Roast St Kilda in no mans land

[Plugger35]

Lyon just inherited a very ordinary list that performed very well in the first half of the season. Now, they just lost Max King for most of the 2023 season and Lyon has nothing like the list he had in 2007. The Saints will be battling it out with The Hawks, Eagles, Roos and Crows at the bottom end of the ladder next year. The Saints hierarchy saved themselves, not the fortunes of the club.

We may only be without King for the first month of the season, he won't be missing for most of the season, it's a blow but it's not a season ending one.

 

[WillHayward]

Ah the great myth about attacking footy. LoL

Hawks 2015 side are the last attack minded side to win a flag averaging more than 100 points a game in attack in the regular season.

Crows in 2017 are the last grand final side at 110 points per game to average over 100 points a game in attack in the regular season.

Demons of 2018 are the last team to make finals at 104.5 points a game to average over 100 points a game in attack in the regular season.

Yep..... That just showed you how dire the scoring has been since the end of 2015

Geelong scored 100+ in 10 games this season.

 

[WillHayward]

Lyon just inherited a very ordinary list that performed very well in the first half of the season. Now, they just lost Max King for most of the 2023 season and Lyon has nothing like the list he had in 2007. The Saints will be battling it out with The Hawks, Eagles, Roos and Crows at the bottom end of the ladder next year. The Saints hierarchy saved themselves, not the fortunes of the club.

I think King is back in May?

 

[Plugger35]

Saints fwd line is the obvious area of weakness.

Yes Max King is a gun but one player isn't enough.

I know Melbourne won a flag without an amazing fwd line but Geelong just had Cameron, Hawkins and Stengle kick 164 goals between them for the season.

We still have the likes of Membrey, Higgins, Butler, Sharman, Wood and Gresham who can kick multiple goals, some other players could step up too.

With King out we need to get a better spread of goal kickers rather than relying on him which could work to our advantage and make us less predictable.

 

[Freomaniac]

Geelong scored 100+ in 10 games this season.

But did they score 2200 points In 22 regular season games?

 

[catstorm]

But did they score 2200 points In 22 regular season games?

No they didn’t.

But your making out they aren’t an offensive team because they averaged 99 points instead of 100 over the course of 25 games.

Can you honestly sit there and say because they didn’t score 4 more goals across an entire season they are a defensive team?

 

[The Kings Ransom]

We still have the likes of Membrey, Higgins, Butler, Sharman, Wood and Gresham who can kick multiple goals, some other players could step up too.

With King out we need to get a better spread of goal kickers rather than relying on him which could work to our advantage and make us less predictable.

Personally I think when you’ve got relatively good crumbers like Higgins, butler, Gresham the predictability and the fact that king either marks it or ball comes to ground helps them a lot.

Defenders are going to feel much more confident going for intercept marks against membrey, Sharman and wood as you’ve noted.

One of the reasons that casboult was so valuable for the suns in 22 was this drive to crash pack and bring ball to ground. Think you need to employ someone in this role.

 

[lewdogs]

Lyon just inherited a very ordinary list that performed very well in the first half of the season. Now, they just lost Max King for most of the 2023 season and Lyon has nothing like the list he had in 2007. The Saints will be battling it out with The Hawks, Eagles, Roos and Crows at the bottom end of the ladder next year. The Saints hierarchy saved themselves, not the fortunes of the club.

I'm not going to bother defending the club over the list and what not but the statement that we've lost Max King for most of the season is frankly not true. He'll miss the first part of the season not most of the season.

 

[austinnn]

I still think Richardson was really unlucky with his list. He'd have died of shock if he had a draft like last years. Instead we had star players retiring early and everyone from the draft turning to crap.

In my mind Richardson probably was better than Ratten though we didn't think so at the time.

Both Richo & Ratts were pretty bad - although not totally useless - and were probably better off remaining as assistant coaches.

Neither had the pedigree that the top coaches have and although Ratten had experience at the very top, we saw all the shortcomings which the Carlton football club discovered when they knifed him.

You're certainly right about Richo being unlucky to arrive there when Pelchen then Elshaug were destroying the list, but Richo still had plenty to work with and couldn't once make finals.

Overall the player development at St Kilda over the last 10 years was lamentable and spoke to the erosion of standards at the club since the Lyon and Thomas eras.

Saints fans like us will hope those standards will be swiftly returning.

