List Mgmt. Trade & Draft Discussion 2023 post season - Picks Reid,30,40,49,66 (Bush league)

[Lore]

Hello Eagles fans!

The embedded resources below are kept up to date by the trade board mods (as much as possible – we are human after all). Enjoy!

Spoiler: 2023 Draft Order

Spoiler: 2024 Draft Order, aka Future Picks

Spoiler: Blue Tick Rumours

Keys you may like to sticky this post & move it to the start of the thread (so the sticky post doesn't rotate if a post is deleted before it), or copy it to your draft thread if you have one.

 

[briztoon]

Cry me a river.

Eight million living in NSW, exclusive rights to two teams. Not just remote or specific backgrounds, everyone. How many are eligible in the selective zones and ethnicities of the teams in the traditional footy playing states. A mere fraction is my guess, and then we have to hope they are good, but not too good.

Discounts on picks and over valued low picks giving very cheap access to top end talent to the Northern States. Kids coming through the pathways who were never going to be lost to the sport e.g. Walter and Hodges boy.

The ability to treat players as one of the team for years before even being drafted, because that is the certainty the Northern states have.


Also, when you wrote this, I assume you were just trying to be cute.

The one thing I will give is that the Victorian clubs do love to raid the Northerners and it is not their fault the AFL is so incompetent that the more they try ‘even’ things the more they feck things up.

I haven't tried to defend the academies. I have pointed out fallacies and inaccuracies in some posts.

Sure 8 million people live in NSW. But AFL isn't the main football code in the state. It's a close 3rd/4th with Rugby Union. In the "Traditional" states, AFL is the main football code, by a significant margin.

Most of that 8 million follow 1 of the 10 NRL clubs based in NSW. Soccer is also ahead of AFL, by a fair margin in NSW.

So it's not "exclusive" rights. It's competing rights with NRL, Soccer and Rugby Union. And NRL is the big dog with more $$ in NSW.

Yeah, there's the AFL "heartland" in the Riverina, but kids from there aren't eligible for either academy, and most play for the Murray Bushrangers, like Phoenix Gothard and Connor O'Sullivan.

Your rhetoric sounds good, but isn't close to reality.


For the most part, the majority of academy kids have very, very little contact with the senior team. For GC, Rogers did, but their other 3 draftees didn't. So it was one out of four kids who actually had regular contact and training with the senior team.

At the Lions, only kids who look like probable draftees spend their top age preseason with the senior team. So this summer Levi Ashcroft and Sam Marshall are doing preseason with the team. That has to be ticked off by the AFL. Then after the U18 Championships are finished, maybe one or two kids might join the VFL program.

There's no "years" spent with the senior team. Most of the academy kids have to balance academy training with club training. The northern clubs would love to have the kids in their academies 100% of the time, but that's not allowed under the current rules, they still have train with their club team, because at the end of the day, the vast majority don't get drafted to the AFL, but go back and play club footy.

 

[Wooshaaaa]

GWS swapped R1 picks with Adelaide

Moved back from 8 to 11 whilst moving up from 17 to 15

They received Adelaide’s F2 to balance out the trade

(For comparison Essendon gave Geelong pick 31 to move up one spot)

GWS then gave up their F2 to move up from what had now become 18 to 17

Now they got their two targets (Gothard and Leake) but by trading down they only bettered their trade hand by holding Adelaide’s F2 instead of their own. That’s it

Could have traded their pick 8 to WCE for our F1 and still got Gothard (but not Leake). If they were nervy on Gothard they still could have used their F2 to move up a spot or two like they did for Leake

In essence they’ve taken Leake now with a minor F2 upgrade, instead of holding our F1 which will almost certainly be a top 4 pick

Some people were pissed we were giving up our F1 for Curtin. GWS did it for Leake

Exactly this....dumbfounding. I was about to post this, you beat me to the analysis. They wouldve got gothard. Looking at what the other teams picked he was going to slide to there pick..



On Pixel 6 Pro using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[donpyke92]

I haven't tried to defend the academies. I have pointed out fallacies and inaccuracies in some posts.

Brizzy, I do enjoy your input on this board.
I have a feeling, completely unfounded, that you are a cross between Ben Affleck character in The Accountant and Rus Crowe in Beautiful Mind. It's not a dis.
I aint messing with an assassin crossed with a gladiator is all.
Interested for your insights into this draft and how it goes for our rebuild

 

[30stm3891]

Further to this Country and briztoon , GC actually traded some of their excess rnd 3 picks for future rnd 3 picks which were not mentioned in your above diatribe.

