List Mgmt. Trade & Free Agency talk Pt 3

[Oshka]

Then you fail in your own criteria, Ellis is draft is pretty weak. If the 2011 draft was redone Ellis would probably go up.

Debatable.

 

[Muddiemoose]

Well Elliot Yeo and Tom Mitchell went after Ellis in the 2011 draft, then again so did Josh Bootsma.

They are also inside mids
Ellis was always an outside mid
Without going back and looking what exactly our list needed at the time it’s hard to judge as well

We may of been flush for inside players at that point but needed outside blokes

 

[hanshotfirst]

Well Elliot Yeo and Tom Mitchell went after Ellis in the 2011 draft, then again so did Josh Bootsma.

Yeah but his draft spot wouldn't change, those blokes would just go in the top five, failed picks like Tyson and Patton would come out.

If you want to call Ellis a failure fine, but there is no basis to it outside of you don't like the way he played for us

 

[hanshotfirst]

Debatable.

Not really, the 2011 draft is absolute shite, even if you allowed the father son picks as normal picks (tom Mitchell) Ellis stays where he is.

 

[DickieKnee]

Yeah but his draft spot wouldn't change, those blokes would just go in the top five, failed picks like Tyson and Patton would come out.

If you want to call Ellis a failure fine, but there is no basis to it outside of you don't like the way he played for us

yeah I agree, Ellis was in no way a fail, will go on to be a 200 game player.

 

[Muddiemoose]

Also a lot of our draft “failures” were taken when we had completely different staff in charge of the job
That’s when Dan Richardson at the top job
Can’t really judge Clarke and Livingstone when they didn’t have the sr roles they have now

 

[tora tora tora]

And how is heppills doing these days then now that the injections have worn off!?

Captain, 185 games. playing ok at HBF. Really just had the season off for the supplements.

 

[Muddiemoose]

Captain, 185 games. playing ok at HBF. Really just had the season off for the supplements.

Conca isn’t that far behind tbf 150 games and has been a member of Freo’s leadership group for a number of years now

 

[Meteoric Rise]

Start of 21 and Grimes

Ok well there are a few things that might help explain why Grimes gets two years and Prestia 3 years.

1. Grimes is more than a year older than Prestia so they are effectively contracted until they reach the same age.
2. Grimes has played 185 games and Prestia 170 so over the course of their careers they average a similar amount of games missed through injury over the longer course.
3. Prestia played all 25 games in 2019 and the only games he missed in 2020 were through his syndesmosis injury. This type of injury has nothing to do with being injury prone it is an impact injury that could equally affect any player at any time. As far as I can make out Prestia had gone a full finals campaign + two full seasons with no soft tissue injuries prior to the extension being signed. Before that he had some issues in 2018. But Grimes had also had one or two small soft tissue niggles in recent seasons.
4. Last but not least, market forces would always need to be considered.

But on the whole once you adjust for their relative ages and considering recent history, it seems to me they have both been treated similarly in terms of their extensions.

 

[DickieKnee]

Its ridiculous to look at a draft in hindsight there's no way we or any team is going to absolutely nail every selection. Bolton went at 29, he'd be top 3 in that draft now.

 

[hanshotfirst]

Debatable.

I'll throw you an olive branch, i think the main point you were going for is that our current 22 isn't made up on of top 30 picks in the last 7 to 10 years, and two pick in the teens may not be that dissimilar to low pick 20s.

The draft is a lottery, in the end is an educated guess, but (will need to find the data, definitely saw it before) when you breakdown the average games for 1 to 10, 10 to 20 and 10 to 30, there is a difference. So picking up a gun, you've got a better chance with a higher pick (obviously). It is easier to go down that route, than say clear cap space, move on players to bring in an established gun.

Also I'll back our recruitment department, given the absolute peanuts they been given in drafts picks last 5 years to pick a winner or two.

 

[axel2cotch2lids]

We should be talking to Jarrod Brander at WCE about a KPD role, and a pick swap or player swap for Narkle

 

[Coach_Required]

Club needs to play it smart, sure get some players in but don't give up our great draft hand. I'd pass on the likes of Cerra & Mitchell rumors.

 

[YeOldTiger]

yeah I agree, Ellis was in no way a fail, will go on to be a 200 game player.
[/QUOTE
Ellis has already played 206 games.

 

[DickieKnee]

Well he's likely to go on to 250 games which puts him in with the top players in the AFL.

 

[YeOldTiger]

Well he's likely to go on to 250 games which puts him in with the top players in the AFL.

Pretty sure he's played more games than anyone in his draft year which is no mean feat.

 

[fargothegreat]

yeah I agree, Ellis was in no way a fail, will go on to be a 200 game player.

Would be our best wingman if he was still with us. Works hard both ways. Not a star, but a solid player and definitely not a "failure".

Yeah he's a bit timid at the contest sometimes, but so is Bachar Houli and people will look back on his career very favourably.

