Mega Thread VICBias - Genuine Discussion Part 2

[AstonSouffle]

It's money and promotion. Home team gets the gate. It's not a financial benefit for the teams who don't go to these grounds. It protects the bottom line of the team who sells games to regional areas and doesn't de-insentivize them from doing so. Forcing them to sell their big earning home games there would be a disinsentive. And in the case of the Northern clubs who sell home games - Collingwood in town helps to promote the game and they want that in at main home base. It's why their local rival won't get moved there either.

For it to be unfair, there needs to be winners and losers from the practice - I really can't see it. We have to play in tassie and they don't seems to be the refrain. But what's the disadvantage in Non-Vic teams playing in Tassie rather than Melbourne and what's the advantage for the Pies in not?

Quick and dirty answer to this is that you wouldn't know the disadvantage of playing in these places, your team has never had to do it.

Playing North at Marvel where there's less travel involved and a game not afflicted with the wild weather would probably be better. Plus Freo have a better record in Melbourne than in Tassie so I know where I'd want them to play, which is Marvel.

So of course once I've set the scene that Freo lose more in Tassie, you sometimes wonder why we're one of the only teams that goes there repeatedly... so I ask why can't others and you answer with money (predictable), and completely ignore my point about ethics and integrity (again predictable).

My problem with you guys isn't VicBias, I personally think there's minor amendments that could be made but for the most part it's overblown. My issue is that you cherry pick what we say, almost all good suggestions are ignored and you hone in on certain things to drive home your narrative that the Non-Vic clubs suffer no disadvantages whatsoever... and that's rather grating and tbh immensely arrogant coming from a Collingwood supporter who's club always get a dream run. Lo and behold it's predominantly Collingwood supporters in here who champion the lack of Vic Bias.

Either way, Freo's time will come - West media treat them with disdain, East Coast don't think they exist, TikTok thinks Freo are a club the size of the Gold Coast despite it being one of the wealthier clubs in the league boasting highest percentage of their members attending games (probably a sign they've got the most genuine membership figures).

The whole VicBias thing is a bit whatever tbh, I support a club that has had to scrap hard to where it has. Feels a bit like bias from everywhere really, end of the day you just need to win, anywhere, anytime.

But this is not the case for Collingwood because they don't go anywhere, they've been too privileged and apparently too important, too wealthy, too paramount to the fabric of the game, to ever step foot in places like Alice, Hobart or Darwin.

Anyways, I've said my piece, it's not VicBias, it's a sign that the AFL itself isn't as healthy as it claims to be if they prioritise gate takings over sporting integrity.

 

[sr36]

Herein lies the problem, you don't get it.
An Interstate side looking at Collingwoods fixture compared to theirs is the absolute beginning of Vicbias.
You look at it from the wrong side. Anyway, when it boils down it is only a game of footy.

Where you're wrong is that your looking at it as a supporter. WCE footy club aren't going to care where Hawks and Collingwood play each other - why would they? It has absolutely no impact on WCE. Any gain or loss from them playing in Tassie would go to or come from Hawthorn and Collingwood only.

If there is a disadvantage for Collingwood in playing Hawks in Tassie , it'd be Hawthorn that get the equal sized advantage. Why would WCE be campaigning to get Hawthorn an advantage at Collingwood's expense? The same with the Cats in Geelong. WCE campaigning to give the Cats an advantage?

Why are you campaigning to give the Cats and Hawks an advantage. I'd be more worried about them if I was you.

The way you guys carry on, you'd think that Collingwood are an unstoppable powerhouse that all other clubs are trying to stop to take away our fantastic advantages and give them to another team - when you look closer - it would generally go to another Vic team Meanwhile, we've won 3 flags in 64 years...

 

[sr36]

Quick and dirty answer to this is that you wouldn't know the disadvantage of playing in these places, your team has never had to do it.

Playing North at Marvel where there's less travel involved and a game not afflicted with the wild weather would probably be better. Plus Freo have a better record in Melbourne than in Tassie so I know where I'd want them to play, which is Marvel.