I honestly believe it got to the point GC had rorted the system that much, they passed prematurely on their last couple of picks. If you actually look at the picks they passed on, other clubs were still trading up after that, they could have easily got another F4 or 2.

Wouldn't be surprised AFL have assisted GC with this....

 

[Mop]

I found the GWS recruiter dude to be really condescending to be honest, but I also understand when he's speaking in first person he's justifying his own position to the other recruiters, so it perhaps wasn't the best cut.

Clearly they liked Phoenix, hence the big rise up the draft board, and fair enough, but jeez I reckon Adelaide are laughing.

 

[Corkintheocean]

Can’t see the point in Livingstone that’s what a 5th or 6th ruck on the list if you count archer reid as well.

None of them are any good though...

 

[Art OF war]

This factually incorrect. GC hold 1 future round 3 pick they received from Carlton in the Elijah Hollands trade. They did trade pick 51 to Brisbane for a future round 4 pick.


Gold Coast 2024 picks from the AFL website.
Round one pick GC
Round one pick (tied to Western Bulldogs)
End of round one (North Melbourne assistance)
Round two pick GC
Round two pick (tied to Brisbane, received from Hawthorn)
Round three pick (tied to Essendon, received from Carlton)
Round four pick (tied to Brisbane)

2024 draft order: Pies hope for Hawks slide, Tigers load up

Take a look at your club's 2024 draft hand as it stands, and who you should be barracking against next season

www.afl.com.au

You are 100% correct. Yes I was wrong about the extra 3rd round pick/ it was actually a 4th round pick. Yes I can say it.

You spent triple the size of my post to point that out and tell me the abundance of picks GC have. What id really like to know is do you think it’s fair GC got what they did this year, and also have that future hand? Just in case you’ve forgotten, here’s the list of GC’s next year picks:

Round one pick GC
Round one pick (tied to Western Bulldogs)
End of round one (North Melbourne assistance)
Round two pick GC
Round two pick (tied to Brisbane, received from Hawthorn)
Round three pick (tied to Essendon, received from Carlton)
Round four pick (tied to Brisbane)

Source: Briztoon

 

[briztoon]

You are 100% correct. Yes I was wrong about the extra 3rd round pick/ it was actually a 4th round pick. Yes I can say it.

You spent triple the size of my post to point that out and tell me the abundance of picks GC have. What id really like to know is do you think it’s fair GC got what they did this year, and also have that future hand? Just in case you’ve forgotten, here’s the list of GC’s next year picks:

Round one pick GC
Round one pick (tied to Western Bulldogs)
End of round one (North Melbourne assistance)
Round two pick GC
Round two pick (tied to Brisbane, received from Hawthorn)
Round three pick (tied to Essendon, received from Carlton)
Round four pick (tied to Brisbane)

Source: Briztoon

Do I think it’s fair?

Yes.

It was all done within the rules the AFL has laid out.

 

[Mop]

Do I think it’s fair?

Yes.

It was all done within the rules the AFL has laid out.

So you think the current academy and bidding process is fit for purpose? That is, four clubs having both a greatly enhanced ability to draft players and at a price the 14 other clubs cannot obtain?

Do you think this creates a fair and balanced competition? Do you think if, say, Gold Coast become a dynasty team in three years when their cheaply acquired star recruits get good that it'd be because of good management, or a system weighted solely to create artificial success to an expansion side?

 

[Mop]

So you think the current academy and bidding process is fit for purpose?

Do I think it’s fair?

Yes.

It was all done within the rules the AFL has laid out.

Answer carefully.

 

[Obeanie1]

You know what I like most about Reid and Hall?

I can't imagine them not confronting someone like De Goey after that cheap hit against Hewett.

These young guys are going to change the current culture of the club and drag the old gumbies along with them.

(I may or may not have been incensed by spotting that incident on a video short just then. The lack of reaction was humiliating.)

Thsts what 200cm Livingston was drafted for as well.

Culley I don't see taking a backwards step either.

Both big boys.

 

[3agles87]

I haven't tried to defend the academies. I have pointed out fallacies and inaccuracies in some posts.

Sure 8 million people live in NSW. But AFL isn't the main football code in the state. It's a close 3rd/4th with Rugby Union. In the "Traditional" states, AFL is the main football code, by a significant margin.

Most of that 8 million follow 1 of the 10 NRL clubs based in NSW. Soccer is also ahead of AFL, by a fair margin in NSW.

