Transgender - Part 2

[Gethelred]

Please be aware that the tolerance of anti-trans language on BF is at an all-time low. Jokes and insults that are trans-related, as well as anti-trans and bigoted rhetoric will be met with infractions, threadbans etc as required. It's a sensitive (and important) topic, so behave like well-mannered adults when discussing it, PARTICULARLY when disagreeing. This equally applies across the whole site.

 

[Ghost Patrol]

Because it's dumb and I don't want to.

Is intelligence binary as well?

 

[Ghost Patrol]

What sort of ads does google present after you google this stuff?

 

[Malifice]

That makes no sense. Not sure what's going on with you.

You literally just told me a person with XY Chromosomes (male) but who also has a vagina is 'a woman'.

So clearly, having exclusively male chromosomes does not matter, and its all down to sex organs as to what box you want to place someone inside of in your little binary 'male or female' worldview.

I'm not engaging any further

Aww come on.

I was really curious if you would define Maya (above) who has both XY and XX Chromosomes, plus a functioning penis and a vagina (but no functioning ovaries, womb or testicles or prostate) as either a 'man' or a 'woman'.

You have to choose one (in order for your binary system to make sense) and we then wind up with you either agreeing she's...

1: 'A Man with a vagina, and XX chromosomes' or
2: 'A Woman with a penis and XY chromosomes'

...and we haven't event stepped into the realm gender identity yet, we're still on the topic of biological sex!

Your argument is akin to this

You: 'There are only two colors of people, Blue and Yellow'.

Me: (Points to the existence of literally millions of [blue + yellow] = Green people).

You: Nope, Blue and Yellow only.




Maya (and millions more like her) exist. And they're not exclusively male, nor are they exclusively female.

If you ditched your reductive reasoning (trying to squeeze everyone into one of two boxes you assume exist) and instead approached the issue the other way around via deductive reasoning (looking at what exists, before deciding on what boxes there are), you wouldn't be feeling the level of cognitive dissonance you're feeling right now.

 

[BlueE]

I think we need to be a bit wary of 'officials from the IBA':



https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/...oxing-storm-has-russian-ties-troubled-history

The IBA (controlled by Umar Kremlev, a Russian Oligarch, and best mates with Putin) announced the pair had failed this mystery test immediately following the defeat of a Russian boxer:



https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/...oxing-storm-has-russian-ties-troubled-history

The test itself has been called into serious doubt by anyone who has a brain, and has been rejected by World Boxing as being a sham.

Boxing federations around the world have abandoned the IBA in droves (including Australia) due to concerns the entire organization is a Kremlin propaganda machine and more corrupt than Imelda Marcos.

Interestingly, the entire Boxing gender shitfight has been amplified by Russian bots and the usual Kremlin fake profiles and actors online. Russian trolls have spread viral stories about it online, seeking (among other things) to cook people into supporting the stance of the IBA, and furthering the culture wars that have seen them basically turn the USA upside down.

Which is of course why BlueE is here right now.

If there is one thing for certain, it's that BlueE believes whatever the Russians tell him to believe online.

Clearly, we need to be wary of officials from the IBA which has been addressed in detail in many of the links. As has the facts which you are wrong about on every level.

Just as you are wrong with the usual personal slurs and misinformation about me.

The tests were also described in detail and posted previously, but you have huge trouble reading or understanding anything except Wikipedia and then fail, or political propaganda feed to you, not facts.

Wire Sports has seen the test results and a June 5, 2023 IBA letter to the IOC that says tests of Khelif, one in New Delhi, a prior test in Istanbul at the 2022 world championships, “concluded the boxer’s DNA was that of a male consisting of XY chromosomes.”

The test itself for example: For both Khelif and Lin, the New Delhi test – from, as IBA disclosed Monday, the independent Dr Lal PathLabs – consists of three pages. In part:

The first page provides, along with basic identifying information for each athlete and date and time of sample collection, result summary – “abnormal” – and interpretation – “chromosome analysis reveals Male karyotype.”

The second page offers photographic representation of the 22 paired autosomes and then, for each athlete, further depicts an X and a Y chromosome.

