach to players or from players to coach).

 

[Wonaeamirri33]

That's the biggest reason why I'm looking at the assistants more than anything else.

Because, again, it's supposed to be their primary job to explain to each player individually what they're supposed to be doing, and working with each player to develop them appropriately, in line with the overall plan.

If that's not happening, and it certainly doesn't look like it right now, then this problem has to be addressed with absolute urgency - and I shudder to think what's ahead of us if it isn't.

 

[elpirate]

Neil Craig is at your club.
That is all.

 

[ThePuppetMaster]

Um, you guys are massive, massive sooks

These posters are being respectful and giving very valid non-biased opinions (as well as being sympathetic).

Don't be rude to them because of your anger at our club guys.

I just want them to **** off and leave me to my misery!

I don't want their pity.

 

[Ando727]

One thing I've noticed is that the less somebody has studied or followed Melbourne, the more sure they are that they know exactly what should be done to fix us.

 

[Geelong63]

That's the biggest reason why I'm looking at the assistants more than anything else.

Because, again, it's supposed to be their primary job to explain to each player individually what they're supposed to be doing, and working with each player to develop them appropriately, in line with the overall plan.

If that's not happening, and it certainly doesn't look like it right now, then this problem has to be addressed with absolute urgency - and I shudder to think what's ahead of us if it isn't.

Pardon the intrusion guys

I totally agree Wona

You need to move on both Royal and Rawlings NOW (End of story)

You need to employ quality people, not good blokes

 

[Wonaeamirri33]

I just want them to **** off and leave me to my misery!

 

[Blackas87]

First time using this. Just wondering if anyone else thinks neeld is too focused on structure. It's like the boys need too be set free . There like kids out there, afraid of loosing "structure ".

Yes, it's like the players are too worried about standing in the right position than concentrating on the actual play.

 

[lose]

I have a thought, and it may seem rediculous and way to simply, but does anyone else think that maybe the players had got ahead of themselves due to being told how much better shape they were in and how they'd improved so drastically compared to last preseason? the move I've thought about it since Sunday I just get the feeling this is the case, just from the dead set shock all the players were in after the game..
Maybe this is just me being really hopefully that it could be that simple, that this week they will come out and have a real crack after bring so severely smashed..

 

[Bojangles17]

if you guys search for another coach i reckon you couldnt go past Garry Ayres, has a great CV is still coaching well and importantly would walk over hot coals for a return to afl ranks, hang in there

 

[tdyen]

if you guys search for another coach i reckon you couldnt go past Garry Ayres, has a great CV is still coaching well and importantly would walk over hot coals for a return to afl ranks, hang in there

Now that's a darn good suggestion. He has worked wonders at Port Melbourne given its all part time footballers. I wonder if he'd take on an assistants role even?

 

[Wonaeamirri33]

Maybe Ayres as a defensive coach perhaps? That'd be a hell of an idea if it could happen

 

[Black Dynamite]

To those who believe our game plan is to complicated try to get down and watch training.
The entire preseason was devoted to moving the ball quickly, spreading hard and much of it was not going round the boundary but using the corridor.
What was served up on Sunday was the opposite of what has been practiced.
I don't know what is going on but it definitely has nothing to do with complicated, stifling game plans which confuse the players.

 

[PeacefulWarrior]

Unpopular post of the year.
However when I watched Melbourne it reminded me of how Port played in the latter part of the Primus era.

They were not giving their all for the club and the coach and that is a very sad thing for a supporter to see.

 

[Tulip]

Unpopular post of the year.
However when I watched Melbourne it reminded me of how Port played in the latter part of the Primus era.

They were not giving their all for the club and the coach and that is a very sad thing for a supporter to see.

Did you see a lot of jogging? True question.

 

[PeacefulWarrior]

Well I dont know about jogging but I did see a lot of second to the ball and being outnumbered at the contest.