Transgender - Part 2

[Gethelred]

Please be aware that the tolerance of anti-trans language on BF is at an all-time low. Jokes and insults that are trans-related, as well as anti-trans and bigoted rhetoric will be met with infractions, threadbans etc as required. It's a sensitive (and important) topic, so behave like well-mannered adults when discussing it, PARTICULARLY when disagreeing. This equally applies across the whole site.

 

[Malifice]

A question I have is "should intersex people be 'cancelled' from being the gender they present as?"

Intersex people already are cancelled from being the gender (intersex) they were born as and present as in a lot of occasions in any event.

Parents basically being put in a position where they have to choose which box (boy or girl) to put them in, and accepted practice (until recently) being to give them surgery or hormone treatment to get them to fit in that box a little easier.

Note how anti Trans people totally are on board with that surgery and hormone treatment on kids.

Hypocrites.

Hilariously its likely to stop their child from being persecuted by 'there are only two gender' people later on, and not just let their kids live their lives in the body they were born with.

 

[ShanDog]

You're using reductive reasoning again.

The third sex would likely have its own gender roles (like the people I described above actually have in societies where they exist in sufficient numbers):



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_gender

There are already in existence societies with more than 2 genders, including societies with a large number of intersex people born into them.

Third genders (and non binary definitions of gender) already exist, as do intersex people. Can we at least acknowledge that reality before we move on with the debate?



Says who?

Why do I have a 'disorder' if my chromosomes are different from my junk?

You're conflating sex and gender now. I feel like you aren't quite sure of your own terms and it's the source of the confusion.

In any case, you could yell into the wind about this as much as you want, but you'll need to convince more than just me about it, since what I have said is the accepted medical consensus.

 

[ShanDog]

A question I have is "should intersex people be 'cancelled' from being the gender they present as?"

Is there a particular reason you're asking this of me?

 

[BlueE]

It's a very good point to start when thinking about these types of issues.

Do a DNA test, if the person complaining about any LGBT issue is Russian, they should be excluded until they can pass further tests to prove they aren't part of a regime that demonises and attacks LGBT+ people.

And I thought you were a fan of science or Independent Court of Arbitration for Sport decisions.

Maybe not.

What about Caitlin Jenner and Matina Navratilova, well known supporters for women's and LGBTQ rights?

Said Navratilova: “Alongside my career in sport I have a long history of advocating for women’s and LGBTQ rights. In sport, however, advocating for women’s rights means talking sex and sex-linked biology. The performance gap between male athletes and female athletes emerges from the onset of male puberty, and from that point forward even second-tier males can beat the very best females.”

That gap is due largely to the effects of testosterone, she said.

Group co-founded by Coleman addresses transgender athletes in girls’ and women’s sport

The Women's Sports Policy Working Group launched on the eve of National Girls & Women in Sports Day with a set of recommendations addressing the inclusion of trans girls and trans women in sport.

law.duke.edu

 

[BlueE]

You're conflating sex and gender now. I feel like you aren't quite sure of your own terms and it's the source of the confusion.

In any case, you could yell into the wind about this as much as you want, but you'll need to convince more than just me about it, since what I have said is the accepted medical consensus.

Not only that Mal has misinterpreted his Wiki article which I've posted and discussed more in depth research on the

“Guevedoces” (literally, penis at 12) of Dominican Republic are biological males (46XY) with female-appearing external genitalia from birth until puberty; at puberty, they develop a penis, the testes descend, muscles and a male psychosexual orientation develop.

They are biological males with their sex wrongly classified at birth.

 

[Chief]

The performance gap between male athletes and female athletes emerges from the onset of male puberty,

Again, and this is common among people who refuse to acknowledge anything but male and female, man and woman, you're talking about cis men and cis women when the issues in this thread are about trans and intersex people.

So why are you acting as if you're the arbiter of what is and isn't science when this simple distinction seems beyond you?

 

[BlueE]

Ah yes quillette

So nothing to say about the facts clearly presented in the article that the author a respected Swiss-American professor at Duke Law School, where she specialises in scholarship on women, sports, children, and law.

And who is US and Swiss athletics champion and co authored reports in the Washington Post with Matina Navratilova on the issues?

Doriane Coleman

Doriane Coleman is the Thomas L. Perkins Distinguished Professor of Law at Duke Law School, where she specializes in interdisciplinary scholarship focused on women, children, medicine, sports, and law. Her work, single- and co-authored, has been published in numerous U.S. and international...

law.duke.edu

 

[Gralin]

So nothing to say about the facts clearly presented in the article that the author a respected Swiss-American professor at Duke Law School, where she specialises in scholarship on women, sports, children, and law.

And who is US and Swiss athletics champion and co authored reports in the Washington Post with Matina Navratilova on the issues?

Doriane Coleman

Doriane Coleman is the Thomas L. Perkins Distinguished Professor of Law at Duke Law School, where she specializes in interdisciplinary scholarship focused on women, children, medicine, sports, and law. Her work, single- and co-authored, has been published in numerous U.S. and international...

law.duke.edu

who is Matina Navratilova?