Page three makes plain that the lab is a “national reference lab” and, as well, accredited by CAP, the Northfield, Illinois-based College of American Pathologists, and certified by the ISO, the Swiss-based International Organization for Standardization.

Paris 2024 women's boxing stirs so much emotion -- can facts take back the moment? | 3 Wire Sports

PARIS – If they had been running the tournament here at the Paris Games, International Boxing Assn. officials said Monday, the Algerian and Chinese Taipei fighters now in the medal rounds in women’s boxing, both figuring in a worldwide controversy, would never have been in the ring in the first inst

www.3wiresports.com

 

[Ghost Patrol]

Paris 2024 women's boxing stirs so much emotion -- can facts take back the moment? | 3 Wire Sports

PARIS – If they had been running the tournament here at the Paris Games, International Boxing Assn. officials said Monday, the Algerian and Chinese Taipei fighters now in the medal rounds in women’s boxing, both figuring in a worldwide controversy, would never have been in the ring in the first inst

www.3wiresports.com

If sex is binary, why is it called 3wiresports?

 

[Malifice]

Clearly, we need to be wary of officials from the IBA which has been addressed in detail in many of the links. As has the facts which you are wrong about on every level.

Just as you are wrong with the usual personal slurs and misinformation about me.

I just find it hilarious you're here promoting results of a test purportedly done by an organization run by a corrupt Russian Oligarch, and regurgitating official Kremlin talking points the Russians have been pushing online as if they're accepted facts in order to further culture wars in the West.

Again.

You always come down on the side of the Russians or on the side of the narrative they're pushing. Every single time.

The tests were also described in detail and posted previously, but you have huge trouble reading or understanding anything except Wikipedia and then fail, or political propaganda feed to you, not facts.

Wire Sports has seen the test results and a June 5, 2023 IBA letter to the IOC that says tests of Khelif, one in New Delhi, a prior test in Istanbul at the 2022 world championships, “concluded the boxer’s DNA was that of a male consisting of XY chromosomes.”

That test (if its true, if it exists and if was actually conducted impartially - which I doubt) doesn't confirm the boxer is male.

As has already been established (by ShanDog ) you can have 100 percent XY (male) chromosomes and also have a vagina and ovaries and a womb and thus 'still be a woman' (or at least not be a man).

1 in 80,000 people are born with this exact condition.

 

[kirsti]

The issues with DSD athletes that is the centre of the women's boxing at the Olympics has been clearly explained multiple times with research and science, adjudicated at CAS and been dealt with by some World Governing Bodies.

A few of us have given multiple examples, here is another.

Officials from the IBA have separately added that both fighters have XY chromosomes and high testosterone (“high T”) levels.

“High T” is one of the ways that testosterone levels outside of the female range tend to be described when one is speaking about an athlete in the female category. As you can see from Figure 1, immediately below, male and female T levels diverge at about the age of thirteen. Both Figure 1 and Figure 2 below make clear there’s no overlap in male and female T levels after early adolescence. Doping and being male are two ways that an adult athlete might have “high T.”

View attachment 2072997

A 2014 study, ‘Endocrine profiles in 693 elite athletes in the post-competition setting’, found that 16.5% of the ‘male’ athletes had low testosterone levels, and 13.7% of the ‘females’ had high testosterone levels, ‘with complete overlap between the sexes’.


The report concluded: ‘The IOC definition of a woman as one who has a ‘normal’ testosterone level is untenable’. In other words, elite athletes have testosterone levels that differ widely from those that might be considered ‘normal’ in the general public population.


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[Malifice]

Unhinged stalker mod and Freo hating sockpuppet mods unite.

Ignorance reigned and we all got wet.

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/...s-have-sought-to-undermine-the-paris-olympics

Da Comrade! Putin good! Like and share Comrade!

 

[ShanDog]

A 2014 study, ‘Endocrine profiles in 693 elite athletes in the post-competition setting’, found that 16.5% of the ‘male’ athletes had low testosterone levels, and 13.7% of the ‘females’ had high testosterone levels, ‘with complete overlap between the sexes’.


The report concluded: ‘The IOC definition of a woman as one who has a ‘normal’ testosterone level is untenable’. In other words, elite athletes have testosterone levels that differ widely from those that might be considered ‘normal’ in the general public population.


