Transgender - Part 2

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Please be aware that the tolerance of anti-trans language on BF is at an all-time low. Jokes and insults that are trans-related, as well as anti-trans and bigoted rhetoric will be met with infractions, threadbans etc as required. It's a sensitive (and important) topic, so behave like well-mannered adults when discussing it, PARTICULARLY when disagreeing. This equally applies across the whole site.
 
10571z said:
“The Flying Bats have five transgender players, scored an impressive 59 goals in the Premier League Women’s Division, conceding only three. But their latest 12-0 victory has some continuing to question their participation in female competition.”

Seems fair




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I don't know how anyone could enjoy success in a sporting competition where they may have an unfair advantage over their competition. It would feel like a hollow victory to me and surely you would have some concern that you'd be impacting future women's participation in sports with these kind of results.
 
Gralin said:
I agree it seems fair
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They have an unfair advantage. The results show they have an unfair advantage. Your post tells me everything I need to know about your ability to look at this situation with your eyes open.

"oh but the daily telegraph"

What matters is the content of the article. This tactic of dismissing everything that doesn't suit someone's narrative by rubbishing the source is tired and empty.

Anyway.... I can see nobody is going the change anyone's mind here, or even really be open to a logical discussion on the subject so I'll see myself out.
 
Gralin said:
It's paywalled

It's also the daily telegraph and I don't need to read the article to know the kind of content they run with daily

Why is a LGBTQIA team being successful in a local football competition even on your radar?

Could it be because the culture war muck rakers at the daily tele found it and published an article?
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disagrees with article.

admits hasn't read article.

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Gralin said:
It's pay walled
It's also the daily telegraph

Their business model is outrage clickbait

They don't give a shit about fairness or equality
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to be fair neither do you if you think trans athletes competing with women is fair.
 
HirdsTheWord said:
to be fair neither do you if you think trans athletes competing with women is fair.
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I don't subscribe to the idea that trans woman automatically have an unfair advantage all the time in all sports and in all cases

so I have a rather different idea of what is fair

but i also think that fairness in sport is arbitrary at best, the playing field is never level and advantage exists in all competitive sport already

singling out one group for this level of attack is not about fairness
 
10571z said:
Why are there so many examples of Trans women being successful at women’s events but very limited of Trans men? (Yes there are some)

Do we think Trans men could play NFL, NBA, AFL, NRL? Why not? If there is no advantage either way why isn’t this happening equally in both male and female sports?
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because that doesn't work for outrage clickbait

it also undermines the argument used to say that trans women have an unfair advantage, if trans men are out there beating cis men

this is an older article published 3 years ago

www.insidehook.com

What About the Trans Athletes Who Compete — And Win — in Boys Sports?

On the oft-overlooked case of America’s supposedly "disadvantaged" transmasculine athletes
www.insidehook.com www.insidehook.com

but the idea that what reporting we see on any topic is balanced would be foolish
 
It's because males don't need to worry about transmen. Biological males only worry about other biological males when it comes to physical confrontation or competition in 99% of circumstances. If a transman has been on the juice long enough to become physically imposing, then bully for them - they become part of the already existing social landscape for most men. Literally nothing changes for us. That's why it's so easy for male TRAs to sit up on their soapbox and pooh-pooh the concerns of women, and also why it's so damn disappointing that it happens.
 
Gethelred said:
I'm sorry, but can you prove that? This looks rather... dubious, scientifically.
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No I can't quantitatively prove that. It's a comment on social relations and perception that I think most people would agree with.

How often do we see public campaigns looking to change attitudes that say men just shouldn't risk it by walking alone at night? Or men dressing too provocatively and are "asking for it" if they are sexually assaulted? If a woman walks into a men's toilet, how many men in that bathroom do you think will have a bodily affect of instant fear compared to if the genders were reversed?

How often have you been in the presence of a female that has made you concerned about your capability to physically defend yourself? Obviously if they are waving knives around and you're unarmed, it's a different issue. But without any other major factor - how often?

It's never happened to me. And I acknowledge that I am a very large and strong man who knows how to handle myself to a reasonable degree, so I don't represent the average male. But regardless, I bet the majority of males aren't physically afraid of women who are bigger than them anyway!

What situations am I overlooking to make you so dubious about this issue?
 
ShanDog said:
No I can't quantitatively prove that. It's a comment on social relations and perception that I think most people would agree with.

How often do we see public campaigns looking to change attitudes that say men just shouldn't risk it by walking alone at night? Or men dressing too provocatively and are "asking for it" if they are sexually assaulted? If a woman walks into a men's toilet, how many men in that bathroom do you think will have a bodily affect of instant fear compared to if the genders were reversed?
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Your post represents the sociological state of society under patriarchy pretty well here, in that men do not have to behave as though afraid within certain contexts (I'd argue that - to an extent - it's an anglocentric perspective as there are other places worldwide in which men absolutely have to be afraid in public spaces, but that's a tangent for another thread and another time) but I feel like the problem you're flagging is an exceedingly weird direction to approach the situation from.

The problem with this isn't that trans men pose no threat to other men, but that women do not feel safe in public spaces after dark.

