Mega Thread VICBias - Genuine Discussion Part 2

[doppleganger]

Suns and Giants and Swans? The league wants them to succeed. Legality is about crimes, not sport.

AFL House wants to win over the Northern States.

Swans looking like good things to play in their 7th GF and win their 3rd flag of the 21st century.

Is anybody surprised?

Yet the WA wowsers blather on complaining that - StK, Melb, WB, Ess, Carl, NM - are advantaged!

 

[StingBitten]

Nope, no Vic Bias. Nothing to see here.

Freo just played it's first home game in a month... followed by a period earlier this year when they went a month without a home game.

EAD VFL.

 

[blinkd]

Interesting vid, definitely worth a watch.

 

[JackOutback]

That is what you took from a post explaining the obvious economics of why the AFL sends Collingwood to QLD and NSW more than WA?

Absolute wowser

Except my post had nothing to do with the economics of sending Collingwood to NSW over WA. I asked why Collingwood played West Coast at Marvel in front of 40,000 instead at Optus in front of 55,000. If it’s all about money, it makes sense to send the Pies to Perth, not West Coast to Melbourne.

 

[FreoGirl]

View attachment 2028415

Nope, no Vic Bias. Nothing to see here.

Freo just played it's first home game in a month... followed by a period earlier this year when they went a month without a home game.

EAD VFL.

Bombers are now getting AFL assisted - all is forgiven

 

[sr36]

Except my post had nothing to do with the economics of sending Collingwood to NSW over WA. I asked why Collingwood played West Coast at Marvel in front of 40,000 instead at Optus in front of 55,000. If it’s all about money, it makes sense to send the Pies to Perth, not West Coast to Melbourne.

If you read back, I'm pretty sure you were comparing the economics of Collingwood away vs WCE or Collingwood away vs Dogs at Marvel.

Collingwood bump the Dogs home crowd more than the WCE home crowd - so it would still be better economically in Vic.

 

[doppleganger]

Except my post had nothing to do with the economics of sending Collingwood to NSW over WA. I asked why Collingwood played West Coast at Marvel in front of 40,000 instead at Optus in front of 55,000. If it’s all about money, it makes sense to send the Pies to Perth, not West Coast to Melbourne.

The first point that you overlook is it is a Collingwood HOME game, we want ALL our home games at the G.

If it was at the G we would get a much bigger crowd, Collingwood fans dislike Marvel, and would get a much bigger game gate.

The issue is that the AFL enters into stadium deals, and they want Collingwood playing games at Marvel. So much bigger commercial contracts at play.

Every year we get the same FIXture, 3 at Marvel and 14 games at the G, locked in to help MCC relinquish the 1 gauranteed PF every year (you are welcome).

And of our HOME games that we are forced to play at Marvel, we shunt a small non-vic game there to minimise the $$ loss.

 

[greatwhiteshark]

Interesting vid, definitely worth a watch.

We all know there is solutions, for some reason the AFL don’t want to sort it out.I have said for years there is no reason to have those big VIC clubs on the public holiday games, they get 70-80k anyway. Use the public holiday games to fixture the current big teams in the comp.
Win for all.

 

[peetoo]

View attachment 2028415

Nope, no Vic Bias. Nothing to see here.

Freo just played it's first home game in a month... followed by a period earlier this year when they went a month without a home game.

EAD VFL.

Hawthorn play away to geelong gws adelaide and west coast in that time.m
But only travelled outside mcg marvel Tassie once in the previous 9

 

[Ed_Gein]

Just looking at the remaining fixtures for some of the sides currently in the 8.

Essendon play at either Marvel or MCG for the next 8 weeks, with their only interstate trip vs Brisbane in the last round.

Collingwood have 7 of their remaining 9 games at the MCG with the other two being trips to QLD and the SCG.

Carlton also have 7 of their remaining 9 games at either Marvel or MCG with the other two at Optus and ENGIE.

Meanwhile you look at a club like GWS who have to play in 6 different stadiums in their last 9 games including places like Canberra and Ballarat.

Very fair.

 

[Dan26]

View attachment 2028415

Nope, no Vic Bias. Nothing to see here.

Freo just played it's first home game in a month... followed by a period earlier this year when they went a month without a home game.

EAD VFL.

You’re conveniently ignoring the fact that the Bombers played 5 of their first 12 games on the road, and have only 6 games out of 23 where they have a travel advantage versus their opposition.

