Roast St Kilda in no mans land

[phantom13]

Yep.

I said it years ago when Taranto and Hopper went to the Tigers for under what was being reported. The Saints just dont have a point of difference they can sell to players.

If we are at the mercy of mercenaries or guys who are only coming for the biggest coin, then we don't have room to build a proper team and we'll be stuck paying 'saviors' again and again.

This is an incredibly pessimistic view of it.

Were in the mire with the smaller clubs sure and were going to have to offer more money than the bigger clubs as well but theres a whole stack of stuff weve gotta make work.

Be competitive, target players we can offer something their current club cant (LDU better, Brayshaw come home), pay more (how much more depends on a bunch of stuff).

Ultimately the cash will be the point of difference but 150 or 200k a year isnt much until you make that offer 8+ years, then its ****ing heaps.

 

[L_W_P]

This is an incredibly pessimistic view of it.

Were in the mire with the smaller clubs sure and were going to have to offer more money than the bigger clubs as well but theres a whole stack of stuff weve gotta make work.

Be competitive, target players we can offer something their current club cant (LDU better, Brayshaw come home), pay more (how much more depends on a bunch of stuff).

Ultimately the cash will be the point of difference but 150 or 200k a year isnt much until you make that offer 8+ years, then its ****ing heaps.

It's a difference when players aren't choosing teams based on cash.

We were rumored to have offered both Taranto and Hopper close to $1mil a year but they go to the Tigers for less because the lure of big games, Dimma, Finals etc

We played some games with Battle but he took a lower offer from the Hawks. Yes, they're looking like being in a better spot than us right now but to lose a player for LESS money is the exact antithesis of what Free Angency was designed to do.

The AFL expected that clubs would max out their caps. That players would want to get paid and would go to lesser teams for better deals but it hasn't quite worked out that way.

Players are instead opting to take less money for a better chance at success or a better playing environment eg crowds, marquee games etc.

The list build is, I think, coming along quite nicely. Now it's up to the board to actually do something about the club's standing within the league if we want to have any real chance at sustained success.

 

[phantom13]

Utter rubbish.

I'm telling you that Saints did not 'dangle' Battle, and were not happy he left, as evidenced by the constant attmepts to make him stay, the extra money offered to him and his invite to the B&F being torn up.


I just find it incredibly amusing that throughout the year when I visited the Battle thread on the Drafts and Trading boards it was full of Saints fans saying that he was staying, but now I've got you in here claiming that all the Saints knew from 2023 that he "would be dangled" for FA compo...and now that they were happy for him to go....they just didn't want him at the B&F for a "host of reasons".

Mate, the bolded is doing EXACTLY what i just said youre doing, telling me that you know more about the negotations and years worth of behind the scenes. Its literally doing what youre calling utter rubbish.

On the second bolded, nope, you claim i do strawmans.

Ill quote myself here.

Again mate, never said we were happy he left but we were VERY happy with the compo. Both things can be true at once, the point ive stressed over and over and over was that we had a foot in each camp.

Ill make this as simple as possible for you.

The clubs list management team discussed in late 23 players who may be of interest to other clubs from an FA POV. Battle was identified as such.

We made an offer to Josh early in the year and he was going to resign after round 2 but supposedly his manager told him we had very quietly discussed him as an FA target to other clubs and Josh wasnt thrilled and decided to hold off on signing (to be fair that is speculation and only Josh could confirm it but it aligns with alot of other info).

We didnt change our offer to him, at all, all year, if we were so desperate to re sign him we probably would have id reckon.

You tabled your offer and from all accounts he accepted it pretty quickly (it was better than ours)

We re upped the offer post season because we shit ourselves your offer wouldnt trigger band 1 compo, we wanted to either retain him OR get band 1 (with band 1 at that point being the slight preference).

He stuck with your offer (which is a testament to Joshs character, hes a great and loyal guy).

We stupidly pulled the BnF invite not long after (partially because he left but also for other reasons). EDIT - this is worded poorly. Obviously because he left but not because we were shitty about it.

Thats literally what happened, backed by multiple saints posters, the timeline and the outcome.