It's a weird thing to say to argue that men do not need to be afraid when no-one should.
ShanDog said:
How often have you been in the presence of a female that has made you concerned about your capability to physically defend yourself? Obviously if they are waving knives around and you're unarmed, it's a different issue. But without any other major factor - how often?
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I mean, I've been present when a tiny woman shorter and lighter than me went into a meth induced psychotic episode.

Physical fear is based on the expected. Do I think all things being equal that she posed small threat to me? Probably. But I had no idea how she went from smiles and happy to throwing hands and feet at everything within reach within 5 minutes and needing six people to physically take her away.
ShanDog said:
It's never happened to me. And I acknowledge that I am a very large and strong man who knows how to handle myself to a reasonable degree, so I don't represent the average male. But regardless, I bet the majority of males aren't physically afraid of women who are bigger than them anyway!
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I think this is rather subjective.

You're not a small dude, and you've a military background. You keep yourself fit, you're intelligent. You have a healthy sense of self image. An awful lot of people - men and women alike - do not have that; more than 50% of society is obese.

I think at the very least most men who haven't been in a fight fall into two camps: those who don't know what they don't know (and as a consequence aren't afraid and think they'd be good at it) and those who are afraid of what they don't know. And then you've the patriarchal nature of society sitting on top of all that.

It's a jumbled mess, rather than being a clean image or dichotomy.
ShanDog said:
What situations am I overlooking to make you so dubious about this issue?
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Trans people represent an extreme minority within the population; I don't have stats, but last I looked it sat at around 2 percent. Of that two percent, trans men would represent half again, give or take a percentage point or two. Trans men also do not have the same standards for passing that trans women do; it's easier to appear masculine presenting than it is to appear feminine in most cases.

You're not really going to know if the person who's having a crack or swinging a punch at you is trans. For men - who think in pretty straight lines most of the time anyway - nothing changes because the chance of someone taking a swing at them in day to day life is pretty low anyway.

It's an extremely low percentage chance of a low percentage occurence; why worry about it?
 
Gethelred said:
Your post represents the sociological state of society under patriarchy pretty well here, in that men do not have to behave as though afraid within certain contexts (I'd argue that - to an extent - it's an anglocentric perspective as there are other places worldwide in which men absolutely have to be afraid in public spaces, but that's a tangent for another thread and another time) but I feel like the problem you're flagging is an exceedingly weird direction to approach the situation from.
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You're talking in broad brushes here when my post is fairly limited - it's about comparing the perceived threat level between the sexes. I don't see how that's a weird angle to approach this from given there has been such a big push for years to recognise male violence against women as a real issue worthy of everyone's attention!
Gethelred said:
The problem with this isn't that trans men pose no threat to other men, but that women do not feel safe in public spaces after dark.

It's a weird thing to say to argue that men do not need to be afraid when no-one should.
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My post has to be taken in the context of what I was replying to - why attention isn't given to the plight of transmen in the media. Of course in an ideal world nobody would be afraid to walk at night. But for the moment, both men and women walking at night are afraid of the the same thing - biological men.


Gethelred said:
It's an extremely low percentage chance of a low percentage occurence; why worry about it?
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It's easy to rationalise the dangers away, but try telling that to women who already worry about their physical safety more than anyone should ever have to. It's like trying to quote stats about the safety of air travel to someone who is afraid to fly - it's very unlikely to make them unafraid anymore.

So taking it back to the initial point of discussion, transmen aren't campaigned against in the media or online as a concern for males' safety because they simply aren't seen as such.
 

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Gralin said:
I don't subscribe to the idea that trans woman automatically have an unfair advantage all the time in all sports and in all cases

so I have a rather different idea of what is fair

but i also think that fairness in sport is arbitrary at best, the playing field is never level and advantage exists in all competitive sport already

singling out one group for this level of attack is not about fairness
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You don't have to subscribe to it, but its real. Women are becoming more and more unhappy with it.

there are constant examples of trans women entering and just straight dominating women competitions. You think its just a coincidence?

You are just basically trading fairness for trans people, over fairness for women.
 
Last edited:
Gralin said:
I don't subscribe to the idea that trans woman automatically have an unfair advantage all the time in all sports and in all cases

so I have a rather different idea of what is fair

but i also think that fairness in sport is arbitrary at best, the playing field is never level and advantage exists in all competitive sport already

singling out one group for this level of attack is not about fairness
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Your idea is wrong
 
adammania9 said:
Your idea is wrong
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Dude you cheered on cops tasing a 95 year old woman with dementia you thinking I have the wrong idea is good news to me
 
Gralin said:
Dude you cheered on cops tasing a 95 year old woman with dementia you thinking I have the wrong idea is good news to me
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I shouldn’t have to tell a mod to stop trolling and throwing threads off topic. I’m happy to discuss any topics in their relevant threads cheers
 
adammania9 said:
I shouldn’t have to tell a mod to stop trolling and throwing threads off topic. I’m happy to discuss any topics in their relevant threads cheers
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Well you didn't give me much to go on with "you're wrong"

But also like I said, your idea of right is something I have previous experience with so I'm not too worried
 
Oh no I've been champed

A fatal blow

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Transgender - Part 2

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