WA/Daylight Saving: To Join The 21st Century Or To Not, Part II

[Eagle87]

Perth was once a beautiful city before the ****wits in charge decided in their infinite wisdom to bulldoze 70% of the old buildings in the name of progress.

Yes and No... it was certainly more ascetically pleasing but it was a tiny city back then (we are talking 20+ years since the last of the decent older buildings was demolished).

There has been no shortage of ****wits in charge though...

 

[Upgrayedd]

Reason i hate it

I work around 10-6, I wake up early in the morning, ill either go out jogging, go for a surf, Now when daylight savings rolled in, I woke up and it was completely dark, i find it harder to wake, up, it sucks ass surfing in the dark, jogging in the dark, I could after work, but after lifting heavy shit and working hard all day i dont feel like a 5k jog, or surfing when a million w***ers are in the ocean swimming infront of a surfboard

It's how i grew up, i am sick of people who have CHOSEN to work the hours, but want the times changed so THEY can enjoy, screwing over the other people who live the lifestyle they are happy with, for 3 ****ing years now ive hated summer.

I grew up in W.A., love it, If i wanted Daylight savings, huge skyscrapers, daylight till 9.30 i would move to Melbourne.

I think the government are tired of people voting no and forced us to go within 3 years of it, to try to get people used to it, Ill be voting No, and i hope to god it isnt a perminate thing

 

[Bunnie]

The fact that a majority of young, well educated professionals are taking your advice is ultimately the key problem.

The poster I was responding to (forgive me if I am mistaken) didn't exactly sound like he/she fitted the above category. Well, maybe young.

 

[Docker Clint]

i am sick of people who have CHOSEN to work the hours, but want the times changed so THEY can enjoy, screwing over the other people who live the lifestyle they are happy with, for 3 ****ing years now ive hated summer.

Sing it brother.

I'm still pissed off that they took away my morning run. It was superb heading out when the light was just on the horizon and getting home when the sun was up and I felt alive. Who the heck wants to do all that when it's dead dark?

One pro-DLS person said "stuff ya, if you want to exercise in the morning, take a torch"

 

[Bunnie]

Yes and No... it was certainly more ascetically pleasing but it was a tiny city back then (we are talking 20+ years since the last of the decent older buildings was demolished).

There has been no shortage of ****wits in charge though...

still would like to know which idiot heritage listed that poo brown sterile pile of bricks opposite kings park.... the one they had to cage in because it became suicide central for a while... name of said blight on the landscape escapes me..

 

[tesseract]

Off you go then.

You do know arguments like this does not help your DLS cause? Best way to get someone offside is to insult them. That sort of attitude may cause others who were a little undecided to dig their heals in and say no.

I did leave the city and now reside in the beautiful semi-rural foothills. This DLS issue is a non issue, it's 1 hour either way, I don't really give a shite. My point is that most people in WA are negative and backwards thinking, especially the grey heads. Not all people to be fair. Perth can't change for the better until there is a major attitude readjustment, or the entire baby boomer generation dies out. When 1 or both of those things happen, Perth will have to get to work fast to modernize our disgraceful shit hole we have for a capital in WA.

 

[tesseract]

The thing is, the previous votes were held years apart and the same result was achieved each time. Do you think that anyone under 30 was barred from voting last time?

What conclusion will you draw if this vote is similar to previous times?

My conclusion is that modern medicine is allowing people to live much longer.
But I'm taking the piss in this debate because it's not that big an issue.

 

[Eagle87]

Reason i hate it

I work around 10-6, I wake up early in the morning, ill either go out jogging, go for a surf, Now when daylight savings rolled in, I woke up and it was completely dark, i find it harder to wake, up, it sucks ass surfing in the dark, jogging in the dark, I could after work, but after lifting heavy shit and working hard all day i dont feel like a 5k jog, or surfing when a million w***ers are in the ocean swimming infront of a surfboard

It's how i grew up, i am sick of people who have CHOSEN to work the hours, but want the times changed so THEY can enjoy, screwing over the other people who live the lifestyle they are happy with, for 3 ****ing years now ive hated summer.

I grew up in W.A., love it, If i wanted Daylight savings, huge skyscrapers, daylight till 9.30 i would move to Melbourne.

I think the government are tired of people voting no and forced us to go within 3 years of it, to try to get people used to it, Ill be voting No, and i hope to god it isnt a perminate thing

Fair enough.

Absolutely no intellectual logic or integrity in your posts but fair enough.

On the day DLS came in sunrise was at 6.25am. The day before it was 5.26am. How early you get up? 3 hours and 35 minutes of daylight before work isn't enough?

In fact before September 9, you had a sunrise after 6.25. So DLS simply took you back to where you had been, sunrise wise, a mere 6 weeks earlier - this threw you and destroyed "the way (you) grew up"?? Really??

In fact at the end of September, sunrise was about 6am... so dropped back to 6.25am 26 days later threw your entire life out?? really??

