Review Time for excuses are over....Carlton v Fremantle

[The Old Dark Navy's]

This is a huge issue and is the "elephant in the room" as far as I am concerned.

I was a big wrap for Justin Cordy's appointment - and I believe he has had overview of 3 pre-seasons now with regard to physical conditioning of our list - yet we still look liked schoolboys compared to Fremantle.

All sides know that they have to get physical with us especially in close - and they can break us and most always attempt to break the lines right through us knowing that they can break most of our tackles.

Judd is about the only player on our list that can consistently break a tackle.

This is where age and body type come into it. We are rebuilding our experience deficiency which had a gaping hole in it for the best part of a decade.

I think we have players up and coming that will be physical enough in the future. Russell, Joseph, Walker all solid bodies.

We do have to carry less muscular players like Simpson, Houlihan, Betts, Garlett. Scotland has his moments but can also be fended off as he is not huge physically.

I think it is more than just breaking our tackles. I think it is technique and also a lack of pace from the players that can tackle, as they are often lunging and grasping. Perhaps there is a lack of venom in our tackles too as we are generally looking to cause turnovers and take the ball rather than pull off an aggressive tackle. For this reason, I think we are less than 100% committed to the tackle and fall off far too many. Should be hitting the bags a bit more I reckon.

Probably a bit more unsociable football is required, but we have one player who is doing that (Waite) but getting bagged for it. Not a lot wrong with what Waite is attempting to do but as a taller player, the risk of it going pear shaped is greater (same as Buddy).

 

[BlueGibbs2011]

I really dislike this being used. I did not see Fremantle stop working, run slower, stop diving to intercept or spoil the ball or tackle. There was plenty of time left in the match and the margin was going between 4 and 5 goals for a while. They responded each time we chipped away.

We started playing corridor football, it started working. Our confidence grew and we closed the gap.

Why must we highlight our frustration with the game and the fact that we rarely settled into our game plan and got a run on, by suggesting that when they finally did do what we had been waiting for them to do, it was only because the other team let them.

If this is the case, why the frustration at the loss?

Posters can't have it both ways. They are upset at the way we played because they think we could have played better and could have won, so they are critical of the coach and the players, but then go on to suggest that when we showed glimpses of our best, it was only because the other team took their foot off the gas.

Shouldn't we logically be accepting of the loss then, as we are effectively saying they are better than us unless they gift us some charity goals?

We are a developing side so we all have hope + frustration. Ratten has to cure the backline flooding at the minute - no easy task. I personally dont think we are close to a top 4 side as others due to inherent weaknesses so dont tend to rant like the others. I do get slightly frustrated!

What i dislike about your post is that you pick out one thing and ignore the overall sentiment which is what a lot of knitpickers do on this site.

The post i responded too and the point i was trying to make was he was making very poor excuses overall when analysed. You decided to ignore this and fight on one point for the sake of arguing!

 

[GoBlues!]

Well I am pissed off at is the lack of effort, that too coming on the back of last weeks crap as well.

I don't think there was a lack of effort. Carlton had more disposals (381>331), more tackles (77>72), more clearances (40>36) and more inside 50's than Fremantle. Don't confuse poor skills with lack of effort. It wasn't for lack of trying that the team lost.

2.12 at half time was due to was poor kicking and lack of effective disposals which points to a skills problem. Not sure whether our skills coaches and development academy have been that efffective either.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

We are a developing side so we all have hope + frustration. Ratten has to cure the backline flooding at the minute - no easy task. I personally dont think we are close to a top 4 side as others due to inherent weaknesses so dont tend to rant like the others. I do get slightly frustrated!

What i dislike about your post is that you pick out one thing and ignore the overall sentiment which is what a lot of knitpickers do on this site.

The post i responded too and the point i was trying to make was he was making very poor excuses overall when analysed. You decided to ignore this and fight on one point for the sake of arguing!

Firstly, your post was not directed towards me and I was not arguing any of the points you made prior to that, so the onus is not on me to respond to every point you made.

I believe that Freo did not take their foot off the gas, but instead, we stopped thinking so much and just played our natural game. In a sense, we took the pressure off ourselves.

Your point here was a stand alone point and by taking that point, I did not change the context of it in any way. Very odd thing to get defensive about IMO.

Secondly, I don't agree that his post was just excuses. That was a dismissive generalisation in my book. He stated how terribly we played on a couple of occasions in that post, but also put forward several facts. Pretty balanced assessment I thought, a foot in each camp.