 

[VinnieB]

Did you find it funny when we beat you this year with Ratten coaching us? Just imagine what we could do with Ross Lyon coaching us.

Probably lose

 

[Freomaniac]

Both Richo & Ratts were pretty bad - although not totally useless - and were probably better off remaining as assistant coaches.

Neither had the pedigree that the top coaches have and although Ratten had experience at the very top, we saw all the shortcomings which the Carlton football club discovered when they knifed him.

You're certainly right about Richo being unlucky to arrive there when Pelchen then Elshaug were destroying the list, but Richo still had plenty to work with and couldn't once make finals.

Overall the player development at St Kilda over the last 10 years was lamentable and spoke to the erosion of standards at the club since the Lyon and Thomas eras.

Saints fans like us will hope those standards will be swiftly returning.

Alan Richardson and Brett Ratten were bad to a degree. But Neither were Mark Neeld calibre bad.

As for Richardson, saints narrowly missed out on finals in 2016-7.

Ratten got you guys to a finals win in 2020.

Young guys like Max King saw a finals win early.

Now you know why I was happy Freo won a final in 2022. We had 7 guys aged 21 or under with a finals win for the 1st time in their careers

 

[db26]

Both Richo & Ratts were pretty bad - although not totally useless - and were probably better off remaining as assistant coaches.

Neither had the pedigree that the top coaches have and although Ratten had experience at the very top, we saw all the shortcomings which the Carlton football club discovered when they knifed him.

You're certainly right about Richo being unlucky to arrive there when Pelchen then Elshaug were destroying the list, but Richo still had plenty to work with and couldn't once make finals.

Overall the player development at St Kilda over the last 10 years was lamentable and spoke to the erosion of standards at the club since the Lyon and Thomas eras.

Saints fans like us will hope those standards will be swiftly returning.

I don't agree with the player development in the Lyon era his a great match day coach, but he has always been poor in development maybe now, time out, he has changed that was Thomas all good work.

 

[master bate]

Both Richo & Ratts were pretty bad - although not totally useless - and were probably better off remaining as assistant coaches.

Neither had the pedigree that the top coaches have and although Ratten had experience at the very top, we saw all the shortcomings which the Carlton football club discovered when they knifed him.

You're certainly right about Richo being unlucky to arrive there when Pelchen then Elshaug were destroying the list, but Richo still had plenty to work with and couldn't once make finals.

Overall the player development at St Kilda over the last 10 years was lamentable and spoke to the erosion of standards at the club since the Lyon and Thomas eras.

Saints fans like us will hope those standards will be swiftly returning.

Plenty to work with?

Richo got a list that was incredibly ordinary and still heading backwards, top picks he couldn't do much with and the usual St Kilda injury run. He got as bad a deal as any coach has recently, on par with the lists inherited at Melbourne, Brisbane, Essendon etc.

Winning 12 and 11 games in 16/17 was a seriously good coaching effort. The problem was it was built on terrible foundations so it didn't go anywhere.

Look at the top 10 B+F's:
Trevor Barker Award — Top 10 places
1. Jack Steven (172 votes)
2. Jarryn Geary (157)
3. Nick Riewoldt (153)
4. Leigh Montagna (127)
5. Jack Newnes (125)
6. Seb Ross (122)
7. Maverick Weller (117)
8. Tom Hickey (102)
9. Tim Membrey (99)

2017 Trevor Barker Award Top 10
1. Seb Ross 159 votes
2. Dylan Roberton 124 votes
3. Jarryn Geary 121 votes
4. Jake Carlisle 119 votes
5. Jack Billings 110 votes
6. Jack Steven 108 votes
7. Jimmy Webster 88 votes
8. Jack Newnes 83
9. Jade Gresham 81 votes
10. Nathan Brown 78 votes

Apart from Billings and Gresham there's no one on those lists who should be performing better and certainly no one who would've carried a side to more success over the years that came after that. Complete house of cards.

 

[master bate]

Can the Saints get out of no mans land? Immediately, probably not, within 2-3 years, sure.


Backline: Yes

Howard's solid and could get even better with more coaching. Wilkie's a gun. And the Saints have multiple options for skill at half back with Sinclair, Clark or moving someone like Nas WM to a backline kicker - he'd be great there. Plus they have enough depth options for stoppers and 3rd talls.

Midfield: Yes.

