Transgender - Part 2

[Gethelred]

Please be aware that the tolerance of anti-trans language on BF is at an all-time low. Jokes and insults that are trans-related, as well as anti-trans and bigoted rhetoric will be met with infractions, threadbans etc as required. It's a sensitive (and important) topic, so behave like well-mannered adults when discussing it, PARTICULARLY when disagreeing. This equally applies across the whole site.

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

I don't know what you mean by cancelled in relation to recent discussions. The boxing stuff? I'm not really seeing how that amounts to cancellation, especially as I understand the meaning of the term.

Yeah, the boxing stuff in particular. It's even produced new variants of words (new to me anyway) - transvestigation and transmisogyny.

Olympic boxer Imane Khelif beat her opponent. Then she got ‘transvestigated.’

These baseless conspiracy theories can seem far-fetched but can perpetuate harmful rhetoric and behavior.

www.usatoday.com

The dangers of 'transvestigations'

Lydia X. Z. Brown, a disability rights activist and adjunct lecturer in the Disability Studies Program and the Women’s and Gender Studies Program at Georgetown University, says "transvestigations" are rooted in transmisogyny and "a values system that centers ableism," which distinguishes certain bodies and minds as "deviant and dangerous."

As a result, transgender people, gender-nonconforming people and anyone perceived as transgender are "subjected to invasions of privacy, mockery, degradation and exclusion from public and community life," Brown says.

Powell says these public attacks not only stem from willful disinformation, but are driven by the belief that being LGBTQ+ or transgender is "somehow wrong or less than."

"'Transvestigation’ is a term that implies that to be transgender is something shameful or something horrible, and that's why a person who is suspected of secretly being transgender will be subject to this kind of scrutiny," Brown added...

I freely admit I still have a LOT to learn about this side of things. In almost all aspects of life I believe in social integration and inclusion.

Fairness and equality in sport is probably the last great sticking point besides opposition on religious grounds. I can't be an 'inclusion at any cost' kind of person if I believe in fairness.

I also believe that there can be no way to adjudicate without testing at the elite level where the motivations of individual athletes should be shining brightest.

Elite international competition very much should move into an exploratory phase but combat sports might need to be looked at a little differently as far as that goes. Strength, power and other factors need to be measured before inclusion is guaranteed.

But 'cancelling' trans and intersex athletes and competitors before the science even has a chance to speak? Not on in my book.

 

[ShanDog]

Yeah, the boxing stuff in particular. It's even produced new variants of words (new to me anyway) - transvestigation and transmisogyny.



I freely admit I still have a LOT to learn about this side of things. In almost all aspects of life I believe in social integration and inclusion.

Fairness and equality in sport is probably the last great sticking point besides opposition on religious grounds. I can't be an 'inclusion at any cost' kind of person if I believe in fairness.

I also believe that there can be no way to adjudicate without testing at the elite level where the motivations of individual athletes should be shining brightest.

Elite international competition very much should move into an exploratory phase but combat sports might need to be looked at a little differently as far as that goes. Strength, power and other factors need to be measured before inclusion is guaranteed.

But 'cancelling' trans and intersex athletes and competitors before the science even has a chance to speak? Not on in my book.

Keeping things hidden isn't helping either.

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

Keeping things hidden isn't helping either.

Who's hiding what though?

 

[ShanDog]

Who's hiding what though?

The content of tests, the actual taking of tests etc. I said earlier, I've never found that having less information when making a decision ended up in a better result.

 

[rank and file]

Bang bang
Women who punch harder than men multi gets up.
Gold for the heavy hitters.

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

The content of tests, the actual taking of tests etc. I said earlier, I've never found that having less information when making a decision ended up in a better result.

Oh, I agree. Testing should be 100% transparent. BUT, what if the participants are from ethnicities/cultures where the revealing of those results could put them and/or their families in danger? Defecting or claiming asylum may not always be workable.

There may be some cases where the competitor wants or needs to stay home and so the approval may need to be kept quiet. On the other hand, being denied the eligibility to compete would be hard to hide once it became public in any way.

 

[Chief]

The content of tests, the actual taking of tests etc. I said earlier, I've never found that having less information when making a decision ended up in a better result.

The IBA seems to be the one hiding things. The IOC is not even engaging with it.

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

The IBA seems to be the one hiding things. The IOC is not even engaging with it.

Yeah I saw that. IOC officially withdrew IBA recognition and all!

 

[ShanDog]

Oh, I agree. Testing should be 100% transparent. BUT, what if the participants are from ethnicities/cultures where the revealing of those results could put them and/or their families in danger? Defecting or claiming asylum may not always be workable.

There may be some cases where the competitor wants or needs to stay home and so the approval may need to be kept quiet. On the other hand, being denied the eligibility to compete would be hard to hide once it became public in any way.

There's always exceptions to rules. And I wouldn't even necessarily say that test results should be transparent - it's enough to just say that the results mean nothing or something.

 

[ShanDog]

The IBA seems to be the one hiding things. The IOC is not even engaging with it.

The IBA apparently sent the results directly to the IOC - that journo had eyes on the letter apparently. And the IOC hasn't denied they received it, they've basically said they don't like the source or the process so they are pretending the tests don't exist. So, who's hiding things, the IOC or the IBA, or both?

 

[Chief]

they don't like the source or the process so they are pretending the tests don't exist

Or ignoring them as the IBA process is dodgy and the IOC have their own rules?

Kremlev can stamp his little feet but he is taking the L on this one.

 

[ShanDog]

Or ignoring them as the IBA process is dodgy and the IOC have their own rules?

Kremlev can stamp his little feet but he is taking the L on this one.

