Transgender - Part 2

[Gethelred]

Please be aware that the tolerance of anti-trans language on BF is at an all-time low. Jokes and insults that are trans-related, as well as anti-trans and bigoted rhetoric will be met with infractions, threadbans etc as required. It's a sensitive (and important) topic, so behave like well-mannered adults when discussing it, PARTICULARLY when disagreeing. This equally applies across the whole site.

 

[Chief]

An IBA technical document, effective May 13, 2023, says this: “‘Women/Female/Girl’ means an individual with chromosome XX. For this purpose, the Boxers can be submitted to a random and/or targeted gender test to confirm the above, which will serve for the gender eligibility criteria for the IBA Competitions.”

They seem to be taking a one-dimensional view of what it seems everyone agrees is a more complex situation.

Sounds like a dangerous path to take, unless you're of the Kremlev type.

 

[BlueE]

They seem to be taking a one-dimensional view of what it seems everyone agrees is a more complex situation.

Sounds like a dangerous path to take, unless you're of the Kremlev type.

If you want categories of 'male' and 'other males', it might seem that way.

 

[Chief]

If you want categories of 'male' and 'other males', it might seem that way.

You agree that nothing else matters but the chromosomes?

 

[BlueE]

You agree that nothing else matters but the chromosomes?

It establishes clear standards for gender eligibility and a starting point to protect the integrity and safety of women sport.

Otherwise you'll get this in many women's sport and worse in contact sports with serious injury concerns.

 

[BlueE]

How are you saying this with such certainty? The IBA is claiming Khelif has a DSD and the IOC minced words to ensure that they specifically didn't state she doesn't have a DSD (rather that this isn't a trans issue). At this stage, the presence of a DSD is speculation, but you are definitive about there not being one.

As for examples of going through male puberty, Caster Semenya is the very well known example, having 5α-Reductase 2 deficiency. Similarly, the top three placing (i.e. all the medalists) from the Rio 800 m women's track final were women with DSDs who had the advantage of testosterone levels in the male range to enhance physical performance.

Wikipedia article on the event:

All three medalists have been found to have the 46,XY karyotype and produce levels of testosterone in the male range,[4] which enables building of greater muscle mass and better processing of energy.[5] The IAAF has subsequently ruled that this gives them an unfair advantage. On May 8, 2019, the IAAF testosterone rule went into effect. Such athletes will be required to take testosterone suppressing drugs in order to compete with female athletes.[6]

Boxing gender row reignites controversy over women's 800m in Rio

Controversial gender-row boxer Imane Khelif's upcoming gold medal fight has reignited a row over the women's 800m at the Rio 2016 Olympics , in which all three medallists had high testosterone. levels

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[rank and file]

This might kick off soon.

‘You can’t put other people at risk’: Aussie boxer weighs into gender storm

A gender controversy has erupted at the Paris Olympics after an Italian boxer abandoned her bout against an opponent, who previously failed a gender test, and refused to shake hands.

amp.smh.com.au

Just a little bit.

While the big brains toss word salad,sharps are looking at the easiest Olympic fill up ever.

Both controversial women have punched their way into gold medal contention.
Go Girls!

 

[BlueE]

More details in this report by Alan Abramson on August 5 2024.

Paris 2024 women's boxing stirs so much emotion -- can facts take back the moment? | 3 Wire Sports

PARIS – If they had been running the tournament here at the Paris Games, International Boxing Assn. officials said Monday, the Algerian and Chinese Taipei fighters now in the medal rounds in women’s boxing, both figuring in a worldwide controversy, would never have been in the ring in the first inst

www.3wiresports.com

Wire Sports has seen the test results and a June 5, 2023 IBA letter to the IOC that says tests of Khelif, one in New Delhi, a prior test in Istanbul at the 2022 world championships, “concluded the boxer’s DNA was that of a male consisting of XY chromosomes.”

For both Khelif and Lin, the New Delhi test – from, as IBA disclosed Monday, the independent Dr Lal PathLabs – consists of three pages. In part:

The first page provides, along with basic identifying information for each athlete and date and time of sample collection, result summary – “abnormal” – and interpretation – “chromosome analysis reveals Male karyotype.”

The second page offers photographic representation of the 22 paired autosomes and then, for each athlete, further depicts an X and a Y chromosome.