 

[phantom13]

It's a difference when players aren't choosing teams based on cash.

We were rumored to have offered both Taranto and Hopper close to $1mil a year but they go to the Tigers for less because the lure of big games, Dimma, Finals etc

We played some games with Battle but he took a lower offer from the Hawks. Yes, they're looking like being in a better spot than us right now but to lose a player for LESS money is the exact antithesis of what Free Angency was designed to do.

The AFL expected that clubs would max out their caps. That players would want to get paid and would go to lesser teams for better deals but it hasn't quite worked out that way.

Players are instead opting to take less money for a better chance at success or a better playing environment eg crowds, marquee games etc.

The list build is, I think, coming along quite nicely. Now it's up to the board to actually do something about the club's standing within the league if we want to have any real chance at sustained success.

Yeh thats fair, i mean if players prioritize big game, big club etc. Then were pushing shit up hill to pay them enough to not prioritize that. If the like of Carlton and Collingwood are gonna be a million less over 5 years and were looking pretty competitive with a great off field team and good culture were in the hunt.

Bolded is bang on to me, couldnt agree more.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

Mate, the bolded is doing EXACTLY what i just said youre doing, telling me that you know more about the negotations and years worth of behind the scenes. Its literally doing what youre calling utter rubbish.

On the second bolded, nope, you claim i do strawmans.

Ill quote myself here.


Ill make this as simple as possible for you.

The clubs list management team discussed in late 23 players who may be of interest to other clubs from an FA POV. Battle was identified as such.

We made an offer to Josh early in the year and he was going to resign after round 2 but supposedly his manager told him we had very quietly discussed him as an FA target to other clubs and Josh wasnt thrilled and decided to hold off on signing (to be fair that is speculation and only Josh could confirm it but it aligns with alot of other info).

We didnt change our offer to him, at all, all year, if we were so desperate to re sign him we probably would have id reckon.

You tabled your offer and from all accounts he accepted it pretty quickly (it was better than ours)

We re upped the offer post season because we shit ourselves your offer wouldnt trigger band 1 compo, we wanted to either retain him OR get band 1 (with band 1 at that point being the slight preference).

He stuck with your offer (which is a testament to Joshs character, hes a great and loyal guy).

We stupidly pulled the BnF invite not long after (partially because he left but also for other reasons). EDIT - this is worded poorly. Obviously because he left but not because we were shitty about it.

Thats literally what happened, backed by multiple saints posters, the timeline and the outcome.

Nice Saints spin you’ve got there.
No really, you can puff your chest out all you want and claim I’m telling you that I know more about the Saints inner workings when I never have said that, but the fact is that on all available evidence the story still falls down when the player that you “identified” on your list could get you compo, then did decide to leave and the subsequent response from the club who were ‘totally ok with him leaving’, was to remove his invite to the B&F and have reports turn up in the media declaring that players were unhappy with him leaving after they thought he was staying.

I don’t care for you to respond and give me another Bigfooty Saints board story of how they were always ok with him leaving, because as much as I know each board has posters with some link to their club the evidence of player unrest and the B&F invite being removed tells a completely different story.

 

[phantom13]

Nice Saints spin you’ve got there.
No really, you can puff your chest out all you want and claim I’m telling you that I know more about the Saints inner workings when I never have said that, but the fact is that on all available evidence the story still falls down when the player that you “identified” on your list could get you compo, then did decide to leave and the subsequent response from the club who were ‘totally ok with him leaving’, was to remove his invite to the B&F and have reports turn up in the media declaring that players were unhappy with him leaving after they thought he was staying.

I don’t care for you to respond and give me another Bigfooty Saints board story of how they were always ok with him leaving, because as much as I know each board has posters with some link to their club the evidence of player unrest and the B&F invite being removed tells a completely different story.

Sure. Carry on. Ill just check one thing?

totally ok with him leaving

Youve quoted this, did i say it? Because i dont think i did?

 

[Elixuh]

Yep.

I said it years ago when Taranto and Hopper went to the Tigers for under what was being reported. The Saints just dont have a point of difference they can sell to players.