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

Is there a particular reason you're asking this of me?

Nah, just wondering in general. I'm not aiming any jabs at you, Shan. Just wondering. Because it does kind of look like people with sexual characteristics of both sexes ARE being cancelled by some in society. At least it appears that way.

 

[Chief]

I'm not aiming any jabs at you, Shan.

Just as well, because you'd need a cheek swab beforehand!

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

Just as well, because you'd need a cheek swab beforehand!

This is just modern life now, isn't it?

drops pants at checkpoint and spreads cheeks

 

[faible]

who is Matina Navratilova?

I believe he was a champion Badminton player in the 80s.

 

[Malifice]

You're conflating sex and gender now. I feel like you aren't quite sure of your own terms and it's the source of the confusion.

In any case, you could yell into the wind about this as much as you want, but you'll need to convince more than just me about it, since what I have said is the accepted medical consensus.

No it's not.

''Sex refers to the biological and physiological characteristics that define humans as male, female, or intersex.''

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/ar... to the biological,male, female, and intersex.

Peer reviewed academic paper. Are they wrong and you're right? Im sure they'd love to hear your arguments that 'intersex people are really either blokes or women despite literally not exclusively having male or female biological characteristics'

There. Are. More. Than. Two. Sexes.

People who are intersex have reproductive or sexual anatomy that doesn’t fit into an exclusively male or female (binary) sex classification. Intersex traits might be apparent when a person’s born, but they might not appear until later (during puberty or even adulthood). You may never notice their intersex traits externally and you might only find out about them after a surgery or imaging test.

In the past, being intersex was known as having a disorder of sex development (DSD), and you might see it referred to this way in some places. But being intersex isn’t a disorder, disease or condition. Being intersex doesn’t mean you need any special treatments or care. But some people who are intersex choose gender affirmation options if their gender doesn’t match the one they were assigned at birth.

https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/articles/16324-intersex

Intersex people do not fit into an exclusively male or female (binary) sex definition.

Being intersex is not a 'disorder, disease or condition' and you're only viewing it as a 'disorder', because it doesn't fit into YOUR view that sex is (exclusively) binary.

Facts:

1. Intersex people exist.
2. Intersex people do not fall exclusively into either (male) or (female) boxes having biological traits from each sex.

Ergo: 'Sex' is not exclusively binary.

We're now at the point where you're literally ignoring the above biological reality and scientific consensus in order for your reductive 'binary sex only' view to check out.

You do get that right?

 

[ShanDog]

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/ar... to the biological,male, female, and intersex.

Peer reviewed academic paper. Are they wrong and you're right? Im sure they'd love to hear your arguments that 'intersex people are really either blokes or women despite literally not exclusively having male or female biological characteristics'

There. Are. More. Than. Two. Sexes

Is this the quality of research you do in your work? And it's acceptable? Or did you just assume I wouldn't actually check your source?

That paper has nothing to do with intersex conditions and their classification. It makes ONE mention of the fact that there are people who are intersex. I have also made mention of this. Therefore the paper provides exactly ZERO information or clarity on the matter beyond what I have said. Call me Dr ShanDog.

https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/articles/16324-intersex

Intersex people do not fit into an exclusively male or female (binary) sex definition.

Being intersex is not a 'disorder, disease or condition' and you're only viewing it as a 'disorder', because it doesn't fit into YOUR view that sex is (exclusively) binary.

Facts:

1. Intersex people exist.
2. Intersex people do not fall exclusively into either (male) or (female) boxes having biological traits from each sex.

Ergo: 'Sex' is not exclusively binary.

We're now at the point where you're literally ignoring the above biological reality and scientific consensus in order for your reductive 'binary sex only' view to check out.

You do get that right?

That's lovely, and I'm sure it's made you feel good to find that the Cleveland Clinic has something that somewhat supports your view, but that doesn't make it the medical consensus.

All DSDs are classified as deviations from a sex - male or female. No DSD creates a new, third sex. Sex is binary.

 

[ShanDog]

For anyone interested, I could copy and paste dozens of papers that reinforce this, but I'm not going to bother arguing about something so clearly established. It's like arguing with a flat earther. Look it up yourself.

 

[Malifice]

Officials from the IBA have separately added that both fighters have XY chromosomes and high testosterone (“high T”) levels.

I think we need to be a bit wary of 'officials from the IBA':

The IBA said Khelif and fellow boxer Lin Yu-ting of Taiwan had failed “to meet the required necessary eligibility criteria and were found to have competitive advantages over other female competitors.” The governing body claimed the fighters had failed unspecified eligibility tests — the same tests that ignited a massive controversy about gender regulations and perceptions in sports this week as Khelif and Lin compete at the Paris Olympics.

The IBA’s decision last year — and its curious timing, particularly related to Amineva’s loss to Khelif — would have raised warning signs around the sports world if more people cared about amateur boxing, or even knew more about the IBA under president Umar Kremlev of Russia.