ESSENDON

• 6 advantage games (hosting a travelling team)
• 6 disadvantage games (travelling to another’s home ground)
• 11 neutral games (versus other VIC teams)

6 minus 6 equals is a net travel advantage of zero

FREMANTLE

• 10 advantage games (hosting a travelling team)
• 9 disadvantage games (travelling to another’s home ground)
• 4 neutral (gather round versus GWS and Alice Springs vs Demons plus two local derbies versus the Eagles)

10 minus 9 equals net travel advantage of +1

Fremantles draw is more advantageous travel wise than Essendon and worth 1 extra win (+1 compared to Essendon +0)

 

[btdg]

Just looking at the remaining fixtures for some of the sides currently in the 8.

Essendon play at either Marvel or MCG for the next 8 weeks, with their only interstate trip vs Brisbane in the last round.

Collingwood have 7 of their remaining 9 games at the MCG with the other two being trips to QLD and the SCG.

Carlton also have 7 of their remaining 9 games at either Marvel or MCG with the other two at Optus and ENGIE.

Meanwhile you look at a club like GWS who have to play in 6 different stadiums in their last 9 games including places like Canberra and Ballarat.

Very fair.

Carlton only have one of their remaining games against a non-Victorian team in Melbourne.

Of the 6 neutral field games, 5 are at grounds the opposition plays at more frequently than we do.

If the finals were to start today and results went on seeding, Carlton in second spot would face a neutral field semi final (against Essendon) and then a neutral field preliminary final (against Collingwood). That's an absolutely horrible proposition for a team that hasn't made a grand final in more than two decades.

Somehow non victorians have reduced the entirity of fixture disparity down to whether a team.is travelling, ignore everything else and them whinge about bias on that basis alone

 

[Demons09]

Yep, and has 7 teams in the one city.

Nobody complains that London teams play extra games in London.

But it doesnt stop WA wowsers thinking the AFL should fix geography.


Not sure what relevance the size of the court or the venue being indoor has to do with travel?

They run a professional league where players actually experience an arduous travel load, and the load is completely inequitable based on team location.

You dont have Portland fans campaigning for Detroit and Chicago to play home games in Portland in an attempt to add some more miles to their schedule.

But hey, it doesnt stop WA wowsers thinking the AFL should address geography.


So if you put AFL players in their own plane, the travel impost goes away.

Brilliant easy solution, Eagles just need to buy their own plane.


It means that it is massively overblown.

Especially for a team like Sydney, they have 1 hr flights with no time zone change.

Actually having a home ground advantage and then being familiar at away venues is a much bigger advantage then the perils of a 1hr flight.


Go look at VFL history.

Home ground advantage was much bigger then, and ALL teams were just up the road.

Pies v Carlton at PP, Blues won 63%
Pies v Carlton at VP, Pies won 63%

Home advantage and away disadvantage also existed in WAFL and SANFL competitions.

The ground is the important bit, not travel or where you sleep.

Which again is why AFL House policy to ignore the ground aspect in Melbourne and shunt clubs between grounds based on stadium deals has disadvantage Melbourne based teams and favoured non-Melbourne based teams.

It should be obvious, but the WA wowser tries to pretend that any game in Melbourne is an advantage regardless of the ground...a complete nonsense.


8 of the 15 were won by Geelong and Hawthorn.

Geelong has a home ground advantage, and enjoy reduced away disadvantage as they are very familiar at the Melbourne grounds.

Hawthorn travel 9-10 times a season, the same as Sydney and the SA teams. Travelling 4-5 times a year to a venue that no other teams play enabled them to create a unique ground advantage.

The stats are there for all to see, teams that retain a ground advantage dominate the H&A ladder, and are constantly in finals and playing in GFs.

The Melbourne teams - are the battlers who suffer as a result of AFL House policy that shunted them into a couple of generic grounds where none actually have any ground advantage anymore.

WA teams have to travel further, but travel is just one minor factor in the overall picture.

You’re deluded why are you talking about travel ffs you support Collingwood you win a flag on your home ground assisted by the white maggots.

 

[sr36]

Just looking at the remaining fixtures for some of the sides currently in the 8.

Essendon play at either Marvel or MCG for the next 8 weeks, with their only interstate trip vs Brisbane in the last round.

Collingwood have 7 of their remaining 9 games at the MCG with the other two being trips to QLD and the SCG.

Carlton also have 7 of their remaining 9 games at either Marvel or MCG with the other two at Optus and ENGIE.

Meanwhile you look at a club like GWS who have to play in 6 different stadiums in their last 9 games including places like Canberra and Ballarat.

Very fair.

Places like Canberra? AFL shouldn't grant GWS request to play some home games in Canberra?

GWS play 4 home games and 5 away in the last 9 - pretty standard I would have thought. They then have a bye round if they're good enough to play finals.