So it's not "exclusive" rights. It's competing rights with NRL, Soccer and Rugby Union. And NRL is the big dog with more $$ in NSW.

Yeah, there's the AFL "heartland" in the Riverina, but kids from there aren't eligible for either academy, and most play for the Murray Bushrangers, like Phoenix Gothard and Connor O'Sullivan.
T
Your rhetoric sounds good, but isn't close to reality.


For the most part, the majority of academy kids have very, very little contact with the senior team. For GC, Rogers did, but their other 3 draftees didn't. So it was one out of four kids who actually had regular contact and training with the senior team.

At the Lions, only kids who look like probable draftees spend their top age preseason with the senior team. So this summer Levi Ashcroft and Sam Marshall are doing preseason with the team. That has to be ticked off by the AFL. Then after the U18 Championships are finished, maybe one or two kids might join the VFL program.

There's no "years" spent with the senior team. Most of the academy kids have to balance academy training with club training. The northern clubs would love to have the kids in their academies 100% of the time, but that's not allowed under the current rules, they still have train with their club team, because at the end of the day, the vast majority don't get drafted to the AFL, but go back and play club footy.

”your rhetoric sounds good but isn’t close to reality”.

Let's talk reality then. The reality is that the Swans, a top team at the time, had access to a number of its now best players on the cheap who were highly rated in their draft years (Isaac Heaney and Callum Mills to name a couple).

Gold Coast, already littered with top talent and on the rise, got access to four first round picks this year and banked picks for next year. All the while, a number of teams lost out on their boys in the late 20’s and 30’s of the draft because ‘reasons’.

Then we have you telling us for months how future years are littered with even more Northern Academy kids. So what that AFL is the third or fourth ranked code in those states, the reality is that they are generating a lot of talent that is accessible to a limited number of teams.

You were also advocating for the Eagles to split picks this year as, if I remember your characterisation correctly, the only way we compete with this distorted market place is to find ways to bring in more quantity of quality players. I somewhat agreed with this position for next year because I wanted Harley this year.

However, while the Northern Academies teams are splitting picks to get the best talent possible to them, the Eagles should split picks to dilute the talent available but to have more of it. This only reinforces the ridiculous distortion the AFL has created in the draft.

Then let's talk about the fallacy father sons benefit the traditional states, so the Northern Academies balance it out. Sydney and the Lions have been around as long as the WA and SA teams. Sydney through Blakey and Brisbane through Fletcher and the Ashcroft boys have done better out of father sons than most teams. So they get the double benefit.

And, who cares that it is only Roger’s that trained with the senior team. One is enough to demonstrate the benefit. The Northern Academies still get to groom all of their young players knowing that if they are any good they will have unfettered access on the cheap. This is not the same for others.

So rhetoric works both ways. But the reality is there is a reason why the Northern Academies are under pressure now. And while you suggest you are not defending them and are just pointing out fallacies in the arguments, what’s the point of that if not to defend them?

 

[Obeanie1]

Do I think it’s fair?

Yes.

It was all done within the rules the AFL has laid out.

Come on Briz.

You have stated multiple times you see the Lions academy access has become a rort that won't last forever now Lions aren't on struggle Street.

But it's all good for the Suns to gain ridiculous access to player PLUS bank picks in the future. They keep banking future picks at this rate they will end up holding 30% of the 1st round.

And to describe this abortion of rules as fair........even the Vic media are feeling sorry for us. That's a fairly good indicator things aren't right.

 

[3agles87]

Do I think it’s fair?

Yes.

It was all done within the rules the AFL has laid out.

There are different layers of fair.

within the rules = fair. I agree, can’t blame GC for that.

but does an unfair system = fair. I say no, the AFL is A joke of an organisation.

 

[ziad]

Time to move on?

 

[Lyyynnnchy]

I do wonder how creative we got with the future first before the trade period ended and wonder if it was a case of being too slow to get in before all clubs were settled on their picks.

That is, with all clubs who had picks in the range that gws would have been prepared to slide to.

We wouldn’t have traded our F1 in the trade period as we wouldn’t have known if Curtin would still be there

 

[Obeanie1]

Time to move on?

That's what AFL House wants.

To 'move on' and stop the negative press and focus on their mismanagement.

When the Vic media start feeling sorry for us you know something is badly broken.

 

[Obeanie1]

There are different layers of fair.

within the rules = fair. I agree, can’t blame GC for that.

but does an unfair system = fair. I say no, the AFL is A joke of an organisation.

Correct.


Extreme example I admit.

Slavery was legal once. And people and countries played within the rules of the time and got obscenely wealthy. Blood money.