So of course once I've set the scene that Freo lose more in Tassie, you sometimes wonder why we're one of the only teams that goes there repeatedly... so I ask why can't others and you answer with money (predictable), and completely ignore my point about ethics and integrity (again predictable).

My problem with you guys isn't VicBias, I personally think there's minor amendments that could be made but for the most part it's overblown. My issue is that you cherry pick what we say, almost all good suggestions are ignored and you hone in on certain things to drive home your narrative that the Non-Vic clubs suffer no disadvantages whatsoever... and that's rather grating and tbh immensely arrogant coming from a Collingwood supporter who's club always get a dream run. Lo and behold it's predominantly Collingwood supporters in here who champion the lack of Vic Bias.

Either way, Freo's time will come - West media treat them with disdain, East Coast don't think they exist, TikTok thinks Freo are a club the size of the Gold Coast despite it being one of the wealthier clubs in the league boasting highest percentage of their members attending games (probably a sign they've got the most genuine membership figures).

The whole VicBias thing is a bit whatever tbh, I support a club that has had to scrap hard to where it has. Feels a bit like bias from everywhere really, end of the day you just need to win, anywhere, anytime.

But this is not the case for Collingwood because they don't go anywhere, they've been too privileged and apparently too important, too wealthy, too paramount to the fabric of the game, to ever step foot in places like Alice, Hobart or Darwin.

Anyways, I've said my piece, it's not VicBias, it's a sign that the AFL itself isn't as healthy as it claims to be if they prioritise gate takings over sporting integrity.

I know that you're not coming from the Vicbias angle, but the funny thing is that if there is an advantage gained from Collingwood playing in Tassie and Kardinia Park it wouldn't go to a non-Vic team the advantage would go to Victoria - to the powerhouses of the recent era - Hawthorn and Geelong.

 

[AstonSouffle]

I know that you're not coming from the Vicbias angle, but the funny thing is that if there is an advantage gained from Collingwood playing in Tassie and Kardinia Park it wouldn't go to a non-Vic team the advantage would go to Victoria - to the powerhouses of the recent era - Hawthorn and Geelong.

Man, I just don’t want Freo have to play there so much when they already travel to the moon and back.

You’re right who cares how it benefits the other clubs, but obviously if Freo can’t play there (if my wish was granted) then some other club must and it tends to be interstate sides…. not Victorian and that admittedly doesn’t sit well with me from an integrity perspective.

But tbh, Freo also only team to have a 100% win record at Kardinia Park during finals. This sentence alone highlights the absurdity of the whole bloody thing.

 

[sr36]

Man, I just don’t want Freo have to play there so much when they already travel to the moon and back.

You’re right who cares how it benefits the other clubs, but obviously if Freo can’t play there (if my wish was granted) then some other club must and it tends to be interstate sides…. not Victorian and that admittedly doesn’t sit well with me from an integrity perspective.

But tbh, Freo also only team to have a 100% win record at Kardinia Park during finals. This sentence alone highlights the absurdity of the whole bloody thing.

It iwouldn't be much further than Melb would it?

 

[AstonSouffle]

It iwouldn't be much further than Melb would it?

This is what I mean.

I gave you reasons and you ignored them. (About ground, weather and win record).

It’s about roughly the same, although.. I’m unsure what the flight situation from Perth to Launceston is. If it’s two flights connecting in Melbourne then there you go.

 

[sr36]

This is what I mean.

I gave you reasons and you ignored them. (About ground, weather and win record).

It’s about roughly the same, although.. I’m unsure what the flight situation from Perth to Launceston is. If it’s two flights connecting in Melbourne then there you go.

Weather is much the same as Melb in Winter - not as cold as it's reputation. You've only won 2 out of 15 there, so fair point. Win record is hard to assess with teams not playing there that often- if you were getting the Hawks there when they were great - you'd expect a worse record there than against other teams in Melb - but against North recently you'd expect a higher win rate than in Melb. No idea what it's been with Freo. But yes looking shit overall for you guys there.