If we are at the mercy of mercenaries or guys who are only coming for the biggest coin, then we don't have room to build a proper team and we'll be stuck paying 'saviors' again and again.

List Mgmt. - 2022 Trade Thread - Part II

They were in rebuild since and look like they are ready to climb, we've got tired and gone for a lie down. Sydney and Geelong have also rebuilt without having to spend years down.How have wee been in rebuild since??? On SM-F711B using BigFooty.com mobile app

www.bigfooty.com

The point of difference you can build is what north, lions and Carlton (for example) have done which is building a list from the draft with highly marketable players who are also guns and who can create excitement + vision of a huge runway to launch up the ladder. Saints current list build doesn’t have that.

It's a difference when players aren't choosing teams based on cash.

We were rumored to have offered both Taranto and Hopper close to $1mil a year but they go to the Tigers for less because the lure of big games, Dimma, Finals etc

We played some games with Battle but he took a lower offer from the Hawks. Yes, they're looking like being in a better spot than us right now but to lose a player for LESS money is the exact antithesis of what Free Angency was designed to do.

The AFL expected that clubs would max out their caps. That players would want to get paid and would go to lesser teams for better deals but it hasn't quite worked out that way.

Players are instead opting to take less money for a better chance at success or a better playing environment eg crowds, marquee games etc.

The list build is, I think, coming along quite nicely. Now it's up to the board to actually do something about the club's standing within the league if we want to have any real chance at sustained success.

Clug took ~950k pa with us over ~1.3m offer from Saints.

 

[kernelT]

The point of difference you can build is what north, lions and Carlton (for example) have done which is building a list from the draft with highly marketable players who are also guns and who can create excitement + vision of a huge runway to launch up the ladder. Saints current list build doesn’t have that.



Clug took ~950k pa with us over ~1.3m offer from Saints.

 

[Elixuh]

View attachment 2177339

NWM, Henry and Wilson are the only players that excite me. I’m not excited by the Saints trajectory, potential or game style.

Whereas half North lists excites me. And their trajectory excites me. Their potential excites me.

It’s the neutral fan test.

 

[phantom13]

NWM, Henry and Wilson are the only players that excite me. I’m not excited by the Saints trajectory, potential or game style.

Whereas half North lists excites me. And their trajectory excites me. Their potential excites me.

It’s the neutral fan test.

Nothing nuetral at all about you.

 

[jumperfan]

NWM, Henry and Wilson are the only players that excite me. I’m not excited by the Saints trajectory, potential or game style.

Whereas half North lists excites me. And their trajectory excites me. Their potential excites me.

It’s the neutral fan test.

What trajectory? They've made no progress yet. If they finally come good this year then sure, but that hasn't happened yet.

 

[kernelT]

NWM, Henry and Wilson are the only players that excite me. I’m not excited by the Saints trajectory, potential or game style.

Whereas half North lists excites me. And their trajectory excites me. Their potential excites me.

It’s the neutral fan test.

Neutral nuffies do not excite me either.

Saints will be considered in no mans land till they're either top 4 or bottom 4, but you'd have to be a ****ing cabbage to suggest we haven't been hitting the draft or don't have any exciting young talent coming through the doors.

 

[Murraj1966]

NWM, Henry and Wilson are the only players that excite me. I’m not excited by the Saints trajectory, potential or game style.

Whereas half North lists excites me. And their trajectory excites me. Their potential excites me.

It’s the neutral fan test.

Be honest, youd have put a line through Harley Reid as boring as soon as he put on a St Kilda jumper

Hardly neutral if you’re posting in this dump

 

[EconomicDecline]

The point of difference you can build is what north, lions and Carlton (for example) have done which is building a list from the draft with highly marketable players who are also guns and who can create excitement + vision of a huge runway to launch up the ladder. Saints current list build doesn’t have that.



Clug took ~950k pa with us over ~1.3m offer from Saints.

NWM, Henry and Wilson are the only players that excite me. I’m not excited by the Saints trajectory, potential or game style.

Whereas half North lists excites me. And their trajectory excites me. Their potential excites me.