Its a democracy, you get to vote, but don't pretend that this has anything much to do with anything other than a feeling, a vibe and maybe a mindset... certainly has **** all to do with those 25 minutes of daylights for 26 days.

 

[greenred]

I did leave the city and now reside in the beautiful semi-rural foothills. This DLS issue is a non issue, it's 1 hour either way, I don't really give a shite. My point is that most people in WA are negative and backwards thinking, especially the grey heads. Not all people to be fair. Perth can't change for the better until there is a major attitude readjustment, or the entire baby boomer generation dies out. When 1 or both of those things happen, Perth will have to get to work fast to modernize our disgraceful shit hole we have for a capital in WA.

Change for the sake of change is not a way to move forward. How will DLS 'modernize' Perth? How is it 'backward thinking' to not want DLS? What is it about DLS that brings a state into the 21st century? Has DLS delivered on these issues in the 3 year trial, or does it take time (and how long) for DLS to achieve these things? Or do you just agree with Eagle87 that you don't care what people say 'yes' to, you would just like to see them say 'yes' to something?

 

[Eagle87]

still would like to know which idiot heritage listed that poo brown sterile pile of bricks opposite kings park.... the one they had to cage in because it became suicide central for a while... name of said blight on the landscape escapes me..

Indeed.

Classic government overreaction. 'Shit we have wrecked every bloody building in the city thats more than 10 years old, we have no heritage" ... "Umm, lets keep everything else, keep our heritage" ... "But all we have left is shit government buildings that we have been too tight arsed to demolish and rebuild"... "Thats our heritage son, no planning, stupid decision making and no ****ing idea.."...

Personally, I think a shrine to suicide for those few young people who couldn't get out of the soulless wind tunnel that is our fair city is somewhat fitting.

At least after DLS ends we wont be able to see it as much as the darkness will descend at an earlier hour ...

 

[Eagle87]

Change for the sake of change is not a way to move forward. How will DLS 'modernize' Perth? How is it 'backward thinking' to not want DLS? What is it about DLS that brings a state into the 21st century? Has DLS delivered on these issues in the 3 year trial, or does it take time (and how long) for DLS to achieve these things? Or do you just agree with Eagle87 that you don't care what people say 'yes' to, you would just like to see them say 'yes' to something?

You seem to be missing the point almost deliberately greenred...

Great cities are often like young people. One of the great joys of young people is that they will have a crack at anything. Its their anythings possible, give it a go attitude that makes them exciting. It also leads to some bad decisions at times but the enthusiasm and the energy is always great...

By comparison, Perth is more that silly old tosser who has seen and done everything and doesnt give a shit anymore - just poo-poo's everything because he can.

A vote in favour of DLS won't change anything substantially but it might suggest that, just maybe, there is some ****ing hint of change in the air which wouldnt hurt our quaint little town...

Hence my baby steps comment...

 

[Bunnie]

Indeed.

Classic government overreaction. 'Shit we have wrecked every bloody building in the city thats more than 10 years old, we have no heritage" ... "Umm, lets keep everything else, keep our heritage" ... "But all we have left is shit government buildings that we have been too tight arsed to demolish and rebuild"... "Thats our heritage son, no planning, stupid decision making and no ****ing idea.."...

Personally, I think a shrine to suicide for those few young people who couldn't get out of the soulless wind tunnel that is our fair city is somewhat fitting.

At least after DLS ends we wont be able to see it as much as the darkness will descend at an earlier hour ...

Ooohhh that swayed me. No it is!!!

 

[tesseract]

It's what swayed me.

I was keen for it when I moved here and bought the party line of not having it being backward etc.

But if the only argument for something is abuse and insults, then something is rotten and it lead me to examine the reasons for and against. No one has ever once come up with an objective reason for the introduction of DLS. Not one.

We now know the reason behind all the no saying in WA. SPITE, a let's stick it up em attitude. If what I said made your mind over, then you haven't thought it through very well.
Is it to hard too grasp that debate doesn't mean anything. Every one is going to vote for their own selfish reasons.

 

[Eagle87]

An interesting diversion.

We all know that the Rudd government is handing money to people because its the socially responsible thing to do in these difficult times...

.... what would happen if Barnett decided that WA needed a stimulus package and after extensive study he decided to link it to some other changes which are "pro-business". One of those was DLS.

So Barnett comes out and says that he will give families $950 per child if they qualify for FTB A and an additional $950 for FTB B and he will give self-funded retirees $950 each and pensioners $950 each... you just need to vote yes for DLS.

Of course, people being so highly principled and voting based on strongly held views wouldnt be swayed ... DLS would still not get up?

Or perhaps it would, then it would be forgotten about. Its a minor issue that should be simply legislated and then forgotten about.