 

[ryza87]

This thread has turned to shit!

 

[TiggerMan22]

Would be our best wingman if he was still with us. Works hard both ways. Not a star, but a solid player and definitely not a "failure".

Yeah he's a bit timid at the contest sometimes, but so is Bachar Houli and people will look back on his career very favourably.

Also how many wings are there that aren't a bit timid? It comes with the position. You have to be pretty lean and your goal is outside play and run.

 

[TiggerMan22]

Well he's likely to go on to 250 games which puts him in with the top players in the AFL.

He's likely to hit 300 games.

About to turn 28 and should be at 214 games at years end.

Has missed a total of 10 games in his 10 seasons so if that continues he just has to play until his about 32 which looks likely considering hes having close to a career best year this season.

 

[TiggerMan22]

Just on Prestia a 3 year extension was too charitable.

The older guys have been signing 1 year extensions, He’s 28 but 3-4 year history of hamstring injuries, 2 years would have been middle ground.

Grimes who is a year older but has missed hardly any football since 2017 was re-signed for 2 years at the same time.

Na, he deserved the 3. 1 for each flag he helped us win.

 

[Rioli2Rioli]

Club needs to play it smart, sure get some players in but don't give up our great draft hand. I'd pass on the likes of Cerra & Mitchell rumors.

I would be putting up a trade for similar aged players as an example to freo and its supporters

Brad Hill was a 22 year old 3 time premiership player with similar average and better disposal that was traded from Hawthorn to fremantle because he wanted to go back home to WA
"The Hawks gain pick 23 in the national draft for the 23-year-old Hill, who played an important role in their 2013, 2014 and 2015 flag-winning squads.
Hill will join his older brother Stephen at the Dockers.
The speedy winger told the Hawks late in the 2016 season he wished to return to his home state of Western Australia".

 

[Mr Magic]

I would be putting up a trade for similar aged players as an example to freo and its supporters

Brad Hill was a 22 year old 3 time premiership player with similar average and better disposal that was traded from Hawthorn to fremantle because he wanted to go back home to WA
"The Hawks gain pick 23 in the national draft for the 23-year-old Hill, who played an important role in their 2013, 2014 and 2015 flag-winning squads.
Hill will join his older brother Stephen at the Dockers.
The speedy winger told the Hawks late in the 2016 season he wished to return to his home state of Western Australia".

Bolton is ahead of Hill at this stage by a good way. 23 is not even ball park, not near it

 

[YeOldTiger]

Bolton is ahead of Hill at this stage by a good way. 23 is not even ball park, not near it

3 and 23 and you're getting closer

 

[_RT_]

Yes. My criteria is if the draft was redone, were they taken higher than they should’ve been? If yes, then that equates to a fail and is poor drafting. B. Ellis could’ve been found with a pick in the 20s, Rioli a pick in the 30s, Conca a pick in the 50s, etc.

Lol at the rest of your post. I don’t care how many flags these blokes were carried to. They were largely disappointing picks. They found themselves out of our side due to us not wanting to keep them because they’re clearly expendable. Bolton leaving is not due to us being in a position to let him go. Poor comparison. And stop using team accolades to talk up individuals.

I’m guessing you would’ve been happy for us to use a top five pick on Townsend?

Pretty easy to give players a fail mark when you've set a pretty simple standard to judge them on.

Conca was taken with pick 6 and has played 149 games currently. Average number of games for a player taken pick 6 from 37 drafts is 62 games.
Brandon Ellis was taken with pick 15 and has played 207 games currently. As was Rioli and he has played 106 games currently. Average number of games for a player taken pick 15 from 37 drafts is 79 games.

LOL at Ellis and Conca being left out of our side because we didn't want to keep them. Conca played 18 games in his last season with us including the 2 finals we played and was offered a 2 year deal to remain at Richmond at the end of 2018, but chose to return back to WA on a longer term deal. Ellis played in 23 of 25 games in his final season with us and the club was happy to retain him but weren't willing to pay him the same amount and length of deal that the Suns offered so he left as a free agent.

Apart from being part of 2 premierships, individually Ellis was runner up in the 2014 B&F, was selected in the AA squad of 40 that same year and was selected 3 times in the AFL 22 under 22 side. He also won the 2015 Yiooken Award in the Dreamtime Game ahead of the likes of Deledio Cotchin Martin & Edwards.

As for Rioli being carried to his premierships, in his first 5 seasons at the club he averaged 19 games a season and that's despite missing half a year recovering from a broken foot suffered in the 2017 Premiership. He has also been named in the 22 under 22 side and finished top 10 in the B&F in a premiership year.

Finally you gave Noah Balta a pass mark and he has played 44 career games but Jack Higgins was a failure yet he's played 43 games and they were taken in the same draft. So what individual achievements separates Balta from Higgins given you're not counting premierships?