It’s the neutral fan test.

How is North in the conversation? They have spent 5 years being utter shit, decided to only draft mids, and went backwards this year (yes they actually did as percentage is a greater indicator). They have a loser culture now that has been baked in. All the possible intervention by the AFL, bar actually getting their own people in, has not shifted the needle. No idea how people still think high draft pick = star potential considering every draft is littered with first round busts.

 

[pebblesofsand]

Yeah, you’re not angry at all.

If you’re another Saint supporter who genuinely thinks that a club would tell a player not to come to the best and fairest while also being completely OK with them leaving the club you have not engaged your brain.

Saints clearly wanted Battle to stay, and were upset when he said he was going…. Or are you guys now trying to convince yourself that it was all pretend?

Like I said - demonstrating you know zilch about St Kilda and possibly less about professional sport.

Once Battle signed with the Hawks he was no longer a St Kilda player so why should he attend a St Kilda function?

And just to help you out with a bit of Saints knowledge - Battle had informed his "team mates" he was staying until he decided he wasn't - so there were some issues.

No doubt we were keen to keep him but Pick 8 for a 3rd tall defender who is neither a KPP or a elite intercepting player was just as an attractive option.

As to telling players who have left for another club that its probably best not to attend the Clubs B & F - not the first and certainly won't be last time it happens. Jake Lever springs to mind.

Its a much more professional way to approach a professional sport than risk the rank amateurism of something like this.

The rapturous applause from the Tigers faithful says it all



PS - Here's the Unrestricted Free Agent rules - in case you haven't seen them.

An unrestricted free agent (UFA) in the Australian Football League (AFL) is a player who is free to negotiate with any team after their contract with their previous club ends:

• They have played for one club for at least eight years
• They are out of contract
• They can automatically move to a new club of their choice

 

[Tasmanian saint]

Money.

I don’t say this to be inflammatory but I think the prospect of playing for the saints isnt attractive because…one part being a small irrelevant club in the Melbourne market and one part the current list build which looks underwhelming.

Brisbane hit the draft hard and got all the top end talent in and then was able to sell vision to guys like Neale etc. Saints haven’t hit the draft in the same concentrated sense or at the very top end like these other clubs.

With the saints irrelevancy in Melbourne they really need to build the excitement and vision from the draft imo.

It wasn’t to long ago when players were leaving Brisbane and no one wanted to go there , things can change with good management & coaching. But I do agree strong onfield results definitely help if you look back to the last time st kilda had strong teams and we’re contending they had no trouble signing players

 

[Broski]

DEARY, DEARY, CALSHEAR DEARY MEEEEEEEE

I don't know how it is so hard for you all to understand:

Hawks - good at everything to do with football
Saints - bad at everything to do with football

Sadly, I have subjected myself to the copious amounts of garbage being shared by "logical, impartial and intelligent" posters from other clubs. It is very clear that many do not have the slightest clue about the Saints and their current list build etc.

Personally, I am not going to regurgitate the facts that have already been said, because it will be met with "nah, uh".

All I will say is that we have turned over a massive portion of our list over the past couple of years under RTB. The list is full of young talent that doesn't get the recognition it deserves across the league.

Being only 27, I have seen a very very good Saints team that should have won a flag, as well as a decade of filth from a putrid coaching, admin and player group. This current administration is the strongest we have had in 15 years.

In my opinion, I could see us making the lower end of the top eight if we get through the preseason without any injuries to key personnel and the expected incremental improvement from existing youth. We could also finish 14th. It's an even comp.

Lastly, I honestly believe the Hawks posters in this thread are going to be in for a frustrating 2025. Of course, a modern history of winning flags will blind you from logic and reason, but you are every chance of missing out on finals next year.

You have a nice squad that will still be competitive, I am not dismissing that in the slightest. But all I will say is that many teams will figure you out and it will be up to Super Sam to show if he's a good coach. Maybe he is. Seems smart.

If not, I reckon that we see less brain rot TikTok content and good vibes. Just remember, you are never as good as you think you are.