The entire boxing world has already learned to expect almost anything from the Russian-dominated governing body that was given the unprecedented punishment of being permanently banned from the Olympics last year. In fact, it hasn’t run an Olympic boxing tournament since the Rio de Janeiro Games in 2016.

The non-boxing world largely doesn’t know, however, about the IBA’s decades of troubled governance and longstanding accusations of a thorough lack of normal transparency in nearly every aspect of its dealings, particularly in recent years. Many people took the IBA’s proclamations about Khelif and Lin at face value while dragging the eligibility dispute into wider clashes about gender identity.

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/...oxing-storm-has-russian-ties-troubled-history

The IBA (controlled by Umar Kremlev, a Russian Oligarch, and best mates with Putin) announced the pair had failed this mystery test immediately following the defeat of a Russian boxer:

Nearly 17 months ago in New Delhi, Algerian boxer Imane Khelif was disqualified from the International Boxing Association’s world championships three days after she won an early-round bout with Azalia Amineva, a previously unbeaten Russian prospect.

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/...oxing-storm-has-russian-ties-troubled-history

The test itself has been called into serious doubt by anyone who has a brain, and has been rejected by World Boxing as being a sham.

Boxing federations around the world have abandoned the IBA in droves (including Australia) due to concerns the entire organization is a Kremlin propaganda machine and more corrupt than Imelda Marcos.

Interestingly, the entire Boxing gender shitfight has been amplified by Russian bots and the usual Kremlin fake profiles and actors online. Russian trolls have spread viral stories about it online, seeking (among other things) to cook people into supporting the stance of the IBA, and furthering the culture wars that have seen them basically turn the USA upside down.

Which is of course why BlueE is here right now.

If there is one thing for certain, it's that BlueE believes whatever the Russians tell him to believe online.

 

[ShanDog]

Nah, just wondering in general. I'm not aiming any jabs at you, Shan. Just wondering. Because it does kind of look like people with sexual characteristics of both sexes ARE being cancelled by some in society. At least it appears that way.

I don't know what you mean by cancelled in relation to recent discussions. The boxing stuff? I'm not really seeing how that amounts to cancellation, especially as I understand the meaning of the term.

 

[Malifice]

That paper has nothing to do with intersex conditions and their classification. It makes ONE mention of the fact that there are people who are intersex.

That paper claims there are three sexes. Male, female and intersex.

Intersex people being 'people who display sexual characteristics of more than one sex'.

You know, those people that actually exist, and are not exclusively one sex or the other one in your neat little binary definition?

Sex is binary.

OK. My child is born with Swyer syndrome. They have exclusively XY (male) chromosomes, but also have a functional female vagina.

Swyer syndrome is a rare condition that affects about 1 in 80,000 births.

Are they male or female?

 

[ShanDog]

OK. My child is born with Swyer syndrome. They have XY (male) chromosomes, but also have a functional female vagina.

Are they male or female?

Female sex. Gender is whatever they want it to be.

 

[Malifice]

Female sex.

Ok so you define 'sex' by reference to genitalia only (you agree a woman can be a woman, even if she has XY Chromosomes).

Check.

What about this person:

The scientific proof for gender/sex being a spectrum rather than a binary thing is… me.

Specifically, I was born a hermaphroditic intersex person. I have neither a full set of functional male or female reproductive organs (just a penis & vagina, basically), and XX/XY chromosomes. I’m also my own twin.

I identify as a hermaphrodite, both physically and emotionally.

During the past thirteen years that I have been dealing with this topic I have encountered countless other intersex people, and found them all to be incredibly unique, both physically and in their place in life.

Empirically speaking, there is no trace of a sex or gender binary.

https://www.quora.com/Is-there-unbi...-the-gender-spectrum-exists/answer/Maya-Posch

They were born with neither a full set functional male and female reproductive organs (but they do have both a penis and a vagina). No ovaries or a womb. Remnants of a prostate and testicles (non functioning). No adams apple.

https://www.mayaposch.com/autobiography.php

Is Maya a Man or a Woman?

 

[Ghost Patrol]

Female sex. Gender is whatever they want it to be.
View attachment 2073087

If sex is binary, why is there three potential outcomes of your flow chart?

 

[ShanDog]

why is there three potential outcomes of your flow chart?

Nice sneaky edit there.

Feel free to google the terms. I'm sure you'll figure it out.

 

[ShanDog]

Ok so you define 'sex' by reference to genitalia only (you agree a woman can be a woman, even if she has XY Chromosomes).

Check.

That makes no sense. Not sure what's going on with you.

I'm not engaging any further with an argument that is the equivalent of "Actually, humans are bipedal because sometimes there are conjoined twins who have more than two legs or people who have accidents and live with only one leg". Feel free to read up on stuff yourself.

 

[Ghost Patrol]

Nice sneaky edit there.

Feel free to google the terms. I'm sure you'll figure it out.

Not sneaky at all. Why won't you answer the question?

 

[ShanDog]

Not sneaky at all. Why won't you answer the question?

Because it's dumb and I don't want to.