Page three makes plain that the lab is a “national reference lab” and, as well, accredited by CAP, the Northfield, Illinois-based College of American Pathologists, and certified by the ISO, the Swiss-based International Organization for Standardization.
...

As Duke law professor Dorian Lambelet Campbell writes in a lengthy piece published Saturday in Quillette, the IOC is “at odds” with leading federations such as World Aquatics and World Athletics, whose rules, adopted in recent years, “prioritize fairness and the preservation of the female category for female athletes.”

Getting in the way of this sort of sensible, matter-of-fact discussion – and, to be direct, the application in boxing in particular of such a rule for athlete safety – is the tumult that has erupted here.
...

Following “many complaints from several coaches,” IBA said in a statement it also put out Monday, the two boxers “agreed to gender testing.”

At the Istanbul worlds in 2022, each gave a blood sample. Collection was made May 17, one at 1:38 p.m., the other at 1:39 p.m. The independent Sistem Tip Lab, which as the IBA statement notes carries license No. 194-MRK, issued reports May 24.

For both athletes, there is a summary on page 2 that says the same thing. Translated per Google from Turkish:

“Result: In the interphase nucleus FISH analysis performed on cells obtained from your patient's material, 100 interphase nuclei were examined with the Cytocell brand Prenatal Enumeration Probe Kit. An XY signal pattern was observed in all of them.”

At those Istanbul worlds, Khelif was the 63-kilogram silver medalist, Lin the 57-kilo gold medalist.

In its statement, IBA said the sole Istanbul test was “not enough to make a decision with respective consequences,” reasoning that with “one test, [a] mistake is possible.” It said lawyers “advised to monitor the situation and to contact the IOC.”

It asserted it informed the IOC but got no response.

“The situation was completely new to boxing, and IBA, following numerous consultations, decided to conduct a second testing before disqualifying the boxers,” it said. This is problematic because, at that moment, after the Istanbul worlds, heading to New Delhi, the IBA had no specific rule about athletes for which it had evidence of XY chromosomes. “However,” the statement goes on to say, “the second testing could only be conducted in a neutral country and within the IBA competition period.”

Thus, at the 2023 women’s words in New Delhi, a second test for each. This is the Dr Lal PathLabs test. Blood from both athletes was collected at 10:30 a.m. on March 17. Reports were produced March 23.

As IBA said in its statement, “The findings were absolutely identical to the first test results.”
On June 5, 2023, IBA sent a letter to IOC sports director Kit McConnell regarding the matter.

On June 16, McConnell sent a reply acknowledging receipt of the June 5 letter.

Both athletes, meantime, were afforded the chance to appeal the DQs to the Swiss-based Court of Arbitration for Sport.

 

[Chief]

It establishes clear standards for gender eligibility and a starting point to protect the integrity and safety of women sport.

Otherwise you'll get this in many women's sport and worse in contact sports with serious injury concerns.

View attachment 2072568

What is "this"?

 

[Gough]

Me over here thinking there'd be some kind of retreat when it became obvious this was just more Russian nonsense.

More evidence here.

 

[Chief]

More evidence here.

SHOCK!

Country that harasses and criminalises LGBT people accuses everyone else of pushing an "agenda". Has no trouble sending LGBT people to die in a fruitless war of expansion.

 

[BlueE]

What is "this"?

As I have repeatedly said in posts that you are trolling by taking one or two words from, to protect the integrity and safety of women's sport.

For example.

The Court of Arbitration for Sport decision that rejected Semenya's challenge in a 2–1 decision, agreed with the ruling athletic body's decision that the policy for athletes with DSD was "necessary, reasonable and proportionate"

Although the CAS agreed with Semenya that the rules were discriminatory, it concluded that this discrimination was "a necessary, reasonable and proportionate means of achieving the IAAF's aim of preserving the integrity of female athletics".

 

[Chief]

As I have repeatedly said in posts that you are trolling by taking one or two words from, to protect the integrity and safety of women sport.

You posted a photo of three black women with medals.

What is anyone supposed to think?

For example.

The Court of Arbitration for Sport decision that rejected Semenya's challenge in a 2–1 decision, agreed with the ruling athletic body's decision that the policy for athletes with DSD was "necessary, reasonable and proportionate"

Although the CAS agreed with Semenya that the rules were discriminatory, it concluded that this discrimination was "a necessary, reasonable and proportionate means of achieving the IAAF's aim of preserving the integrity of female athletics".

Trying to find any trans or intersex women dominating any high level sport.