The way people focus on the run home - anyone would think that 4 premiership points and percentage won at the end is worth more than that won earlier in the season.

THe biggest inequalities in the draw looks to me to be who you play twice and the luck of when you play teams. I think GWS got lucky to get North and WCE in rounds 2 and 3. I think Pies would be sitting a game or two clear in second if we had that draw to reduce the disadvantage of our shorter preseason due to being premiers. This year the two grand finalists who already have the shortest preseason, which had already been shortened by a week due to gather round were then fixtured to shorten their preseason by a further week by starting earlier than the vast majority of clubs. Both those teams started the year horrendously - was that a coincidence or were they handed a disdadvantage that some club fans would carry on about?

The AFL actually try to give the teams who finished top 6 in the previous season a more difficult draw. So if a team didn't finish top 6, they really should stop whinging about being disadvantaged by the AFL and their fixturing. They've tried to give you a handicap. GWS probably do have a harder draw than most, as that's how the AFL design it although it doesn't always work out that way, but yeah if you only look at one aspect of the fixture you can find something to complain about - most clubs in every state would be able to find something.

 

[JackOutback]

We all know there is solutions, for some reason the AFL don’t want to sort it out.I have said for years there is no reason to have those big VIC clubs on the public holiday games, they get 70-80k anyway. Use the public holiday games to fixture the current big teams in the comp.
Win for all.

Exactly, a lot of the fixturing isn't about the economics, it's about highlighting the big Vic clubs as supposedly the most important element of the AFL despite, for example, West Coast being a bigger club than most of them for the past 20 years.

 

[AstonSouffle]

You’re conveniently ignoring the fact that the Bombers played 5 of their first 12 games on the road, and have only 6 games out of 23 where they have a travel advantage versus their opposition.

ESSENDON

• 6 advantage games (hosting a travelling team)
• 6 disadvantage games (travelling to another’s home ground)
• 11 neutral games (versus other VIC teams)

6 minus 6 equals is a net travel advantage of zero

FREMANTLE

• 10 advantage games (hosting a travelling team)
• 9 disadvantage games (travelling to another’s home ground)
• 4 neutral (gather round versus GWS and Alice Springs vs Demons plus two local derbies versus the Eagles)

10 minus 9 equals net travel advantage of +1

Fremantles draw is more advantageous travel wise than Essendon and worth 1 extra win (+1 compared to Essendon +0)

Tbh, people keep harping on about competitive advantage but there's also this thing called fans who want to attend the game. Everyone can keep harping on about bias this and bias that, but there's actual people who pay money, make the travel in, and get behind their team - these people specifically should not be disrespected so heavily.

The way it's panned out for Freo, we've had two 4 week blocks where we got one home game each block.

So Essendon, 5 of their twelve on the road hey? How about 7 of the 12 are in Victoria so your fans can watch your team. Let alone the 9 in a row to finish off the season.

For the most part I've been fine with the H&A alternate for the last two decades for, you plan your weekend accordingly... hell I actually got a little bit annoyed when Freo started getting night games because it broke my routine. But this year? It's been atrocious, but you lot are so far up your own behinds that you can't see how the fixture affects others.

Must be nice getting the chance to have 9 games in a row in Victoria, we'd be lucky to get three in row in WA (think it happened during Covid times, and yeah it was nice honestly but naturally impossible to replicate).

Is there a way to fix it? Of course there is, whoever designed the fixture broke it so they most certainly can fix it. End of the day would be best for all if the AFL came up a public methodology of how they design the fixture.

Now if anyone from Victoria genuinely thinks me being annoyed I've had to wait three weeks for one home game (twice this season) is an unreasonable of me then perhaps they need to assess their several depleted empathy levels.

 

[peetoo]

Just looking at the remaining fixtures for some of the sides currently in the 8.

Essendon play at either Marvel or MCG for the next 8 weeks, with their only interstate trip vs Brisbane in the last round.

Collingwood have 7 of their remaining 9 games at the MCG with the other two being trips to QLD and the SCG.

Carlton also have 7 of their remaining 9 games at either Marvel or MCG with the other two at Optus and ENGIE.

Meanwhile you look at a club like GWS who have to play in 6 different stadiums in their last 9 games including places like Canberra and Ballarat.

Very fair.

Gather round didn’t help though. Why not can that?

 

[LoungeLizard]

Exactly, a lot of the fixturing isn't about the economics, it's about highlighting the big Vic clubs as supposedly the most important element of the AFL despite, for example, West Coast being a bigger club than most of them for the past 20 years.