 

[BlueTouchPaper]

I dont like the overly negative posters that only come after these type of games but sometimes you cant excuse losses either. We looked a rabble at times despite your excuse list...which is all it is...weak excuses.

I don't like posters who need to take exception to something because it isn't negative.

My post was mostly factual bar only one or two 'could haves'.

We lost Murph before the game. Freo are missing more players than us. Change was planned prior so no excuse benefit for us at all.

I agree, just for the record;
Murphy
Setanta
White
Austin
McLean

against;

Palmer
Broughton
MacPharlan
Headland
Mayne

Note that we lost our leading goal kicker this year, and our most dangerous goal kicking midfielder.
Surely Murphy and Setanta are the two biggest outs in those two lists.

The rotations hurt you late in the game....they smashed us early and flooded our backline...nothing to do with ANYONE else except this tactic which we cant handle with small fwds. Hill went off early for them early to get strapped up...they lost nothing for it. Rotations had nothing to do with it unless you just want to make stuff up as we were the ones flying home.

The bolded is absolute rubbish.

99% of our game is played using aerobic fitness ; rotations help to keep you fresher all game long. Absolutely ignorant to suggest the numbers on the bench don't help early in the game - when playing the game it's pretty obvious - the longer you can afford to give your good players a rest early on, generally, the better they play throughout the game.

As for small forwards, we have made many look sub-par recently. Teams effectively built around them now in St. Kilda and Geelong have been found largely lacking influence against the likes of Armfield (who demolished Byrnes), Joseph (down on form still - yet managed Milne) and Russell (SJ). This part of your post is absolute reactionary garbage, to be brutally honest.

We played aginast the most dominant big man in the game....sort of a good excuse...but then, dont we have one of the most dominant midfielders in the game in Judd. Who would you take if you had first pick? Judd/Sandi. Sandi is just an excuse when your team loses.

What a fanciful comparison - a more apt one would be Pavlich/Sandilands or Judd/Jacobs - that one (ie one that is actually relevant) is a complete no brainer.

You say maybe we could've won.... Really important for eveyrone to understand...we got on a roll when they took their foot off the pedal. When the game wasin the balance, their flooding of our fwd line killed us with smalls. Teams have worked us out and Ratts needs to find a counter..and quickly.

We dominated them in the first half of the first quarter as well - 4 behinds in a row from relatively getable shots - Gibbs with back-to-back points. This is what I was referring to. It's 'really important' for you to understand that games are never over. If we had've pinched that game I'm sure you would've been happy to label the win as an inspired comeback.

Stop sugar coating the fact we have been found out tactically for the minute. We should be frustrated.

No, it's the pelicans that need to stop sugar coating their analysis of how good we actually are, of where we are actually at at the moment.

Posters like you expect us to win the game yet, come on here and tell the rest of us that we get found out too easily tactically, and are consequently never in with a shout.

For a team that gets found out so frequently, you sure feel some disproportionate entitlement to seeing a win week-in week-out.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

I don't think there was a lack of effort. Carlton had more disposals (381>331), more tackles (77>72), more clearances (40>36) and more inside 50's than Fremantle. Don't confuse poor skills with lack of effort. It wasn't for lack of trying that the team lost.

2.12 at half time was due to was poor kicking and lack of effective disposals which points to a skills problem. Not sure whether our skills coaches and development academy have been that efffective either.

Yes I agree. You can pick it fairly early as to where we might lose a game. Against North and Hawthorn, I picked the lack of intensity right off the bat. Against Freo the intensity was there, the effort was there, but the skills and decision making were deplorable.

 

[LemmingMaster]

Not sure if it has been mentioned in here, but I had a feeling at one pointArmfield pulled out of a contest in the first half. It bugged me at the time, but I may have just looked into something that was not there.

 

[BlueTouchPaper]

Tarquin, watch the VERY first contest - Carrazzo takes a short step whilst heading back into traffic - it's difficult to recover from there.

One of our few leaders in a young team.

Ugh, for me, that was the most disappointing.

You're definitely not looking into something that's not there - every signal to the opposition that we thought we could win the game without putting our body on, only serves to motivate them.

 

[Beacon29]

What are your thoughts on Yarran?

I know Ratten wants to see him become a more rounded player, but he is playing out of position.

Yarran is a pure FF, whether it's an ego thing I dont know, but he needs to be the main man up forward. He plays the position so well and given a licence he could show you his full bag of tricks.

At the moment you're getting 70% out of him.

 

[LemmingMaster]

Yarran is not a pure FF, never has been and never will be.

