Roast St Kilda in no mans land

[SaintsSeptember]

As a FA, and with his injury history, probably nothing.
If he wants out, best bet for the Saints is to take the offered compo and move on …

And if he wants to fly to never never land, and has the ability, he should.

 

[aussierulesrules]

Things can turn very quickly. A lot of their 'stars' have been down on form but if they all click they can still challenge for finals.

And it’s not like we’re coming from a low base. Three years ago we finished 5th, and in the two years since we’ve been smashed by injury, had the hardest draw each year, and still only missed the finals by 1 win each time.

If Ross can extract better consistency from guys like Hill (who’s finally lost the car tyre around his waist), and we have guys like Marshall, Gresham, Jones, Clark, Higgins and Billings injury-free for a change, it’s not hard to see where the improvement could come from.

Not to mention the fact that a huge chunk of our list’s best footy is likely to be ahead of them.

Unfortunately it looks like we’re coming from a long way back from an injury POV again though, so if that continues it will make it very hard for us to progress.

 

[disco_cowboy]

And it’s not like we’re coming from a low base. Three years ago we finished 5th, and in the two years since we’ve been smashed by injury, had the hardest draw each year, and still only missed the finals by 1 win each time.

If Ross can extract better consistency from guys like Hill (who’s finally lost the car tyre around his waist), and we have guys like Marshall, Gresham, Jones, Clark, Higgins and Billings injury-free for a change, it’s not hard to see where the improvement could come from.

Not to mention the fact that a huge chunk of our list’s best footy is likely to be ahead of them.

Unfortunately it looks like we’re coming from a long way back from an injury POV again though, so if that continues it will make it very hard for us to progress.

a lot of ifs there

list hasn't greatly improved since 2020

Reckon saints will be competitive but not dominate

essentially in no mans land

 

[lewdogs]

a lot of ifs there

list hasn't greatly improved since 2020

Reckon saints will be competitive but not dominate

essentially in no mans land

So unless you dominate the competition you're in no mans land?

 

[disco_cowboy]

So unless you dominate the competition you're in no mans land?

yes, exactly

 

[phantom13]

Most saints fans couldn’t give a rats ass about ladder position this year, it’s a development year for Ross and co to implement and assess. Also why most of us look at a decimated forward line and shrug. Provided we don’t slide back too far it honestly doesn’t matter where we finish to me.

If we see improvement in gameplay and style, a proper brand and structure and then list management post season that enhances those things I will be absolutely thrilled and this is exactly to disco_cowboy point.

We finish 6th this year and win one final it might signal a change but it’s also not success.

 

[aussierulesrules]

a lot of ifs there

list hasn't greatly improved since 2020

Reckon saints will be competitive but not dominate

essentially in no mans land

I would argue our list has in fact greatly improved since 2020.

Since that season we’ve added

Phillipou
Windhager
Wanganeen-Milera
Higgins
Crouch
Owens
Hayes
Sharman
Wood
Stocker
Heath
Hotton
Van Es
Keeler

and no longer have the likes of

Abbott
Joyce
Marsh
Austin
Phillips
Clavarino
Langlands
Alabaskis
Bell
Mayo
Brown
Lonie
Parker
Hannebery
Roberton (who’d hardly played in yrs)
Dunstan
Kent
Savage

So I have no doubt that our list is in a much better position now than it was then, and has very significant upside.

A LOT more than it had then.

And a big part of the reason for that is that a number of the young guys we had on our list back then have had significant injuries stall their development since. Which is a big part of the reason we’ve stalled since 2020. So they still have levels they can go up.

In particular Marshall (played injured for most, if not all of the last two years, with plantar fasciitis), Clark (landed in hospital 3 times in 6 games, after an excellent start to 2021), and Coffield (ACL just when he looked set to explode).

So with the best still likely to be ahead of guys like that (and King, Higgins, Bytel) plus all those 12+ other young ones we’ve added since, I don’t see any anyone could argue that there isn’t very significant upside to this group. All things being equal.

