Snoops 2016 List Management, Trade and Draft thoughts

[Bay Pie]

Daniher
Boyd
Wright
Moore

4 of the most promising young tall forwards in the AFL, all 200cm+. 6cm+ is a lot to give away

Franklin is 196/197cm. Josh Gibson takes him and other key forwards. He's 190/191cm. Rance similar size.

Reading of the play, body position and strength is worth move then an extra few cm's.

 

[legendstatus]

Yeah, we could use that to base it on but doubt it's the real issue..194 would be just about average for every team.


Sent from my warped mind

 

[Schraderbrau]

Franklin is 196/197cm. Josh Gibson takes him and other key forwards. He's 190/191cm. Rance similar size.

Reading of the play, body position and strength is worth move then an extra few cm's.

But we're almost talking about a different generation here when comparing Rance to these young guys. Lets see how Rance goes on these blokes as they beginning to mature, starting from next season. And that is if they even choose to play him on them at all due to the mismatch (Rance is 194cm btw). And don't forget that Rance is an outlier here. 99% of kids drafted as key position backs with similar height/weight characteristics are going to end up worse than him.

As for Gibson, his value is not as a 1v1 defender. It's peeling off and killing packs that is the difference between him being a multiple all Australian and an average run of the mill defender. He'd get pantsed if caught 1v1 versus Daniher, Moore or Wright (and probably Boyd pretty soon). Athletically he's so far out of their weight division it's almost unfair. The reason I suspect he has matched up on Franklin has more to do with the unique style of Franklin's play than Gibson's capacity to play 1v1 versus a taller opponent.

 

[sr36]

Franklin is 196/197cm. Josh Gibson takes him and other key forwards. He's 190/191cm. Rance similar size.

Reading of the play, body position and strength is worth move then an extra few cm's.

Agree. The best tall forwards would be happy to average 3 contested marks a game. Most of those come from good body work, where an extra 4cm would make no difference. At the worst 4cm is going to cost you 1 mark a week, but more likely 1 a month.

 

[jackcass]

Daniher
Boyd
Wright
Moore

4 of the most promising young tall forwards in the AFL, all 200cm+. 6cm+ is a lot to give away

Adams, Grundy, Fisher, Dempster, Gibson... all 192cm or less. Ideally you're KPDers would be that 194-5cm or more but I'm not convinced that it should be the only consideration.

 

[Apex36]

Adams, Grundy, Fisher, Dempster, Gibson... all 192cm or less. Ideally you're KPDers would be that 194-5cm or more but I'm not convinced that it should be the only consideration.

Why are you listing Gibson? He's as much of a key defender as Maxwell was. Specialist 3rd man up.

 

[jackcass]

Why are you listing Gibson? He's as much of a key defender as Maxwell was. Specialist 3rd man up.

Still plays the role when he has to.

 

[Apex36]

Still plays the role when he has to.

Yeah, but he's not very good at it.

 

[jackcass]

Yeah, but he's not very good at it.

Of course... just a hack really.

 

[Apex36]

Of course... just a hack really.

Cute. Maxwell was a brilliant 3rd man up too. Sometimes he played 1v1 key defence and was bad at it, much like Gibson. Clearly this means I think they're both hacks.

 

[doodles98]

Cute. Maxwell was a brilliant 3rd man up too. Sometimes he played 1v1 key defence and was bad at it, much like Gibson. Clearly this means I think they're both hacks.

Stop bickering with Jackass Apex. Kappa's getting jealous.

 

[Apex36]

Stop bickering with Jackass Apex. Kappa's getting jealous.

Your mother was a hamster, and your father smelt of elderberries.

 

[doodles98]

Your mother was a hamster, and your father smelt of elderberries.

Yeah well while you've been away busy with Jackass; me and Kappa have really been connecting!
You snooze - you lose bro!

 

[ToonAussie]

Thanks Snoop
and posters for keeping this thread a refuge from the doomsday stuff that is so constantly peddled everywhere else.