 

[BlueGibbs2011]

Note that we lost our leading goal kicker this year, and our most dangerous goal kicking midfielder. Poor excuse - Geelong/Saints wins say hi.
Surely Murphy and Setanta are the two biggest outs in those two lists.The bolded is absolute rubbish. Setanta has been hit and miss...good sometimes and invisible others - how is he one of the biggest outs???? EXcuse only

99% of our game is played using aerobic fitness ; rotations help to keep you fresher all game long. Absolutely ignorant to suggest the numbers on the bench don't help early in the game - when playing the game it's pretty obvious - the longer you can afford to give your good players a rest early on, generally, the better they play throughout the game. I can only point out despite less rotations we flooded home. Excuse. They do play a part yes..BUT NOT IN THIS GAME.

As for small forwards, we have made many look sub-par recently. Teams effectively built around them now in St. Kilda and Geelong have been found largely lacking influence against the likes of Armfield (who demolished Byrnes), Joseph (down on form still - yet managed Milne) and Russell (SJ). This part of your post is absolute reactionary garbage, to be brutally honest. Setantas little helpers are trying as hard as they can most weeks. Flooding their space so they cant find any spaces stops their effectiveness...if not - how do you explain our misfiring fwd line?

What a fanciful comparison - a more apt one would be Pavlich/Sandilands or Judd/Jacobs - that one (ie one that is actually relevant) is a complete no brainer. You took one player and said we lost and it was expected because they did have Sandi when all said and done...this is a DUMB statement. When we beat Geelong do you think their supproters said "They had Judd so what could we do" Excuses.

We dominated them in the first half of the first quarter as well - 4 behinds in a row from relatively getable shots - Gibbs with back-to-back points. This is what I was referring to. It's 'really important' for you to understand that games are never over. If we had've pinched that game I'm sure you would've been happy to label the win as an inspired comeback. Yes we dominated but due toflooding and pressure on our small fwds and others they had notime and space so had VERY difficult shots. This is all credit to Freo and their tactics. There is no excuse to be had in saying we dominated but were..what..unlucky??? It was Freos pressure that we missed those shots.

No, it's the pelicans that need to stop sugar coating their analysis of how good we actually are, of where we are actually at at the moment.

Posters like you expect us to win the game yet, come on here and tell the rest of us that we get found out too easily tactically, and are consequently never in with a shout.

For a team that gets found out so frequently, you sure feel some disproportionate entitlement to seeing a win week-in week-out.

AS for the rest - you are an excuseologist of the highest order but cant even see it. Of course you did it to offset the nervous nellies on here...for me, my bullshitometre went off big time.

 

[BlueGibbs2011]

Firstly, your post was not directed towards me and I was not arguing any of the points you made prior to that, so the onus is not on me to respond to every point you made.

I believe that Freo did not take their foot off the gas, but instead, we stopped thinking so much and just played our natural game. In a sense, we took the pressure off ourselves.

Your point here was a stand alone point and by taking that point, I did not change the context of it in any way. Very odd thing to get defensive about IMO.

Secondly, I don't agree that his post was just excuses. That was a dismissive generalisation in my book. He stated how terribly we played on a couple of occasions in that post, but also put forward several facts. Pretty balanced assessment I thought, a foot in each camp.

Nps...we just dont see it the same. I'd of preferred this statement and left it at that.

 

[Sublime]

I just wanna see the boys go out there and play footy. I don't think alot of the players are smart enough to carry out the game plans that are often set out for them.

I want Robbo to try kill someone.
I want Gibbsy to arrow long balls to 1 on 1 contests.
I want Carrots to piss people off.
I want Jamo to back himself and use his underrated footskills and long kicking more.
I want Yaz & Garlett to back themselves and take the game on.
I want Walker to not try and think, JUST DO. Its obvious thinking hurts his head too much.
I want Hammer to knee people in the face at ruck contests.
I want Army to Run Forrest Run.

Go with your natural instincts guys dammit.

 

[incog43]

Outs as an excuse are valid, we hurt they hurt.

In match injuries are a valid excuse, it changes the mix, rotations and options.

It all sounds good, and posters and coaches can be all sage like with regard to their views as to why are team won or lost.

But, when all is said and done, the biggest factor is, Carlton either turn up to play, or they dont. As mentioned earlier, you can pick it in the first 10 minutes of the game. There is somthing rotten in the state of denmark people.

Whats changed since last year, well, a lot has, been some good young kids come thru, Irish shows a bit SOME games, some good signs.