 

[doppleganger]

We got the Melbourne-Hawthorn quinella this year, instead of two away games at the MCG versus MCG tenants we got the boondocks. When they start playing finals in Launceston and Alice Springs is when we won't be routinely disadvantaged. When Collingwood start playing their away games against those teams in NT and Tassie rather than the MCG is when Collingwood won't be routinely advantaged.

Melbourne v Freo at the G is an actual home ground advantage to Melbourne, and equivalent away disadvantage to Freo

Melbourne dont travel
Melbourne players sleep at home, enjoy the normal routine
Melbourne get to play at their familiar home ground, where they play 12+ games a year, have a winning record at
Melbourne get to play in front of their fans and get the lift from defending home turf and voice of affirmation umpire edge

Freo travel cop the 4hr flight to Melb
Freo players are away from home, in hotels with disrupted routine
Freo are playing away so are not meant to ve familiar with the ground
Freo miss out on any real crowd support and cop the stadium full of Dees fans


Melbourne v Freo in Alice there is no advantage anymore, it is a neutral game

Melbourne players travel and cop the 3hr flight to Alice
Melb players are away from home, in hotels with disrupted routine
Melb are not familiar with the ground, and dont have any ground advantage
Melb miss out on any real crowd support, and get no lift from defendkng home turf or voice or affirmation from the crowd
Melb are effectively playing away

Freo players enjoy a shorter travel trip to Alice (2.5 hrs) instead of 4 to Melb
Freo no longer cop a stadium full of Dees fans and the disadvantage that comes from playing a team on their familiar home ground
Freo are away from Perth, but dont cop any away ground disadvantage as their opponent is also away from home.

It is Melbourne that gives up an advantage, Freo benefit.

The H&A fixture favours teams who have retained a proper home ground advantage and get to play some away games at neutral venues.

 

[doppleganger]

You think from the supporter point of view, try thinking from an oppo point of view when they look at the fixture.

Why would any footy department look at the fixture and see avoiding playing a Melbourne based team at their home ground and instead playing them at a venue outside of Melbourne (often closer to home) as a disadvantage?

Would an footy department prefer to play North/Dogs at their home Marvel or play them away from Marvel?

Would a footy department prefer to play Collingwood/Rich at the G, or play them away from the G?

Home ground advantage is real, footy departments would much rather play an opposition away from their home ground.

 

[doppleganger]

Anyways, I've said my piece, it's not VicBias, it's a sign that the AFL itself isn't as healthy as it claims to be if they prioritise gate takings over sporting integrity.

That was the entire premise of AFL House imposed policy of Melbourne ground rationalisation.

$$ and BLOCKBUSTERS prioritised over fairness.

21st century - StK, Carl, NM, Ess, WB and Melb - the small Melbourne / Marvel teams are the actual disadvantaged teams.

Non-Melbourne teams who still enjoy a ground advantage are the successful teams.

 

[doppleganger]

This is what I mean.

I gave you reasons and you ignored them. (About ground, weather and win record).

But they ignore your opponent

Freo aint played North in Tassie, Freo have a poor record in Tassie because they play the Hawks there.

Between 2008-2019, Freo couldnt beat the Hawks anywhere, Freo only won 25% of games v Hawks in Perth in that period (winning just 2 of 8 games) and Freo had a 0% winning record at the G v the Hawks.

Ground, weather had nothing to do with it...you were playing Hawthorn and couldnt beat em anywhere for over a decade.

Man, I just don’t want Freo have to play there so much when they already travel to the moon and back.

The travel sook is a nonsense

Freo playing Hawks/North in Tassie or Melbourne is negligible difference in terms of travel. You are flying the entire continent with a direct flight in both situations.

It is North/Haw who actually cop a travel impost when shifting to Tassie. So if you think travel, sleeping in hotels is a factor, surely you want your opponent to also travel and be away from home??

And when you play a Melbourne based team in the NT instead of Melbourne, you actually see your travel reduced...but WA based fans think playing a game in NT instead of Melbourne is a disadvantage to them (and not the Melbourne team) and use it as evidence of VICBias!?