If West Coast are the big club you think they are, then i'm quite happy if they send you to play GWS or Gold Coast every year to boost their gates.
The trouble is, the only people who watch are West Australians your national audience is no bigger than North Melbournes.

 

[doppleganger]

You’re deluded why are you talking about travel ffs you support Collingwood you win a flag on your home ground assisted by the white maggots.

No delusion, Collingwood don't travel much and are the most advantaged on the Melbourne based teams.

The deluded people are those who actually only isolate travel, and then decide that it doesn't count if you are the "home" team.

 

[sr36]

Exactly, a lot of the fixturing isn't about the economics, it's about highlighting the big Vic clubs as supposedly the most important element of the AFL despite, for example, West Coast being a bigger club than most of them for the past 20 years.

Vic Block buster games suck for the smaller Vic teams as they ensure that the smaller Vic teams stay smaller and are likely to shrink or grow less than the big Vic clubs in the future.

WCE are huge because of AFL licensing decisions and by their earlier admission into the AFL they have a larger share of a duopoly over a very large AFL market. In terms of broadasting and exposure, to ensure their continued success and growth, the AFL have diminished the value of streaming rights so this duopoly get all their games on FTA into their large target market. How many blockbusters would it take for your club to be willing to give up the FTA broadcasting advantage that the AFL have given them?

You might want to look again at that quote of yours about privilege and equality and consider where privilege exists and that WCE sure as hell aren't one of the clubs that you want to kill.

 

[greatwhiteshark]

If you have not watched the video a few posts back about the AFL then do yourself a favour and watch it. Opened my eyes a bit.



There is heaps the AFL can and should do but simply are refusing to do. Do the big VIC clubs put pressure on them to not change things? Such simple solutions yet not being done.

Good watch guys

 

[sr36]

Tbh, people keep harping on about competitive advantage but there's also this thing called fans who want to attend the game. Everyone can keep harping on about bias this and bias that, but there's actual people who pay money, make the travel in, and get behind their team - these people specifically should not be disrespected so heavily.

The way it's panned out for Freo, we've had two 4 week blocks where we got one home game each block.

So Essendon, 5 of their twelve on the road hey? How about 7 of the 12 are in Victoria so your fans can watch your team. Let alone the 9 in a row to finish off the season.

For the most part I've been fine with the H&A alternate for the last two decades for, you plan your weekend accordingly... hell I actually got a little bit annoyed when Freo started getting night games because it broke my routine. But this year? It's been atrocious, but you lot are so far up your own behinds that you can't see how the fixture affects others.

Must be nice getting the chance to have 9 games in a row in Victoria, we'd be lucky to get three in row in WA (think it happened during Covid times, and yeah it was nice honestly but naturally impossible to replicate).

Is there a way to fix it? Of course there is, whoever designed the fixture broke it so they most certainly can fix it. End of the day would be best for all if the AFL came up a public methodology of how they design the fixture.

Now if anyone from Victoria genuinely thinks me being annoyed I've had to wait three weeks for one home game (twice this season) is an unreasonable of me then perhaps they need to assess their several depleted empathy levels.

No doubt that Vic fans have it much better, but much of that is complaining about being in a national comp. Not alternating home and away seems strange. No idea why that occurs and what requests are made by clubs for it to occur. Have you considered that Freo might request away games around the bye considering all the complaints that are made about the impact of travel?

Overall you still get the 12 games that you'd get in Perth to watch if it was a 12 team comp with 2 teams in each state. It's the nature of a national comp.

If we moved to 2 teams in each state. Equal access for fans, you'd get the same number of Perth games and you wouldn't feel envious about Vic fans getting to watch their team more often. The small downside is that no actual gain for you except getting over your envy would result in a million plus Vic fans not ever getting to watch their team at all ever again. So whilst people in this thread are advocating to kill off clubs, your complaints about boom and bust home game fixturing that interrupts your schedule seems a bit insignificant, particularly as for all we know it might have been a Freo request rather than an AFL decision

If you want more Freo games in Perth, start lobbying the WA footy commission and your club to favour a third team in WA. Start lobbying for a 3 game showdown series. Start lobbying for a WA gather round. They'd all get you more home games.

 

[Oscarman]

What don’t you get? The big 4 in Vic are in stone, we will jump on them with all our might at AFL house to make sure they reap the benefits.
Is it actually legal for a league to barrack openly for certain clubs they are supposed to be neutral in running?

It's a pretty good point. HQ would be very happy with the current top 4. It if stays like that the $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ generated from the finals will be immense. AFL is sports entertainment after all.

 

[AstonSouffle]

No delusion, Collingwood don't travel much and are the most advantaged on the Melbourne based teams.