And that is to a group that finished just 1 win outside the finals the last two seasons. Off the most difficult draw each time.

Also worth noting that we have the equal-lowest number of “over 30’s” on our list of any team, with just 1. And that’s Campbell, who’s likely to just be there as injury backup.

 

[disco_cowboy]

I would argue our list has in fact greatly improved since 2020.

Since that season we’ve added

Phillipou
Windhager
Wanganeen-Milera
Higgins
Crouch
Owens
Hayes
Sharman
Wood
Stocker
Heath
Hotton
Van Es
Keeler

and no longer have the likes of

Abbott
Joyce
Marsh
Austin
Phillips
Clavarino
Langlands
Alabaskis
Bell
Mayo
Brown
Lonie
Parker
Hannebery
Roberton (who’d hardly played in yrs)
Dunstan
Kent
Savage

So I have no doubt that our list is in a much better position now than it was then, and has very significant upside.

A LOT more than it had then.

And a big part of the reason for that is that a number of the young guys we had on our list back then have had significant injuries stall their development since. Which is a big part of the reason we’ve stalled since 2020. So they still have levels they can go up.

In particular Marshall (played injured for most, if not all of the last two years, with plantar fasciitis), Clark (landed in hospital 3 times in 6 games, after an excellent start to 2021), and Coffield (ACL just when he looked set to explode).

So with the best still likely to be ahead of guys like that (and King, Higgins, Bytel) plus all those 12+ other young ones we’ve added since, I don’t see any anyone could argue that there isn’t very significant upside to this group. All things being equal.

And that is to a group that finished just 1 win outside the finals the last two seasons. Off the most difficult draw each time.

Also worth noting that we have the equal-lowest number of “over 30’s” on our list of any team, with just 1. And that’s Campbell, who’s likely to just be there as injury backup.

View attachment 1612415

My opinion is that those list changes don’t suddenly make you a top 4 team, I think there are still question marks around your midfield and defence.

Assuming it all comes together this year with injuries and form I have you guys at 6th at best and can’t imagine you dominating teams in the top 8.

 

[phantom13]

My opinion is that those list changes don’t suddenly make you a top 4 team, I think there are still question marks around your midfield and defence.

Assuming it all comes together this year with injuries and form I have you guys at 6th at best and can’t imagine you dominating teams in the top 8.

Midfield sure.

Defence is our most settled line.

Sinclair is genuinely AA and Howard and Wilkie wouldn’t be far off (Wilkie might have been squad last year).

Throw in Coffield back from an ACL and Battle who had the least goals kicked by a direct opponent all year and our backline stacks up pretty well.

Our forward line and reliance on King plus a one paced same same midfield are our issues.

 

[aussierulesrules]

My opinion is that those list changes don’t suddenly make you a top 4 team, I think there are still question marks around your midfield and defence.

Assuming it all comes together this year with injuries and form I have you guys at 6th at best and can’t imagine you dominating teams in the top 8.

I’m not suggesting that it suddenly makes us a top 4 team, but just refuting your suggestion that our list isn’t greatly improved on 2020, when we did happen to finish 5th. We’ve cleared a lot of “dead wood” since then, and lost a number of very injury-prone old guys.

That year we fielded on average the 3rd youngest teams each week, so the bulk of that group is still there, and obviously they’ve now had a couple more seasons playing together, while the young ones who were 21yo or younger then (King, Clark, Coffield, Paton and Bytel, plus the since added Higgins and Sharman) are now entering their “breakout year ages”, where big steps forward can and regularly do take place.

It looks like we’ve drafted terrifically well the last two years, but that group are probably a year or two off making much of a difference, so I agree we’d need a lot to go right for us to take a significant step forward this year.

Especially without King and Hayes for maybe the first month and having had so few of the group in full training this preseason.