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

Did this account for normal testosterone levels for someone with a DSD in accordance with their sex, or just levels by gender?

 

[BlueE]

I just find it hilarious you're here promoting results of a test purportedly done by an organization run by a corrupt Russian Oligarch, and regurgitating official Kremlin talking points the Russians have been pushing online as if they're accepted facts in order to further culture wars in the West.

Again.

You always come down on the side of the Russians or on the side of the narrative they're pushing. Every single time.



That test (if its true, if it exists and if was actually conducted impartially - which I doubt) doesn't confirm the boxer is male.

As has already been established (by ShanDog ) you can have 100 percent XY chromosomes and also have a vagina and ovaries and a womb and thus 'still be a woman' (or at least not be a man).

1 in 80,000 people are born with this exact condition.

The tests in both 2022 and 2023 were done by independent accredited labs. The 2023 documented in detail.

What's hilarious is your Russia Russia Russia narrative which has left you in the Jungle with disproved narratives from 8 years ago.

You have no understanding of DSD, as shown by your misunderstanding of 'Guevedoces' who are biological males with misclassified genitals, not biological females.

Perhaps try to understand what has been linked already without the major gaslighting and personal slurs.

 

[BlueE]

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/...s-have-sought-to-undermine-the-paris-olympics

Da Comrade! Putin good! Like and share Comrade!

I rest my case.

 

[BlueE]

A 2014 study, ‘Endocrine profiles in 693 elite athletes in the post-competition setting’, found that 16.5% of the ‘male’ athletes had low testosterone levels, and 13.7% of the ‘females’ had high testosterone levels, ‘with complete overlap between the sexes’.


The report concluded: ‘The IOC definition of a woman as one who has a ‘normal’ testosterone level is untenable’. In other words, elite athletes have testosterone levels that differ widely from those that might be considered ‘normal’ in the general public population.


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Seems to differ significantly from 2020 JAMA publication.

Where is the link and publication published in?

 

[Malifice]

What's hilarious is your Russia Russia Russia narrative which has left you in the Jungle with disproved narratives from 8 years ago.

You're the one who always seems to come down with views that legit directly mirror the latest wave of Russian disinfo.

Including on this exact topic.

Maybe it's just a co-incidence. Maybe they've cooked you. Dunno. All I do know is that you can set your watch to it.

You have no understanding of DSD, as shown by your misunderstanding of 'Guevedoces' who are biological males with misclassified genitals, not biological females.

I didn't say they were 'biological females'. I said they were biologically intersex.

It was ShanDog who was trying to make the claim they were biological females.

He also made the claim that people with 100 percent XY chromosomes (male) with vaginas (people with Swyer syndrome) were 'women'.

Which is 1 in 80,000 people on the planet.

Do you agree with him that someone with a functioning vagina and womb, but who also has 100 percent XY chromosomes (Swyer syndrome) is a 'woman'? Or are they 'men'? Or are they 'intersex'?

https://www.cancer.gov/publications/dictionaries/cancer-terms/def/swyer-syndrome

 

[Gralin]

Did this account for normal testosterone levels for someone with a DSD in accordance with their sex, or just levels by gender?

Did you know DSD is a relatively recently coined term and not a very nice one really

Intersex Human Rights Australia – For the health and human rights of people with innate variations of sex characteristics

ihra.org.au

It is important to note that an invitation-only meeting in Chicago in 2006 reported in “Summary of Consensus Statement on Intersex Disorders and Their Management“ coined a controversial new term, “Disorders of Sex Development” aimed at replacing the term intersex in medical settings:

“disorders of sex development” (DSD) is proposed to indicate congenital conditions with atypical development of chromosomal, gonadal, or anatomic sex.

Stated due to “[a]dvances in molecular genetic causes of abnormal sexual development and heightened awareness of the ethical and patient-advocacy issues“, this new language reasserted medical authority in the light of successful intersex activism that identified our issues as human rights, and is strongly contested. It pathologises intersex variations as inherently disordered, and according to Morgan Holmes, “reinstitutionalises clinical power to delineate and silence those marked by the diagnosis“. Intersex Human Rights Australia opposes use of the term DSD because of these factors.