Coming up blank here.

IAAF - that's not the IOC is it?

 

[BlueE]

You posted a photo of three black women with medals.

What is anyone supposed to think?


Trying to find any trans or intersex women dominating any high level sport.

Coming up blank here.

IAAF - that's not the IOC is it?

That's racist.

They were three XY DSD or 'intersex' women in this well known case finishing 1st, 2nd and 3rd at Rio Olympics women's 800m running, that has already been mentioned and recently reported on in the linked article relating to the current boxing dispute.

The IOC allows decisions on female eligibility to individual sporting bodies like the IAAF. Athletics and swimming are two that established clear gender guidelines for these Olympics that are based on research and science.

From the last linked wire sports report, "At those Istanbul worlds (2022), Khelif was the 63-kilogram silver medalist, Lin the 57-kilo gold medalist."

 

[BlueE]

More evidence here.

This is not evidence. Has nothing to do with competition rules or XY test results or establishing facts.

The political dispute between the IOC and IBA has been discussed in many of the articles I've linked.

The root of the political dispute is the IOC’s relationship – or lack of one – with Russia, personified by IBA president Umar Kremlev, who is not only Russian but has ties with top Russian leadership.

Kremlev tends to say what he thinks. A moment from Monday’s news conference would encapsulate this. One of the questions to Kremlev: did he refer to Bach as a “sodomite” and was that appropriate? Speaking by video link, Kremlev declared that he – Kremlev – was speaking as a devout Christian and the remark was sparked by his views of IOC conduct: “I think they have been making fun of Christianity and the Bible.”

Meanwhile, because of Kremlev’s Kremlin relationships, some significant number of media outlets are highly disinclined to believe anything the IBA says. Because almost no journalists in the Western media have spoken to Kremlev personally, fewer still have reason to trust a word he says. This why-trust-the-IBA is a position the IOC has explicitly sought to encourage – indeed, not disputing that the IBA told it in June 2023 about the XY tests but saying, essentially, without offering evidence on the point itself about the tests, that nothing the IBA says is credible.

This is why getting to the facts in this matter is so essential.

Paris 2024 women's boxing stirs so much emotion -- can facts take back the moment? | 3 Wire Sports

PARIS – If they had been running the tournament here at the Paris Games, International Boxing Assn. officials said Monday, the Algerian and Chinese Taipei fighters now in the medal rounds in women’s boxing, both figuring in a worldwide controversy, would never have been in the ring in the first inst

www.3wiresports.com

 

[BlueE]

XY Athletes in Women’s Olympic Boxing: The Paris 2024 Controversy Explained

The historical, political, and medical context of the Imane Khelif and Lin Yu-ting cases.

quillette.com

Mod Edit: Quilette

Quillette - Bias and Credibility

QUESTIONABLE SOURCE A questionable source exhibits one or more of the following: extreme bias, consistent promotion of propaganda/conspiracies, poor or no

mediabiasfactcheck.com

Overall, we rate Quillette Questionable based on the promotion of racial pseudoscience, the use of poor sources, and failed fact checks.

This link rises to the level of misinformation.

 

[ShanDog]

"Nah because RuSsiA," is a very poor argument.

Either the tests are legit and show there is something further to be investigated, or they aren't. The IBA is still trying to be a credible boxing organisation, so for them to die on this hill when it's all a puppetry farce would be highly unusual to put it mildly.

 

[Chief]

"Nah because RuSsiA," is a very poor argument.

It's a very good point to start when thinking about these types of issues.

Do a DNA test, if the person complaining about any LGBT issue is Russian, they should be excluded until they can pass further tests to prove they aren't part of a regime that demonises and attacks LGBT+ people.

 

[Gralin]

Ah yes quillette

 

[Malifice]

And there are only two sexes. Intersex is not a third sex. Sex is indeed binary.

In the Dominican Republic, güevedoces (from Spanish: güevedoce, from Dominican Spanish güevos a los doce "testicles[1] at twelve") are children with a specific intersex variation. Güevedoces are classified as girls when they are born but, around the age of 12, they start developing male genitalia. This is due to a deficiency in the production of 5α-reductase, an enzyme involved in the metabolism of testosterone to dihydrotestosterone.[2][3][4][5][6] The phenomenon also reportedly occurs in Turkey[7] and in Papua New Guinea, where it is called kwolu-aatmwol (literally 'a female thing changing into a male thing'[8]) by the Sambia people.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Güevedoce

Literally born women, and at puberty become boys.