Obviously you'd love a bigger star to lead things, but Steele is legit, Crouch I truly believe can go back to his best if motivated. Gresham might not be top tier but he should be a really solid mid/forward match up problem. But the biggest change is the Windhager/Owens draft can be transformational in bringing in bid body athletes that play the right way. Surround that with Hill and Nas WM and they have run. Then Phillipou can be the icing on the cake and given time.

Forwards: Yes, eventually

King out is an opportunity to be less one dimensional. I think they can find other talls to compete in the air and they take advantage of guys like Billings, Gresham and Higgins being really smart forwards. They probably need to bring someone in to support Max anyway so at least they'll have a proper look at alternatives now. If there's another weakness short term I don't think Higgins, Billings and Gresham are best used as defensive forwards which puts a lot of pressure on Butler to do most of that. Hotton might be recruited to do just that but it's not usually a job for young mids. I'm surprised they didn't take anyone in the draft.

 

[Freomaniac]

It is blatantly obvious that the AFL with their changing of rules and the way that they’re talking about the future of the game want offensive football and scoring.
What happened 5 or even 3 years ago is utterly redundant with the rules we have now and 6-6-6.

What's your opinion about the 6-6-6 rule?

Do you believe the Richmond's fans view it was brought in to stop Richmonds dominance?

Or do you believe the 666 rule came in to Counter against Ross Lyons defensive tactics?

Or do you have your own reason why the 666 rule was brought in?

 

[Freomaniac]

I don't agree with the player development in the Lyon era his a great match day coach, but he has always been poor in development maybe now, time out, he has changed that was Thomas all good work.

Again.... Your view is incorrect.

When Freo made that 2013 grand final, Lachie Neale and Cam Sutcliffe was in that side. Both were 2nd year players in that 2011 draft.

Lachie Neale won a Brownlow medal but started his career under ross Lyon.

 

[Freomaniac]

No they didn’t.

But your making out they aren’t an offensive team because they averaged 99 points instead of 100 over the course of 25 games.

Can you honestly sit there and say because they didn’t score 4 more goals across an entire season they are a defensive team?

Well people called Ross Lyons saints side a defensive side in 2009 when they made the grand final.

They scored 2197 points in 22 regular season games

 

[catstorm]

Well people called Ross Lyons saints side a defensive side in 2009 when they made the grand final.

They scored 2917 points in 22 regular season games

Ahhhh no they didn't, not even ****ing close.

 

[aussierulesrules]

Can the Saints get out of no mans land? Immediately, probably not, within 2-3 years, sure.


Backline: Yes

Howard's solid and could get even better with more coaching. Wilkie's a gun. And the Saints have multiple options for skill at half back with Sinclair, Clark or moving someone like Nas WM to a backline kicker - he'd be great there. Plus they have enough depth options for stoppers and 3rd talls.

Midfield: Yes.

Obviously you'd love a bigger star to lead things, but Steele is legit, Crouch I truly believe can go back to his best if motivated. Gresham might not be top tier but he should be a really solid mid/forward match up problem. But the biggest change is the Windhager/Owens draft can be transformational in bringing in bid body athletes that play the right way. Surround that with Hill and Nas WM and they have run. Then Phillipou can be the icing on the cake and given time.

Forwards: Yes, eventually

King out is an opportunity to be less one dimensional. I think they can find other talls to compete in the air and they take advantage of guys like Billings, Gresham and Higgins being really smart forwards. They probably need to bring someone in to support Max anyway so at least they'll have a proper look at alternatives now. If there's another weakness short term I don't think Higgins, Billings and Gresham are best used as defensive forwards which puts a lot of pressure on Butler to do most of that. Hotton might be recruited to do just that but it's not usually a job for young mids. I'm surprised they didn't take anyone in the draft.

A lot of the fortunes of the club lie in the guys taken in the first round of their respective drafts, who as yet haven’t properly and fully “broken out” yet.

King
Gresham (injury has killed his last 3 yrs)
Clark
Higgins
Coffield
Jones

And then the other young ones who likewise haven’t “broken out” or played yet, in Windhager, Wangmil, Owens, Paton, Bytel, Sharman, Phillipou, Keeler, Hotton, Heath.

Then a big wildcard is Marshall, who came 2nd in the B&F at 24yo, playing no.1 ruck all year, but who has played mainly forward in the 3 years Ryder was there, and he’s vastly more impactful from an individual POV when playing no.1 ruck.

He also carried a foot injury all 2021 season and was hobbling around a lot this year as well, so he possibly hasn’t played injury-free since 2020.