It has been so rewarding reading the contributions and your responses.

My thoughts
Yes we seem to lack depth for talls but we did last year as well.

Lost backmen - Frost and Brown and not as tall Marsh
and replaced them already with Dunn and Keeffe.

lost forwards - Trav and Gault
and replaced with Mayne

Lost ruckman Witts and yet to replace.

BUT remember
We lost games last season IMHO by picking teams that were too tall -read immobile and so very vulnerable in transition.
(We did need to know if we could play Grundy and Witts together and we did find out that we couldn't).

So we do need replacements but not just because they are tall - we do need to remember this at pick "28".
Even the sport for talls - Basketball - is requiring skilled talls not just talls that only "play in the post".

2003 GF when malthouse replaced the suspended Rocca with Jason cloke and the not good tall backman (yesterdays Gault)
as forwards to play on Leppitsch and Michael was just insane and still a very bad memory.
Still Sheedy picked a very tall forward line v us in 1990 and that worked out OK.

SO
we do need a back up ruckman but really the need is for good replacements not just tall replacements.
Marks of any sort inside 50 and converting them are more important than the ever harder to achieve contested marks inside 50.
This achieved with quick transition both ways and good foot skills and decision making.

The draft is not for now if drafting youth.
So still more oldies and untried?
We already have 12 players from other clubs on the books out of the 37 we have now pre draft.
The ever increasing modern way to go or just Buckley's fault!

 

[Schraderbrau]

Adams, Grundy, Fisher, Dempster, Gibson... all 192cm or less. Ideally you're KPDers would be that 194-5cm or more but I'm not convinced that it should be the only consideration.

Dempster?

For much of his career Fisher didn't play on the oppositions best forward

Adams has played half a season, I think it's a bit early to make any conclusions tbh.

4/5 of the players you mentioned are a generation apart from Danniher, Moore, Wright, Boyd etc. Forwards who were 200cm+ tall haven't existed until very recently.

 

[jackcass]

Cute. Maxwell was a brilliant 3rd man up too. Sometimes he played 1v1 key defence and was bad at it, much like Gibson. Clearly this means I think they're both hacks.

My bad. Thought you were just being flippant given Maxwell was a lot of things but KPD was never 1 of them and in teams that boasted Wakelin, Presti, Tarrant, Brown, Reid, and Keeffe (among others) you could likely count on 1 hand the number of games he was forced to play that role. Therefore the comparison to Gibson just couldn't be taken seriously.

I stated that there are a number of <=192cm KPD's, including Gibson, so height shouldn't be the only consideration. You subsequently agreed that Gibson does play the role but threw in a caveat that he's just not very good at it. Given he's played the role with some consistency in a team that has won 4 of the last 9 GFs, I just couldn't believe you were actually being serious.

At no time did I comment on player quality, just stated the fact that there are <=192cm KPDs.

Please feel free to target some other poor sop with your tedious need for self appeasement and one-upmanship, it really is quite tedious. At a minimum, try occasionally to be right or make it about more than a difference of opinion. And I've previously stated where I stand on what you think.

 

[Apex36]

My bad. Thought you were just being flippant given Maxwell was a lot of things but KPD was never 1 of them and in teams that boasted Wakelin, Presti, Tarrant, Brown, Reid, and Keeffe (among others) you could likely count on 1 hand the number of games he was forced to play that role. Therefore the comparison to Gibson just couldn't be taken seriously.

I must have been dreaming then when Maxwell was matched up on Franklin and others at various times. It didn't happen often but it happened. Same as Gibson, who is not a key defender, yet you somehow believe he is.

I stated that there are a number of <=192cm KPD's, including Gibson, so height shouldn't be the only consideration. You subsequently agreed that Gibson does play the role but threw in a caveat that he's just not very good at it. Given he's played the role with some consistency in a team that has won 4 of the last 9 GFs, I just couldn't believe you were actually being serious.