They exist, and clearly prove 'sex is binary, and there are only two sexes' wrong.

Assuming your child was born with the same genetic mutation that causes the above. Do you raise them as a girl until they turn into boys, or do you raise them as boys (despite them being girls)?

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

Ah yes quillette

Quillette VERY MUCH assisted in building a list that the Far Right might use to murder journalists;

It’s Not Your Imagination: The Journalists Writing About Antifa Are Often Their Cheerleaders

The intellectual dishonesty and disreputable methods used by these journalists are as bad as the behavior they aim to cure.

quillette.com

 

[ShanDog]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Güevedoce

Literally born women, and at puberty become boys.

They exist, and clearly prove 'sex is binary, and there are only two sexes' wrong.

Assuming your child was born with the same genetic mutation that causes the above. Do you raise them as a girl until they turn into boys, or do you raise them as boys (despite them being girls)?

Where's the mystery third sex? No such thing.

 

[Malifice]

Where's the mystery third sex? No such thing.

Wut?

So are those people I showed you above men or women?

And hypothetically, if (instead of a few smaller population groups scattered around the globe) 1/3 of all people on the planet start off as women, and then turn into men, 1/3 are always men, and 1/3 are always women, would your 'there are only two sexes' argument be different?

Would we not (as a species) have three sexes (and likely three genders) at that point?

Your entire premise is reductive. Even when presented with actual people that exist and prove your basic premise wrong, you're now trying to reductively put mixed sex and intersex people into one of your two boxes you assume exist.

Try it the other way around. Deductive reasoning. If intersex people exist (and they do) and those people have sexual characteristics of more than one sex (and they do) then (logically) there cant just be two sexes.

 

[ShanDog]

Wut?

So are those people I showed you above men or women?

And hypothetically, if (instead of a few smaller population groups scattered around the globe) 1/3 of all people on the planet start off as women, and then turn into men, 1/3 are always men, and 1/3 are always women, would your 'there are only two sexes' argument be different?

Would we not (as a species) have three sexes (and likely three genders) at that point?

Your entire premise is reductive. Even when presented with actual people that exist and prove your basic premise wrong, you're now trying to reductively put mixed sex and intersex people into one of your two boxes you assume exist.

Try it the other way around. Deductive reasoning. If intersex people exist (and they do) and those people have sexual characteristics of more than one sex (and they do) then (logically) there cant just be two sexes.

I'll try again, but I'm limited as I don't have sock puppets to go to the next stage of explanation

Even in your silly hypothetical, you are only using two sexes. Where is the third? What's it called? What role in reproduction does it play?

In reality, intersex conditions are disorders of one of the two sexes. There's no novel third sex with a unique function created by any intersex condition. Sex is therefore binary.

 

[Malifice]

Even in your silly hypothetical, you are only using two sexes. Where is the third? What's it called? What role in reproduction does it play?

You're using reductive reasoning again.

The third sex would likely have its own gender roles (like the people I described above actually have in societies where they exist in sufficient numbers):

Most cultures use a gender binary, having two genders (boys/men and girls/women).[3][4][5] In cultures with a third or fourth gender, these genders may represent very different things. To Native Hawaiians and Tahitians, māhū is an intermediate state between man and woman known as "gender liminality".[6][7] Some traditional Diné Native Americans of the Southwestern United States acknowledge a spectrum of four genders: feminine woman, masculine woman, feminine man, and masculine man.[8] The term "third gender" has also been used to describe the hijras of South Asia[9] who have gained legal identity, fa'afafine of Polynesia, and Balkan sworn virgins.[10] A culture recognizing a third gender does not in itself mean that they were valued by that culture, and often is the result of explicit devaluation of women in that culture.[11]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_gender

There are already in existence societies with more than 2 genders, including societies with a large number of intersex people born into them.

Third genders (and non binary definitions of gender) already exist, as do intersex people. Can we at least acknowledge that reality before we move on with the debate?

In reality, intersex conditions are disorders of one of the two sexes.

Says who?

Why do I have a 'disorder' if my chromosomes are different from my junk?

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

In reality, intersex conditions are disorders of one of the two sexes. There's no novel third sex with a unique function created by any intersex condition. Sex is therefore binary.

A question I have is "should intersex people be 'cancelled' from being the gender they present as?"