 

[Grin]

As we have well established in this thread. It's swings and roundabouts, with non-Vic clubs getting advantages with recruitment, in the home and away season and in finals, with a very arguable disadvantage in grand finals when the play Melbourne clubs, and arguably less talked about in Victorian media. Some supporters of non-Vic clubs (a very small minority I'd suggest) want it to be all swings for their club. Presumably because they feel inferior and don't think they could possibly compete otherwise.
A bit pathetic really.

 

[peetoo]

For discussion alongside the free kick discussion

MOST MATCHES MISSED THROUGH SUSPENSION SINCE 2010
62 Geelong
57 Richmond
56 Hawthorn
53 West Coast
52 St Kilda
51 Essendon
50 Melbourne
46 Fremantle
43 North Melbourne
40 Brisbane, Port Adelaide
36 Carlton
35 Gold Coast
29 Greater Western Sydney
28 Collingwood
26 Western Bulldogs
22 Adelaide
18 Sydney

 

[blue harvest]

It’s about roughly the same, although.. I’m unsure what the flight situation from Perth to Launceston is. If it’s two flights connecting in Melbourne then there you go.

You've been getting direct flights to Launceston for 20 years. It's no different to coming to Melbourne, with the added bonus your opponent has also had to travel.

 

[Dogflogger]

Where you're wrong is that your looking at it as a supporter. WCE footy club aren't going to care where Hawks and Collingwood play each other - why would they? It has absolutely no impact on WCE. Any gain or loss from them playing in Tassie would go to or come from Hawthorn and Collingwood only.

If there is a disadvantage for Collingwood in playing Hawks in Tassie , it'd be Hawthorn that get the equal sized advantage. Why would WCE be campaigning to get Hawthorn an advantage at Collingwood's expense? The same with the Cats in Geelong. WCE campaigning to give the Cats an advantage?

Why are you campaigning to give the Cats and Hawks an advantage. I'd be more worried about them if I was you.

The way you guys carry on, you'd think that Collingwood are an unstoppable powerhouse that all other clubs are trying to stop to take away our fantastic advantages and give them to another team - when you look closer - it would generally go to another Vic team Meanwhile, we've won 3 flags in 64 years...

For teams like Collingwood to not have to play at certain grounds just means other clubs have to pick up the slack. Collingwood has not played in Geelong since 1997 go and compare how many games Melbourne has played there since 1997. Even if it gives a team like WCE one less game in kardinia ever 3-4 years then i'd say thats a massive win for them.

 

[sr36]

For teams like Collingwood to not have to play at certain grounds just means other clubs have to pick up the slack. Collingwood has not played in Geelong since 1997 go and compare how many games Melbourne has played there since 1997. Even if it gives a team like WCE one less game in kardinia ever 3-4 years then i'd say thats a massive win for them.

Yeah, I hadn't thought about the extra rotation part.

Kardinia Park is not the right example - that's purely a Collingwood and Cats benefit and loss which doesn't affect other teams. Other teams are going there, whether or not the Pies do. Pies get an advantage and the cats get a home and away disadvantage out of that fixturing.

But if Hawks and North are contracted to 4 games in Tassie, the teams who go there will go there slightly more often if some teams are excluded from the rotation. Then add in the fixed double ups of teams and some will get an away game their more often again.

So if an away game in Tassie rather than Melbourne is actually a disadvantage, you're right that the Non-Vic and small Vic teams who go there are disadvantaged by it. So it's fair enough to complain if you do think it's a disadvantage to play in Tassie. Data does suggest it is.

 

[Dogflogger]

Yeah, I hadn't thought about the extra rotation part.

Kardinia Park is not the right example - that's purely a Collingwood and Cats benefit and loss which doesn't affect other teams. Other teams are going there, whether or not the Pies do. Pies get an advantage and the cats get a home and away disadvantage out of that arrangement.

But if Hawks and North are contracted to 4 games in Tassie, the teams who go there will go there slightly more often if some teams are excluded from the rotation. Then add in the fixed double ups of teams and some will get an away game their more often again.