Also you're its all binary doesn't really match up with the Sex Discrimination act amendment

The Commonwealth Sex Discrimination Amendment (Sexual Orientation, Gender Identity and Intersex Status) Act 2013 added the following definition to federal anti-discrimination law:

intersex status means the status of having physical, hormonal or genetic features that are: (a) neither wholly female nor wholly male; or (b) a combination of female and male; or (c) neither female nor male.

Note that this definition deliberately contains no barrier preventing people perceived to be intersex from gaining protection from the law. The definition of “intersex status” is also differentiated from both “sex” and “gender identity”.

 

[Malifice]

Also you're its all binary doesn't really match up with the Sex Discrimination act amendment

Nor does it match up with observed reality.

He posits the existence of a world where everyone is either black or white.

You then point to the existence of literally millions of grey people, and they're suddenly also black or white... despite being grey.

I'm all for reductive logic to an extent (it's where most reasoning starts). But when your experiment proves your thesis wrong, it's not time to ditch your results; it's time to switch to deductive reasoning and to reassess your thesis.

 

[Gralin]

Nor does it match up with observed reality.

He posits the existence of a world where everyone is either black or white.

You then point to the existence of literally millions of grey people, and they're suddenly also black or white... despite being grey.

I'm all for reductive logic to an extent (it's where most reasoning starts). But when your experiment proves your thesis wrong, it's not time to ditch your results; it's time to switch to deductive reasoning and to reassess your thesis.

the other one is arguing the numbers are lower so that makes it ok

 

[BlueE]

You're the one who always seems to come down with views that legit directly mirror the latest wave of Russian disinfo.

Including on this exact topic.

Maybe it's just a co-incidence. Maybe they've cooked you. Dunno. All I do know is that you can set your watch to it.


I didn't say they were 'biological females'. I said they were biologically intersex.

It was ShanDog who was trying to make the claim they were biological females.

He also made the claim that people with 100 percent XY chromosomes (male) with vaginas (people with Swyer syndrome) were 'women'.

Do you agree with him that someone with a functioning vagina and womb, but who also has 100 percent XY chromosomes (Swyer syndrome) is a woman? Or are they 'men'? Or are they 'intersex'?

https://www.cancer.gov/publications/dictionaries/cancer-terms/def/swyer-syndrome

No. You are unhinged.

You are now confusing two different conditions among some of the 60 under the umbrella of DSD.

If you actually bothered to read any of the research on the DSD condition you misrepresented from your Wiki below, you clearly claim they were "literally born women"

They were not born female or women. They were born XY biological males, but with genitals that had no visible testes or penis and what appeared to be a vagina. It is only when they approached puberty and testosterone was produced that the penis grew and testicles descended, or were surgically released from inside the body.

They were misclassified as female at birth. There was not a vagina, only appeared to be one.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Güevedoce

Literally born women, and at puberty become boys.

They exist, and clearly prove 'sex is binary, and there are only two sexes' wrong.

Assuming your child was born with the same genetic mutation that causes the above. Do you raise them as a girl until they turn into boys, or do you raise them as boys (despite them being girls)?

 

[Malifice]

the other one is arguing the numbers are lower so that makes it ok

The facts are that sex is not binary. Intersex people exist.

Womens sports also exist. And the line of demarcation between mens sports and womens sports is there to allow women to compete fairly.

The issues with intersex people are complex. Where do we draw the line? Where do they get to compete? Forcing some intersex people to compete with men could very well be unfair to the athlete. Allowing some intersex athletes to compete with women could also be unfair (to the women).

In the present examples both women are apparently intersex (but identify as women, and present more or less as women, and have lived their whole lives as women).

For mine they compete in the women's competition.

 

[Malifice]

No. You are unhinged.

You didn't answer my question.

Do you agree with ShanDog that someone with a functioning vagina and womb, but who also has 100 percent XY chromosomes (Swyer syndrome) is a 'woman'?

Or are they 'men'?

Or are they 'intersex'?

https://www.cancer.gov/publications/dictionaries/cancer-terms/def/swyer-syndrome

Pick one.