But then, not much has changed, which side is going to show up this weekend, the side that gives a damn, will run through brick walls to win the ball? Or the side that is not quite sure why they are out there, that might hurt, someone else will do it, not me, not tonight. Gibbs game pretty much sums this approach up. Short steps in the last, and let the opportunity to kick goals and lead his team foward float away. Great player, played some great games, just like the other 22 out there, just some weeks, they are ordinary, real ordinary.

Sometimes I think there is something rotten at the core of our club, a weakness, insecurity, DOUBT. Just my view.

 

[TheRedPill]

I agree with the sentiments that we're lacking something mentally - that watershed moment when the whole club just realises "we've made it" and from then on become ruthless and all-conquering - but geez people overreact. I've been at most Carlton games this year, and what annoys me to no end is our supporters. Don't look at Murphy and Judd - the supporters are the front runners The amount of lip I see dished out when we're winning, and then the amount of people leaving in droves when we're losing is a disgrace. Of course we're going to have bad games where we look second rate. How short are people's memories? Look at the Geelong and St Kilda games where suddenly everyone was praising Ratten and co.

It's football, we are a young side and we're going to be inconsistent. To those criticising MSR... you are the ones who should be ashamed. So a supporter sticks his neck out and (God forbid) defends the club against a bad performance, and he gets blasted for it? That's a disgrace. No one is under the illusion we're an unbelievable side. It takes TIME and a lot of BELIEF to get to the stage where the Saints/Cats/Pies are now. We've just come out of a 10 year losing streak with a young side still recovering from the pre- and during Pagan era. Of course their confidence is going to be low. But look - slowly it's rebuilding, and that's all we can expect. It didn't happen to Geelong overnight and it's not going to happen to us suddenly.

Anyone who considers themselves a supporter should be able to accept the good and the bad and actually support the club.

Typical Brett Ratten bullshit. Can't coach, end of story. The only reason we beat St. Kilda + Geelong is because they play a similar brand of football to us, and they don't take us all that serious. They were missing players as well. (Riewoldt and Scarlett)

Ratten has no idea how to stead the tide when things aren't going our way. Sack the spud. We are going nowhere with him at the helm.

And yes, Armfield, Hadley and Joseph piss off. WH can also take a hike.

You're the supporters equivalent of Jordan McMahon. Soft. As. ****ing. Butter. Missing players? Yep, we've just had such a great run with injuries this season.

Give Armfield a break. He was superb before he got injured and has to get back into the groove. Why is it that the #1 trait a supporter should have - patience - is totally absent in a lot of Carlton supporters? Don't even get me started on WH - so easy to criticise but look at what he's been able to do. He has excellent results and time will continue to show that with the more recent drafts.

On the game itself, it was disheartening. I'm not sure what Ratten is doing because these sort of performances have to be ironed out sooner rather than later, and I am also worried about the state of things, but we need to SUPPORT the club and have some belief that they are doing things right. Confidence stems from within and these sort of reactions do nothing to help that.

Things will turn around. We may have minor fluctuations during a season but the overall trend is upward.

 

[krayfesh]

Pow!

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Anyone who considers themselves a supporter should be able to accept the good and the bad and actually support the club.

For some it is more about the 'fix'. Carlton doing well makes them stand taller. Possibly it gives them bragging rights. At any rate, it affects their personal happiness, and if we do not win, Carlton are at fault for robbing them of that happiness.

Most of us can relate to how bad we feel after a loss, and how hard it is to face up and be positive until we have had the chance to make amends. Some just lack the ability to put it into perspective.

I try to look around, see what else is going on in my life to take solace in and not look back too much. Some deal by lashing out. I am not sure if this makes them feel better however. You see some start to ease up after they have calmed down, some that don't fire up in the first place, and some that just keep smoldering.

 

[incog43]

I agree with the sentiments that we're lacking something mentally - that watershed moment when the whole club just realises "we've made it" and from then on become ruthless and all-conquering - but geez people overreact. So what is your problem? You agree its missing, whats the issue? Where does it come from, this wanting to be the best you can be? Generally it comes from within, you don't get taught it, its inherent, part of an individuals make up, Armfield is the perfect example of the desire to win, lacks the skills and experience but that guy is just driven to compete. You do this game after game, week after week, you don't hang your hat on a couple of decent games in a row then regress to old ways.

It's football, we are a young side and we're going to be inconsistent. To those criticising MSR... you are the ones who should be ashamed. So a supporter sticks his neck out and (God forbid) defends the club against a bad performance, and he gets blasted for it? That's a disgrace. Playing with heart and desire consistently has nothing to do with skills and bad days at the office, there is losing to a better team, and then there is losing because you don't believe. If MSR wants to put his view out there then like anyone else it is subject to other opinions.
The unconditional support some of you people demand is best left to your children.