While some teams are having 22 v 22 type intra-clubs, we didn’t even have one, and have been having 13 v 13 type match sims! Far from ideal.

 

[projectv]

Most saints fans couldn’t give a rats ass about ladder position this year, it’s a development year for Ross and co to implement and assess. Also why most of us look at a decimated forward line and shrug. Provided we don’t slide back too far it honestly doesn’t matter where we finish to me.

If we see improvement in gameplay and style, a proper brand and structure and then list management post season that enhances those things I will be absolutely thrilled and this is exactly to disco_cowboy point.

We finish 6th this year and win one final it might signal a change but it’s also not success.

Pretty much this. 2023 is a free hit for Ross Lyon and it's exciting to see how the team changes, and another year to hit the draft will do us some good.

 

[Crusty Demon]

Embarrassing that fans are saying they don't give a rats toss where they finish this season. Finals two years ago finishing a very promising top 6. Ross the Boss back in charge! Arguably the best forward in the game. The p*** poor responses from Saints fans in here is bloody depressing. Get up and about ya muppets! Tell everyone else to GAGF and that you're gonna finish top 4! Enough with the realist BS. Back your club in ya gronks

 

[phantom13]

Embarrassing that fans are saying they don't give a rats toss where they finish this season. Finals two years ago finishing a very promising top 6. Ross the Boss back in charge! Arguably the best forward in the game. The p*** poor responses from Saints fans in here is bloody depressing. Get up and about ya muppets! Tell everyone else to GAGF and that you're gonna finish top 4! Enough with the realist BS. Back your club in ya gronks

We’ve been waiting nearly 60 years and Rossco is fresh as a daisy. You’ll find very few optimistic saints fans but we’re more hopeful now than we’ve been in a fair while.

2023 just isn’t it.

 

[Red Bull]

Embarrassing that fans are saying they don't give a rats toss where they finish this season. Finals two years ago finishing a very promising top 6. Ross the Boss back in charge! Arguably the best forward in the game. The p*** poor responses from Saints fans in here is bloody depressing. Get up and about ya muppets! Tell everyone else to GAGF and that you're gonna finish top 4! Enough with the realist BS. Back your club in ya gronks

If there’s any fans suffering from battle fatigue it’s gotta be saints fans.
They’ve earnt the right to erect the safety net i reckon …

 

[Crusty Demon]

If there’s any fans suffering from battle fatigue it’s gotta be saints fans.
They’ve earnt the right to erect the safety net i reckon …

Raising the white flag before the season starts is pretty pathetic. Talking like a bottom 4 side. They aren't North levels of bad. Even North fans are more up and about. Always a team or two that surprises every season. Why not the Saints?

 

[Red Bull]

Raising the white flag before the season starts is pretty pathetic. Talking like a bottom 4 side. They aren't North levels of bad. Even North fans are more up and about. Always a team or two that surprises every season. Why not the Saints?

Would you have your hard earned on the Saints ?

 

[Crusty Demon]

Would you have your hard earned on the Saints ?

What are they paying to make finals? $3.50/$4? Pretty decent odds tbh. Always a couple of teams surprise. Defensive coach. They'll be much harder to score against. King comes back and runs hot, then they have enough pieces to trouble the 8 for sure. Thought they'd be up and about after securing Ross the Boss, but all i hear now is doom and gloom.

 

[phantom13]

What are they paying to make finals? $3.50/$4? Pretty decent odds tbh. Always a couple of teams surprise. Defensive coach. They'll be much harder to score against. King comes back and runs hot, then they have enough pieces to trouble the 8 for sure. Thought they'd be up and about after securing Ross the Boss, but all i hear now is doom and gloom.

I’ve seen very very few saying we can’t make finals though. We certainly can problem is we’d be almost no chance to win a flag so if we’re not winning the flag then what’s the point of making finals.

We’re saying (and I’m loathed to speak for the collective here) who cares what happens this year provided we don’t seriously regress. Let Ross get his feet under the desk, establish his gameplan, assess the list and build something bigger for 24 and beyond.