Was that fair?

 

[briztoon]

So you think the current academy and bidding process is fit for purpose? That is, four clubs having both a greatly enhanced ability to draft players and at a price the 14 other clubs cannot obtain?

Do you think this creates a fair and balanced competition? Do you think if, say, Gold Coast become a dynasty team in three years when their cheaply acquired star recruits get good that it'd be because of good management, or a system weighted solely to create artificial success to an expansion side?

I’m not defending the academy system.

I answered a question about whether Gold Coast trading pick 4 for multiple later and future picks was fair.

I didn’t answer the question behind it, as to why they traded pick 4.

 

[briztoon]

”your rhetoric sounds good but isn’t close to reality”.

Let's talk reality then. The reality is that the Swans, a top team at the time, had access to a number of its now best players on the cheap who were highly rated in their draft years (Isaac Heaney and Callum Mills to name a couple).

Gold Coast, already littered with top talent and on the rise, got access to four first round picks this year and banked picks for next year. All the while, a number of teams lost out on their boys in the late 20’s and 30’s of the draft because ‘reasons’.

Then we have you telling us for months how future years are littered with even more Northern Academy kids. So what that AFL is the third or fourth ranked code in those states, the reality is that they are generating a lot of talent that is accessible to a limited number of teams.

You were also advocating for the Eagles to split picks this year as, if I remember your characterisation correctly, the only way we compete with this distorted market place is to find ways to bring in more quantity of quality players. I somewhat agreed with this position for next year because I wanted Harley this year.

However, while the Northern Academies teams are splitting picks to get the best talent possible to them, the Eagles should split picks to dilute the talent available but to have more of it. This only reinforces the ridiculous distortion the AFL has created in the draft.

Then let's talk about the fallacy father sons benefit the traditional states, so the Northern Academies balance it out. Sydney and the Lions have been around as long as the WA and SA teams. Sydney through Blakey and Brisbane through Fletcher and the Ashcroft boys have done better out of father sons than most teams. So they get the double benefit.

And, who cares that it is only Roger’s that trained with the senior team. One is enough to demonstrate the benefit. The Northern Academies still get to groom all of their young players knowing that if they are any good they will have unfettered access on the cheap. This is not the same for others.

So rhetoric works both ways. But the reality is there is a reason why the Northern Academies are under pressure now. And while you suggest you are not defending them and are just pointing out fallacies in the arguments, what’s the point of that if not to defend them?

I have stayed away from the majority of that discussion, because…. I’m not defending the Acadamies.

The only point I’ll address above is that I was 100% on the draft Harley Reid bandwagon.

However I was advocating for WC to split their future first round pick, but it appears no satisfactory offers were available.

 

[briztoon]

Come on Briz.

You have stated multiple times you see the Lions academy access has become a rort that won't last forever now Lions aren't on struggle Street.

But it's all good for the Suns to gain ridiculous access to player PLUS bank picks in the future. They keep banking future picks at this rate they will end up holding 30% of the 1st round.

And to describe this abortion of rules as fair........even the Vic media are feeling sorry for us. That's a fairly good indicator things aren't right.

Hey Obeanie1 I never said the rules were fair.

I haven’t called the Lions academy a rort. I have said it’s an advantage. One we have failed to take advantage of, as we don’t fund or staff our academy to the extent of the other 3 teams.

I wasn’t around here when Darcy or Daicos came through, so I don’t know if there was similar outrage.

 

[briztoon]

We wouldn’t have traded our F1 in the trade period as we wouldn’t have known if Curtin would still be there

You should have made the trade (in theory) whether you knew if Curtain was available or not.

You’re not splitting your future first for a particular player, you’re splitting it to get extra talent in to the club.

 

[Ambrose Burnside]

Ugh briztoon mate let us bitch in peace farken hell.

 

[Mop]

I’m not defending the academy system.

I answered a question about whether Gold Coast trading pick 4 for multiple later and future picks was fair.

I didn’t answer the question behind it, as to why they traded pick 4.

And I’m asking you the question behind it.
Quite plainly and simply.

Do. You. Think. The. Northern. Academy. System. Is. Fair. And. Balanced?

Yes or no is all it requires.
Not that hard.

 

[briztoon]

And I’m asking you the question behind it.
Quite plainly and simply.

Do. You. Think. The. Northern. Academy. System. Is. Fair. And. Balanced?

Yes or no is all it requires.
Not that hard.

It’s complicated.

Tag me in 12 hours to answer when I’m home from work and our daughter is in bed.