So now they aren't hiding anything, they are just sticking their fingers in their ears and going, "Lalalalallallaalalallaallaa!" while they slide the info they were sent into the shredder. That's totally different...

They (IOC and IBA) are both as bad as each other. You're making this about ThE RuSsiAnS. It's about the boxers and females in sport. Either the tests are correct insofar as they point out more tests should be done, or they aren't. And it would be very, VERY weird for the IBA to triple down on their statements about this if all it took was a one-minute, non-invasive cheek swab test to prove them wrong. Or do you suppose the IBA is banking on the IOC never doing that? It would make sense I guess, since the IOC aren't even sure what a woman is according to their own pressers (where they also cite being "born as a woman and raised as a woman" as evidence someone is a woman... doesn't this invalidate trans people altogether?)

 

[Chief]

So now they aren't hiding anything, they are just sticking their fingers in their ears and going, "Lalalalallallaalalallaallaa!" while they slide the info they were sent into the shredder. That's totally different...

I only heard one thing on a podcast - where they were not including it in their decision making because it doesn't fit anywhere in their process. Like if I sent you the specs of a Ninja air fryer to help you decide which Pacific cruise to go on.

 

[ShanDog]

I only heard one thing on a podcast - where they were not including it in their decision making because it doesn't fit anywhere in their process. Like if I sent you the specs of a Ninja air fryer to help you decide which Pacific cruise to go on.

Reportedly, the test results that the IBA used to decide to ban the two boxers were sent with a letter directly to the IOC a year ago. They have that information, and their response has been to say that this doesn't follow the process, isn't from a trusted source and goes against their current policy (self ID) so they can't even consider it.

While those things may be true, I'd suggest it's would still be remiss of the IOC to just bury their heads in the sand and ignore everything, particularly given both boxers won medals. They didn't do it last time there was a big issue with DSDs (Caster Semenya and the other two runners that won all three places in Rio's 800m track event). Remains to be seen if they will make some common sense rules about eligibility before the next Olympics.

 

[Chief]

They have that information, and their response has been to say that this doesn't follow the process, isn't from a trusted source and goes against their current policy (self ID) so they can't even consider it.

Sounds perfectly reasonable to discard it then. Who would include an unreliable submission that doesn't even fit their process?

 

[ShanDog]

Sounds perfectly reasonable to discard it then. Who would include an unreliable submission that doesn't even fit their process?

Yeah, especially if it doesn't fit your desired outcomes!

So we come back full circle. The IOC doesn't want to know if males are in the female boxing categories, let alone do any testing themselves to check. That's their choice I suppose, but everyone is free to say it's despicable.

 

[Chief]

The IOC doesn't want to know if males are in the female boxing categories

You seem to have started with the conclusion that there are males in IOC female boxing categories.

 

[Ghost Patrol]

So now they aren't hiding anything, they are just sticking their fingers in their ears and going, "Lalalalallallaalalallaallaa!" while they slide the info they were sent into the shredder. That's totally different...

They (IOC and IBA) are both as bad as each other. You're making this about ThE RuSsiAnS. It's about the boxers and females in sport. Either the tests are correct insofar as they point out more tests should be done, or they aren't. And it would be very, VERY weird for the IBA to triple down on their statements about this if all it took was a one-minute, non-invasive cheek swab test to prove them wrong. Or do you suppose the IBA is banking on the IOC never doing that? It would make sense I guess, since the IOC aren't even sure what a woman is according to their own pressers (where they also cite being "born as a woman and raised as a woman" as evidence someone is a woman... doesn't this invalidate trans people altogether?)

Do you think the Harry Potter lady should do one of these non-invasive one minute cheek swab tests?

 

[ShanDog]

You seem to have started with the conclusion that there are males in IOC female boxing categories.

Gun to my head, I'd say yes, there was at least one male with a DSD competing - Khelif. Said that the very first post I made on the topic, so this isn't exactly news. But again, it's not about me. The IOC don't even want to know. THAT should be the issue.

 

[Chief]

Gun to my head, I'd say yes, there was at least one male with a DSD competing - Khelif. Said that the very first post I made on the topic, so this isn't exactly news. But again, it's not about me. The IOC don't even want to know. THAT should be the issue.

Oh well. Imane remains eligible in her categories in the eyes of everyone who matters. Hopefully she continues to reap all the deserved rewards for her hard work.

Who is next in the sights of the transvestigators?

 

[Demons09]

Do you think the Harry Potter lady should do one of these non-invasive one minute cheek swab tests?

Brilliant woman.

 

[Chief]

Brilliant woman.

Must be male!

 

[kirsti]

We actually segregate sport for physiological reasons

Biology just came along for the ride

Existing research suggests pre-GAHT trans women do not equate to sis men in either physiological or performance terms, Wiik et al & Roberts, et al. showed us this

Comment on: “Transgender Women in the Female Category of Sport: Perspectives on Testosterone Suppression and Performance Advantage” - Sports Medicine

link.springer.com

 

[The Tilt]

Do you think the Harry Potter lady should do one of these non-invasive one minute cheek swab tests?

Sure, if she's asking to compete in a boxing competition for females.

 

[The Tilt]

Gun to my head, I'd say yes, there was at least one male with a DSD competing - Khelif. Said that the very first post I made on the topic, so this isn't exactly news. But again, it's not about me. The IOC don't even want to know. THAT should be the issue.

Well said. All this conspiracy theorising (but da Russians faked da tests!) is just besides the point.

We can be confident that there aren't males competing in the women's swimming events, because they do sex screening to confirm eligibility. We can be confident that there aren't males competing in women's athletics for the same reason (they do sex screening). We can't say the same for women's olympic boxing, since the IOC apparently think it's unnecessary to check whether those wanting to compete are actually female ("We just check the passports, you see?").