So there’s loads of talent there, but injury and/or poor coaching has seen a lot of it unrealised, so it will be fascinating to see if Ross, Harvey, Hayes, Enright, Goddard and co are able to do a better job of extracting it than Ratts and co. did, and if the return of Misson helps keep guys out on the park more.

Clearly a big part of the reason Ratts is gone is that there were so many guys (like the first 6 I named there, plus others like Billings and Hill) who he just didn’t get the best out of on a regular basis, so whether the current coaching group are able to will decide whether we can contend again soon, or if we need to go slash-and-burn rebuild.

 

[aussierulesrules]

Can the Saints get out of no mans land? Immediately, probably not, within 2-3 years, sure.


Backline: Yes

Howard's solid and could get even better with more coaching. Wilkie's a gun. And the Saints have multiple options for skill at half back with Sinclair, Clark or moving someone like Nas WM to a backline kicker - he'd be great there. Plus they have enough depth options for stoppers and 3rd talls.

Midfield: Yes.

Obviously you'd love a bigger star to lead things, but Steele is legit, Crouch I truly believe can go back to his best if motivated. Gresham might not be top tier but he should be a really solid mid/forward match up problem. But the biggest change is the Windhager/Owens draft can be transformational in bringing in bid body athletes that play the right way. Surround that with Hill and Nas WM and they have run. Then Phillipou can be the icing on the cake and given time.

Forwards: Yes, eventually

King out is an opportunity to be less one dimensional. I think they can find other talls to compete in the air and they take advantage of guys like Billings, Gresham and Higgins being really smart forwards. They probably need to bring someone in to support Max anyway so at least they'll have a proper look at alternatives now. If there's another weakness short term I don't think Higgins, Billings and Gresham are best used as defensive forwards which puts a lot of pressure on Butler to do most of that. Hotton might be recruited to do just that but it's not usually a job for young mids. I'm surprised they didn't take anyone in the draft.

Re a couple of your other points, I reckon Dan Mackenzie would be absolutely ideally suited to the Ryan Clark role of running with the Saads and Daicos’ of the AFL, in a defensive HF role.

He’s a super-disciplined and team-oriented running machine, who is also extremely quick, and he’s got a huge leap and great hands as well, so could be a semi-marking threat up there too.

We also used Mitch Owens in a defensive type role up forward at times last season, as he’s a tackling animal, who at 191cm is also very strong overhead.

Finally, losing Nick Coffield was a big blow to our backline last season, as he came 5th in our B&F at just 20yo, in 2020 (taking the 2nd-most marks in the comp for H&A), and every training report we got last preseason was that he was absolutely killing it in match sims, after hiring a personal running coach to get super-fit and so-on.

Then on the day he did his knee Josh Gabelich said he interviewed Ratten a few days earlier and he was “adamant” that Coffield was going to be the guy that would have a breakout year for us.

He’s got all the tools to be one of those “backline generals” and has two of the best in Enright and Goddard to teach him how to do it.

 

[db26]

Again.... Your view is incorrect.

When Freo made that 2013 grand final, Lachie Neale and Cam Sutcliffe was in that side. Both were 2nd year players in that 2011 draft.

Lachie Neale won a Brownlow medal but started his career under ross Lyon.

What 2 players only that's very poor in my book if you think that's passable.

 

[Prince Imperial]

Well people called Ross Lyons saints side a defensive side in 2009 when they made the grand final.

They scored 2917 points in 22 regular season games

2197 actually which was fourth in the League. They were brilliant defensively conceding just 1411 points - Collingwood was next with 1778 points to put that in perspective.

 

[Freomaniac]

Ahhhh no they didn't, not even ******* close.

Sorry had to edit that 2197 points or 3 points less than 100 points a game

 

[WillHayward]

We still have the likes of Membrey, Higgins, Butler, Sharman, Wood and Gresham who can kick multiple goals, some other players could step up too.

With King out we need to get a better spread of goal kickers rather than relying on him which could work to our advantage and make us less predictable.

You need to find a second quality tall fwd capable of a 40 goal season.

Simple as that.

Those names you mentioned just arent that good .

 

[SaintsSeptember]

You need to find a second quality tall fwd capable of a 40 goal season.

Simple as that.

Those names you mentioned just arent that good .

Membrey has done it several times, tends to play deeper when we had King with Ratten coaching.
Sharman hasn't played a full season yet.