 

[ShanDog]

Any others angles people want to try to discredit me with? I really don't mind, keep tagging me. If you don't understand what I'm saying at this point, it's on you.

 

[_Mike_]

Geez this thread has become somewhat awkward

 

[kirsti]

Clair Lemon misrepresent the research of Roger Pielke JR in her article and in the Twitter exchange with Roger.

Once again there is a complete cross over in T levels and XY need 10 times more T than XX to maintain daily health.

You peeps are comparing apples to oranges you are not even at the start line when it comes to androgens.




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[kirsti]

The first report on endocrine hormone profiles was in a group of 693 elite athletes across a range of Olympic Sports in 2014

https://doi.org/10.1111%2Fcen.12445

Serum testosterone in 445 elite male athletes. The horizontal line is at 10 nmol/l. There were 113 (25.4%) men with a testosterone value less than 10 nmol/l.

Serum testosterone in 231 elite female athletes. Horizontal line is at 10 nmol/l. There were 11 of 231 (4.8%) athletes with testosterone level above 10 nmol/l; 3 of 88 swimmers, 2 of 25 rowers and 6 of 48 track and field athletes.

Each sport is represented by a numerical code and M = men and W = women: 1-Power Lifting (18 M and 1 W), 2-Basketball (27 M and 14 W), 3-Football (Soccer; 37 M), 4 Swimming (100 M and 91 W), 5-Marathon (1 W), 6-Canoeing (7 M and 1 W), 7-Rowing (36 M and 25 W), 8-Cross Country Skiing (8 m and 9 W), 9-Alpine Skiing (11 M and 12 W), 10-Weight Lifting (10 M and 7 W), 11-Judo (26 M), 12-Bandy (19 M), 13-Ice Hockey (38 M), 14 Handball (23 M and 29 W) and 15-Track and Field (95 M and 49 W)

 

[kirsti]

Coleman is a member of Nancy Hogsheads and Martina’s Working Group. I was also a member.

The SWSWG website cites a 2018 paper in the journal Clinical Endocrinology to assert that there is no overlap between female and male testosterone ranges.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/cen.13840

Readers who click on the link to that paper will notice that there is a prominently-featured link at the top of the article to “corrections to this article.”the journal fundamental errors in the 2018 paper.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/cen.14068

Identification of errors resulted in the subsequent publication of a long Erratum,

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/cen.14068

characterized as a “massive correction.”

Paper used to support ban on Caster Semenya competing earns massive correction

Caster Semenya The authors of a controversial paper on what constitutes “normal” hormone levels in men and women — and, by implication, “male” and “female” athletes — are set to i…

retractionwatch.com

n its FAQ, the Working Group cited the Clinical Endocrinology paper but failed to acknowledge the “massive correction.”

The correction acknowledged that there was in fact an overlap between male and female testosterone ranges.

In a FAQ provided by the Working Group, they ask and answer: “Don't some healthy females produce testosterone in the "male" range? No.” They cite this definitive answer to a paper published in 2020in the Journal of the American Medical Association.

But in fact, that paper’s finding are completely to the contrary (emphasis added):

Also a study of the Endocrine profiles in 693 elite athletes in the post-competition setting’, found that 16.5% of the ‘male’ athletes had low testosterone levels, and 13.7% of the ‘females’ had high testosterone levels, ‘with complete overlap between the sexes’.

Endocrine profiles in 693 elite athletes in the postcompetition setting - PubMed

Hormone profiles from elite athletes differ from usual reference ranges. Individual results are dependent on a number of factors including age, gender and physique. Differences in profiles between sports suggest that an individual's profile may contribute to his/her proficiency in a particular...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

The Conclusions of the study read: Hormone profiles from elite athletes differ from usual reference ranges. Individual results are dependent on a number of factors including age, gender and physique. Differences in profiles between sports suggest that an individual's profile may contribute to his/her proficiency in a particular sport. The IOC definition of a woman as one who has a 'normal' testosterone level is untenable. https://twitter.com/messages/media/1382020106008502278


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[The Tilt]

Those are two groups of males, Kristi, with the same DSD (46 XY 5ARD). I'm not surprised they have similar levels of testosterone.