Anyone who considers themselves a supporter should be able to accept the good and the bad and actually support the club. Fine, and state their own views perhaps, rather than engage in some sort of weird group love in.

On the game itself, it was disheartening. I'm not sure what Ratten is doing because these sort of performances have to be ironed out sooner rather than later, and I am also worried about the state of things, but we need to SUPPORT the club and have some belief that they are doing things right. Confidence stems from within and these sort of reactions do nothing to help that. Well hello, so it concerns you as well, isn't this the same club that cheated the salary cap, incurred fines, lost draft picks, but hey, lets all relax with the thought that there is no way a club can implode from within...again. Lets not question the structure within, I mean they do know best...don't they.

Things will turn around. We may have minor fluctuations during a season but the overall trend is upward.

The problem lies within the players and there immediate support group, from Ratten's deer in the headlights look(which has improved) to Gibbs not being able to kick a goal from 30 - 40 meters directly out(he is in good company however). Where is that belief, inner strength. Give Geelong credit, they have been doing this for 4 years now, week in, week out, that's not easy.

I don't have much time for TG, but he is right, keep Robinson out there, Armfield as well, they are the soul of the match day team, they want to win, EVERY week, JR/Garlet is fast joining them, now when we have 22 out there on a consistent basis and a coach who believes(could be Ratten) we will win a flag.

 

[incog43]

I try to look around, see what else is going on in my life to take solace in and not look back too much. Some deal by lashing out. I am not sure if this makes them feel better however. You see some start to ease up after they have calmed down, some that don't fire up in the first place, and some that just keep smoldering.

Are you talking about the supporters, or the 22 out on the park Saturday night?

 

[aflcliche]

At the risk of seeming more naive, who is this WH, referred to above?

 

[incog43]

At the risk of seeming more naive, who is this WH, referred to above?

Wayne Hughes I'm guessing.

 

[aflcliche]

I just wanna see the boys go out there and play footy. I don't think alot of the players are smart enough to carry out the game plans that are often set out for them.

I want Robbo to try kill someone.
I want Gibbsy to arrow long balls to 1 on 1 contests.
I want Carrots to piss people off.
I want Jamo to back himself and use his underrated footskills and long kicking more.
I want Yaz & Garlett to back themselves and take the game on.
I want Walker to not try and think, JUST DO. Its obvious thinking hurts his head too much.
I want Hammer to knee people in the face at ruck contests.
I want Army to Run Forrest Run.



Go with your natural instincts guys dammit.

 

[Boltfromtheblue]

Disappointing night's footy but a few positives.

Garlett's pressure and willingness to run was fantastic and has been for a number of weeks! Yarran and Bett's also good at this but I get an impression the Garlett is really beginning to mature this season.

Hendo did a great job and I hope a few of his critics begin to shut up. Must keep playing him this season. Great to see a few contested marks.

Jacobs shouldered a huge burden. Though he got well and truely beaten by Sandilands, that was always going to happen. Thought he did a lot to compete and minimise Sandilands impact...we even won the clearances.

Good to see Bower and Army return to the backline. Obviously the backline group need a bit more time to gel together.

One grumble: can someone please start delivering inside 50 to advantage? Is there such a stat (i50 seems to be very misleading, would love to see effective i50). If that is not possible, making sure it is not to "disadvantage". Wouldn't even care if it was deep to the pocket and over the boundary line rather than an uncontested mark to the opposition. Hope Setanta gets back soon. Think he is really unappreciated as a true team player, who always tries to create a contest and works to the team benefit.

 

[BlueGibbs2011]

Will be a very interesting game with Brisbane. We match up very well, they have lots of player issues and it is our home game.

We should win but i'm sure Vossy watched closely enough to see that clogging our fwd line is the way to go. If it is an open game we will kill them. If it is the entire brisbane team flooding back to ou fwd line then i'm not too sure.

We will solve this problem long term for sure but for now, it is an interesting issue for Ratten.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Are you talking about the supporters, or the 22 out on the park Saturday night?

I don't see anywhere near enough passion out on the ground.

I see Eddie's goal celebrations which are more about 'how good am I?'

I would like to see more of Setanta's passion permeate through the team. I would like to see Scotto's eyes glaring at someone with intensity as they do when he is on.

Robbo is probably the only one I see that wants to die for the colours, rather than just earn a paycheck. Pretty obvious the guy just loves to play footy and loves to be competitive, and if he can earn a living from it, all the better.