He doesn't play as a KPD consistently. Barely at all. Probably as much as Maxwell did. Just because a player plays a certain role (badly) when required to doesn't make them a legit player for that position.

At no time did I comment on player quality, just stated the fact that there are <=192cm KPDs.

Fantastic. Let's draft one because there are others out there who play the role badly.

Please feel free to target some other poor sop with your tedious need for self appeasement and one-upmanship, it really is quite tedious. At a minimum, try occasionally to be right or make it about more than a difference of opinion. And I've previously stated where I stand on what you think.

Stop crying when I disagree with you. You always end up resorting to personal barbs. It's completely childish.

 

[jackcass]

Dempster?

For much of his career Fisher didn't play on the oppositions best forward

Adams has played half a season, I think it's a bit early to make any conclusions tbh.

4/5 of the players you mentioned are a generation apart from Danniher, Moore, Wright, Boyd etc. Forwards who were 200cm+ tall haven't existed until very recently.

Dempster has played KPD a lot over the last few years, mainly due to injury and not someone who you'd want to rely on.

Fisher did play KPD, even if he got the 2nd KPF.

Adams is new to the game but is certainly promising.

Next year will be Danihers 5th season, Moores 3rd, Boyd's 4th... yes the numbers of taller KPFs is growing but it's hardly a new phenomenon, Clark (200cm), Tippett (202cm), Westhoff (199cm), Casboult (201cm), Vickery (200cm) and Griffiths (200cm) types have been about for a while.

My point wasn't that we don't need taller defenders, just that with Keeffe (204cm), Reid (195cm) and Dunn (another 192cm KPD) already on the list, the potential for White (196cm) and even Moore (200cm) to go back if needed, maybe we can use another 192-193 type and look to target a taller option in the 2017 KPP rich draft.

 

[jackcass]

I must have been dreaming then when Maxwell was matched up on Franklin and others at various times. It didn't happen often but it happened. Same as Gibson, who is not a key defender, yet you somehow believe he is.

He doesn't play as a KPD consistently. Barely at all. Probably as much as Maxwell did. Just because a player plays a certain role (badly) when required to doesn't make them a legit player for that position.

Fantastic. Let's draft one because there are others out there who play the role badly.

Stop crying when I disagree with you. You always end up resorting to personal barbs. It's completely childish.

I think you're confusing Maxwell's role as a 3rd tall as playing CHB of FB.

I'm forced to watch a lot of Hawthorn games and I'll happily disagree.

Again, your petulant extrapolation, not mine.

Seriously, that's all you've got. You think your opinion is more right than mine so I'm wrong, were you stamping your feet while you typed that?

Just point me to the personal barb that you feel is so childish. As I said, try to be right or make it about more than a difference of opinion.

 

[jmac70]

I fart in your general direction.

Ni

 

[sr36]

This thread had a good month or so.

 

[Hardas]

This thread had a good month or so.

Yes, I remember it well.

 

[swoop42]

I think your both right.

Gibson was targeted by the hawks for recruitment partly because he did so well on Franklin when no one else really did.

While I agree he isn't your typical key position player I'm sure he's played on and beat many a key tall during his career, especially earlier on.

Obviously now the next generation of key talls are getting out beyond the 198cm mark so it'll make it harder for those around the height of Gibson to succeed purely as a key defender but there will always be a spot for players of his talent in a side.

At the end of the day talent is what really matters.

Would you prefer we draft a less talented but taller key defender or a more talented shorter key defender?

Remember at pick 28+ you are always going to have to deal with some deficiency thus the reason the player made it that far in the first place.

 

[Lefthanded]

From reading the last page or so I've learnt that the other 17 clubs are all going to draft 203cm+ key defenders so that they are not going to give away too much height to Mason Cox!

 

[Markfs]

i've got a mate who has a complete listing of today's draft. evidently it was worked out on wed night in Gil's office....