The deluded people are those who actually only isolate travel, and then decide that it doesn't count if you are the "home" team.

Bleh travel is travel, physically teams are located where they are - as in as nice as it would be to make Collingwood travel to Perth 11 times a year obviously that would be impossible. No doubt the frequency of travel also has an impact, but in the case of Brisbane Lions, Port Adelaide, Sydney, West Coast and even Adelaide... obviously it's possible to still win while being interstate.

But there's a few bits they could tidy up;

• Teams that don't benefit from poker machines should have a larger soft cap.
• There should never be two flights taken / connecting flights to anywhere (not even sure if this happens so not outraged, but it shouldn't happen).
• Fixture times need to account for allowing the away team time to get home and get back on their plane.
• Certain things such as high-level meetings, or accolade ceremonies should be rotated throughout the country to celebrate the game nation wide - hell sell it properly to people, and say this was done all in the name to get people to stop talking about the Grand Final being at the MCG.
• Only Victorian teams should ever get 5 day breaks, and in the interest of fairness their next opponent has to be Victorian rather than travelling interstate off a 5 day break.
  • This could be done in an excel spreadsheet with these permutations easily, so obviously there's other factors so my next point.
• How and why certain double ups occur over others and why certain clubs never get home or away games at certain grounds. There's a giant list for this, Pies at Kardinia as a high-level quick example of this.
  • If the reason is money, then the AFL should come out and say this... it doesn't seem like the AFL is at risk of dying in a hole so perhaps competition integrity would be a healthy thing to partake in?
  • Worse if the reason is that there's back-end private agreements for certain fixtures to happen, and the AFL uses this as a starting point... technically this is happening with 'marquee' games.
• All of the above - these are all things the AFL could do, for both sides of the scales interstate or Vic... but they simply don't. In defense of Laura Kane, she seems to be the first person who is trying to bother so maybe something will happen. We shall see!

• No doubt that Vic fans have it much better, but much of that is complaining about being in a national comp. Not alternating home and away seems strange. No idea why that occurs and what requests are made by clubs for it to occur. Have you considered that Freo might request away games around the bye considering all the complaints that are made about the impact of travel?
  
  Overall you still get the 12 games that you'd get in Perth to watch if it was a 12 team comp with 2 teams in each state. It's the nature of a national comp.
  
  If we moved to 2 teams in each state. Equal access for fans, you'd get the same number of Perth games and you wouldn't feel envious about Vic fans getting to watch their team more often. The small downside is that no actual gain for you except getting over your envy would result in a million plus Vic fans not ever getting to watch their team at all ever again. So whilst people in this thread are advocating to kill off clubs, your complaints about boom and bust home game fixturing that interrupts your schedule seems a bit insignificant, particularly as for all we know it might have been a Freo request rather than an AFL decision
  
  If you want more Freo games in Perth, start lobbying the WA footy commission for a third team in WA. Start lobbying for a 3 game showdown series. Start lobbying for a WA gather round. They'd all get you more home games.

  First block was impacted by Gather Round, which when WA teams tried to say give something the other way, before the first Gather Round even started - they got laughed at. So, there's something that is an issue that was created in the last two years, instead of solutions - it's being made worse. I also think Adelaide is the best place to host it btw, still a shame it's had collateral damage on travelling teams.

Second block was because of the bye, and maybe you're right. Maybe Freo did request it. Also maybe the AFL should just not have these awful byes and just mandate a shutdown for all teams, so that everyone can have a rest, coaches and opposition analysts as well. We have 18 teams, not 17 or 19, why this staggered bye stuff even happens is silly.

Again, it used to be week on week off - then gather round especially has gone and cooked the whole thing, just fix it. I pay to watch my footy and I'm a loyal member, it was fine for 20+ years so why has it got to suddenly change for the worse.

 

[sr36]

Second block was because of the bye, and maybe you're right. Maybe Freo did request it. Also maybe the AFL should just not have these awful byes and just mandate a shutdown for all teams, so that everyone can have a rest, coaches and opposition analysts as well. We have 18 teams, not 17 or 19, why this staggered bye stuff even happens is silly.

I think the bye was players association. They get a mandated short mid year break, allowing Jordy just enough time to get in trouble in Bali.

The stagger is for the broadcasters so they get an extra week of games to sell. I wouldn't be surprised if we end up moving to a longer season but the same number of games, with a couple of byes per club. Would probably be beneficial for broadcasters and would lessen cumulative travel impact - not sure if the players would want to lengthen the season or would be happy with the extra bye. I wouldn't see a problem with it.