It’s not waving the white flag it’s being realistically hopeful.

 

[disco_cowboy]

Midfield sure.

Defence is our most settled line.

Sinclair is genuinely AA and Howard and Wilkie wouldn’t be far off (Wilkie might have been squad last year).

Throw in Coffield back from an ACL and Battle who had the least goals kicked by a direct opponent all year and our backline stacks up pretty well.

Our forward line and reliance on King plus a one paced same same midfield are our issues.

Sinclair
Howard and Wilkie, Battle - Good, not great.
Coffield - Jury is out

IMO - Defence still sits behind the likes or Richmond, Geelong, Melbourne, Brisbane, Carlton, Collingwood, Freo, Sydney and maybe even WC.

 

[phantom13]

Sinclair
Howard and Wilkie, Battle - Good, not great.
Coffield - Jury is out

IMO - Defence still sits behind the likes or Richmond, Geelong, Melbourne, Brisbane, Carlton, Collingwood, Freo, Sydney and maybe even WC.

In your opinion I’m sure you could justify just about anything.

There’s not really a metric to help here that can’t be handwaved away but we conceded fewer points than Richmond, Brisbane and collingwood from your list (in spite of losing more games than all of them) and Carlton conceded one less point than us.

I’m gonna say saints supporters probably have a better idea of what our team can and can’t do from watching them every week and most of us would tell you our defence isn’t our issue.

 

[VinnieB]

West Coast strolled it in that day because of their opposition. Neither had matchwinners and both were trying as hard as they could to snatch the game off each other. A lucky year for the Coasters, but sometimes you get that sort of opponent on the day.

Tigers lucky they avoided the Pies in 2019 & 2020 finals series. Evidently melted when they were up against the Pies in a finals atmosphere.

 

[disco_cowboy]

In your opinion I’m sure you could justify just about anything.

There’s not really a metric to help here that can’t be handwaved away but we conceded fewer points than Richmond, Brisbane and collingwood from your list (in spite of losing more games than all of them) and Carlton conceded one less point than us.

I’m gonna say saints supporters probably have a better idea of what our team can and can’t do from watching them every week and most of us would tell you our defence isn’t our issue.

I should add the caveat that on reflection, I do think the saints back six is decent.

My main concern is the amount of mature age draft picks, free agents and avg/abv avg trades that have walked through the door in the last 3-4 years.

Saints clearly have an absolute beast in King, I just think they need 3-4 more elite level, game changing players.

Phillipou might be that - but I'm not sure where you pick up any more.

 

[phantom13]

I should add the caveat that on reflection, I do think the saints back six is decent.

My main concern is the amount of mature age draft picks, free agents and avg/abv avg trades that have walked through the door in the last 3-4 years.

Saints clearly have an absolute beast in King, I just think they need 3-4 more elite level, game changing players.

Phillipou might be that - but I'm not sure where you pick up any more.

I mean, every team would love 3-4 more elite level players.

Theoretically Gresham, King, Pou, Clark, Coff, Butler, Windhager and Owens “could” all be that but it’s doubtful they all spring.

 

[Mat Mann]

I should add the caveat that on reflection, I do think the saints back six is decent.

My main concern is the amount of mature age draft picks, free agents and avg/abv avg trades that have walked through the door in the last 3-4 years.

Saints clearly have an absolute beast in King, I just think they need 3-4 more elite level, game changing players.

Phillipou might be that - but I'm not sure where you pick up any more.

I'd love for you to name those average players that came through the doors in the last 3-4 years

 

[Kreuuuzeurns]

I'd love for you to name those average players that came through the doors in the last 3-4 years

Zain Cordy
Liam Stocker
Dan Butler
Dean Kent
Jarrod Lienert
Tom Campbell
Mason Wood
Dan Hannebery
James Frawley
Shaun McKernan