 

[Elixuh]

Be honest, youd have put a line through Harley Reid as boring as soon as he put on a St Kilda jumper

Hardly neutral if you’re posting in this dump

Harley Reid is exactly the player the saints need

 

[aidansbonor]

Your midfields are ships passing in the night.

You’re a saints fan, I get it, but you’re giving the most favourable reading of your list possible (borderline deluded) and picking out all these minor things re oppos lists to balance the view.

Only Richmond has a worse midfield. Saints second last.

Awesome mate, thanks for ur opinion. Pure arrogance

 

[Elixuh]

Nothing nuetral at all about you.

I want the saints to do well. I have nothing against the saints. When I went to the saints v gcs game during the season I saw two fathers who had brought their kids to the game. All decked out in saints gear. They were nervously joking about the clubs misfortunes but you could tell there was hope there. And when the saints won and they cheering and laughing and smiling and I thought that’s what it’s all about you know? It was like those images during the great famine when a family would be given a few potatoes which would last them the week and the excitement on their faces.

 

[aidansbonor]

If not for Richmond nuking their list it's probably the worst midfield in the league.

On paper at least. Luckily games aren't won on paper.

Hawks vs Saints this year

Saints won clearances, centre clearances, stoppage clearances, contested possessions, uncontested possessions and inside 50s

But whatever u reckon lil bro

 

[kernelT]

I want the saints to do well. I have nothing against the saints. When I went to the saints v gcs game during the season I saw two fathers who had brought their kids to the game. All decked out in saints gear. They were nervously joking about the clubs misfortunes but you could tell there was hope there. And when the saints won and they cheering and laughing and smiling and I thought that’s what it’s all about you know? It was like those images during the great famine when a family would be given a few potatoes which would last them the week and the excitement on their faces.

Are you a fitzroy man per chance?

 

[Gavin Excell]

DEARY, DEARY, CALSHEAR DEARY MEEEEEEEE

I don't know how it is so hard for you all to understand:

Hawks - good at everything to do with football
Saints - bad at everything to do with football

Sadly, I have subjected myself to the copious amounts of garbage being shared by "logical, impartial and intelligent" posters from other clubs. It is very clear that many do not have the slightest clue about the Saints and their current list build etc.

Personally, I am not going to regurgitate the facts that have already been said, because it will be met with "nah, uh".

All I will say is that we have turned over a massive portion of our list over the past couple of years under RTB. The list is full of young talent that doesn't get the recognition it deserves across the league.

Being only 27, I have seen a very very good Saints team that should have won a flag, as well as a decade of filth from a putrid coaching, admin and player group. This current administration is the strongest we have had in 15 years.

In my opinion, I could see us making the lower end of the top eight if we get through the preseason without any injuries to key personnel and the expected incremental improvement from existing youth. We could also finish 14th. It's an even comp.

Lastly, I honestly believe the Hawks posters in this thread are going to be in for a frustrating 2025. Of course, a modern history of winning flags will blind you from logic and reason, but you are every chance of missing out on finals next year.

You have a nice squad that will still be competitive, I am not dismissing that in the slightest. But all I will say is that many teams will figure you out and it will be up to Super Sam to show if he's a good coach. Maybe he is. Seems smart.

If not, I reckon that we see less brain rot TikTok content and good vibes. Just remember, you are never as good as you think you are.

Interesting that a thread this time last year about Hawthorn was very similar with Hawk fans bemoaning the lack of awareness of where there club was in its rebuild and others dismissing their immediate future.
I'm sure even Strapping Young Lad would see the similarities with this thread

 

[phantom13]

I want the saints to do well. I have nothing against the saints. When I went to the saints v gcs game during the season I saw two fathers who had brought their kids to the game. All decked out in saints gear. They were nervously joking about the clubs misfortunes but you could tell there was hope there. And when the saints won and they cheering and laughing and smiling and I thought that’s what it’s all about you know? It was like those images during the great famine when a family would be given a few potatoes which would last them the week and the excitement on their faces.

All evidence in this thread to contrary but sure buddy.

 

[Pakenhamsaint]

I see this thread is up the top again.

What are opposition supporters complaining about St Kilda this week?