So if an away game in Tassie rather than Melbourne is actually a disadvantage, you're right that the Non-Vic and small Vic teams who go there are disadvantaged by it.

Collingwood is just a great example because of how long it has been but when you add in the fact that Essendon,Hawks,Richmond and Carlton dont get games there often either you end up with a ground like that being just for interstate teams, small vic clubs and big vic clubs that arent peforming well so the AFL doesnt expect a crowd. No wonder they have such a good average winning margin at Kardinia.

 

[Dogflogger]

And that's the same for any other ground that the AFL refuse to play certian teams there. The slack is just picked up by other teams.

 

[sr36]

Collingwood is just a great example because of how long it has been but when you add in the fact that Essendon,Hawks,Richmond and Carlton dont get games there often either you end up with a ground like that being just for interstate teams, small vic clubs and big vic clubs that arent peforming well so the AFL doesnt expect a crowd. No wonder they have such a good average winning margin at Kardinia.

What i meant was Kardinia Park is their home ground. Other clubs aren't given a disadvantage when fixtured there. That's where every club should expect to play them.

Collingwood and others get an advantage when they play Cat home games against them at the G, but the corresponding disadvantage isn't worn by the any team other than the Cats. They do actually request all home games at KP, but I suspect that they're actually happy with the finals prep of a couple more games in front of big crowds at G, as well as what I'm assuming is a bigger financial return - but might not be.

 

[Dogflogger]

What i meant was Kardinia Park is their home ground. Other clubs aren't given a disadvantage when fixtured there. That's where every club should expect to play them.

Collingwood and others get an advantage when they play Cat home games against them at the G, but the corresponding disadvantage isn't worn by the any team other than the Cats. They do actually request all home games at KP, but I suspect that they're actually happy with the finals prep of a couple more games in front of big crowds at G, as well as what I'm assuming is a bigger financial return - but might not be.

Yes but grounds like Tassie and Darwin are unofficial home grounds for clubs and if the AFL wont send MCG tennants there then its no different. it just means that certain clubs are rarely put in a situation where they have disadvantages from a football ground perspective.

 

[iameviljez]

Meanwhile, we've won 3 flags in 64 years

Sure, but coming runner-up in eleven other GFs in those years adds a little perspective to that.

Mind you, we are really only talking about the AFL era anyway - especially the years with 8 reasonably competitive non-Vic sides.

 

[sr36]

Yes but grounds like Tassie and Darwin are unofficial home grounds for clubs and if the AFL wont send MCG tennants there then its no different. it just means that certain clubs are rarely put in a situation where they have disadvantages from a ground perspective.

I'm agreeing with you with Darwin, Tassie, Ballarat, Canberra. If they are disadvantages then it's unfair due to increased rotation for other clubs. Darwin with climate definitely will be a disadvantage - GC will be invincible there.

I just don't agree with KP - Cats are the only team who lose out with their home games against us getting fixtured at the G - not other clubs.

 

[jannissary]

does the #VICBIAS still exist if an interstate team wins this season?

 

[sr36]

Sure, but coming runner-up in eleven other GFs in those years adds a little perspective to that.

Mind you, we are really only talking about the AFL era anyway - especially the years with 8 reasonably competitive non-Vic sides.

True, but it doesn't count in this thread where high finishes and being consistently pretty good is irrelevant, it's only the 15 of 17 that says anything.

 

[Dogflogger]

I'm agreeing with you with Darwin, Tassie, Ballarat, Canberra. If they are disadvantages then it's unfair due to increased rotation for other clubs. Darwin with climate definitely will be a disadvantage - GC will be invincible there.

I just don't agree with KP - Cats are the only team who lose out with their home games against us getting fixtured at the G - not other clubs.

With the way fixture rotation works Cats are not the only one hurt by certain clubs never playing there. the slack must be picked up by others which therefore means they are likely to play there more often than they normally would. Of course Collingwood are the big winners for always having home games against Geelong and of course Geelong are the big losers in the scenario but it doesn't mean it doesn't affect any other teams. and in another round about way guaranteeing Geelong so many MCG games means teams like St kilda will play there less also.