 

[tesseract]

Change for the sake of change is not a way to move forward. How will DLS 'modernize' Perth? How is it 'backward thinking' to not want DLS? What is it about DLS that brings a state into the 21st century? Has DLS delivered on these issues in the 3 year trial, or does it take time (and how long) for DLS to achieve these things? Or do you just agree with Eagle87 that you don't care what people say 'yes' to, you would just like to see them say 'yes' to something?

I never said change is the way forward. Don't be putting words in my mouth. I don't care which way the DLS issue goes. I just think WA is a vote NO state and is backwards when it comes to most things.

 

[Great_Ocean_Road]

It is very important and affects every single West Australian. That is precisely why the people have to decide it's fate. The WA Govt cannot just legislate it and be done with it (as much as Eagles87 would like that - just because suits his own agenda ). To legislate it without public referendum would be political suicide. It leaves the next election to be fought on the keep/get rid of DLS platform without any other political views and platforms to be considered.

Public vote is the only way to go. The Government is to govern not dictate. The public backlash and uproar would be heard in China if they decided to arbitrarily introduce it. The uproar over the enforced trial proved that.

In the end, it will come down to personal preference. Those who like it will vote yes. Those who don't will vote no. End of story.

So the public should decide on anything. For every legislation there should be a referendum?

 

[Docker Clint]

So the public should decide on anything. For every legislation there should be a referendum?

Of course not. That's the absurdity of this three year trial.

However, the issue HAS been put to referendum. If it is voted no for the FOURTH time, then this ridiculous bitching, whining and worst of all, waste of millions of dollars should never be revisited again.

 

[Great_Ocean_Road]

Reason i hate it

I work around 10-6, I wake up early in the morning, ill either go out jogging, go for a surf, Now when daylight savings rolled in, I woke up and it was completely dark, i find it harder to wake, up, it sucks ass surfing in the dark, jogging in the dark, I could after work, but after lifting heavy shit and working hard all day i dont feel like a 5k jog, or surfing when a million w***ers are in the ocean swimming infront of a surfboard

It's how i grew up, i am sick of people who have CHOSEN to work the hours, but want the times changed so THEY can enjoy, screwing over the other people who live the lifestyle they are happy with, for 3 ****ing years now ive hated summer.

I grew up in W.A., love it, If i wanted Daylight savings, huge skyscrapers, daylight till 9.30 i would move to Melbourne.

I think the government are tired of people voting no and forced us to go within 3 years of it, to try to get people used to it, Ill be voting No, and i hope to god it isnt a perminate thing

Ohhh, poor baby can't surf in the dark. Ohhh diddums.

more people would perfer to have daylight at the end of the day, not the start.

you don't hear people whinging in victoria or nsw about how they can't run in the dark.

THE MYTHS ABOUT
DAYLIGHT SAVING IN WESTERN AUSTRALIA



This year, Western Australians will be going to the polls to vote on whether they want daylight saving each summer. Before you vote, there have been many myths thrown around by the anti-daylight saving groups. So we have made a special website to give you the facts on daylight saving in Western Australia, and why it should continue. The referendum will be held on will be 16th May, 2009.

Make no mistake, if daylight saving is voted out this year, it will be at least 30 years before Western Australians can have a taste of it again. So if you enjoy the longer summer evenings, then please consider voting yes at the up coming referendum. Just think long and hard what you've been able to do outside between 7:30pm and 8:30pm during the past 3 summers, because next year there is a big chance it will be dark again during that hour, unless you help support the yes vote.
Daylight Saving in WA - How will you vote on 16th May?

yes
no



View Results

Web Poll from Free Website Polls

1992 Referendum Results
Check out how your area voted (5.38mb)


Myth 1:
We already have enough daylight in summer

Compared to most of the big cities in the world, Perth has less daylight hours than London, Paris, New York, Chicago, Amsterdam and Madrid during mid-summer. Yet, all those cities still have daylight saving. Surely if we have less daylight than them during summer, then isn't it even more of a reason to put our clock forward too? (Source: www.timeanddate.com)

Myth 2:
The eastern states have it because they have less daylight.

Once again many people seem to think the eastern states have less daylight hours than Perth but this is wrong. During summer, Adelaide, Melbourne, Sydney, Canberra and Hobart all have more daylight, yet they still go on daylight saving time. (Source: www.timeanddate.com)

Myth 3:
It's too hot to have daylight saving in Western Australia.

This is one of the big reasons why some people dislike daylight saving. Over the past two summers on hot days, some like to straight away blame it on the heat. Western Australia will always be hot in summer, it doesn't matter what the clock says. There are many places around the world that have had daylight saving for years, where it can be much hotter than Western Australia. For instance, the southern parts of the United States, such as Texas, New Mexico, Nevada and Florida. Then there is Mexico, Brazil, Spain and Egypt. We only have to look in our own backyard, such as Adelaide, who can have severe summer heat waves like Perth. Plus the sun sets even later than Perth in Adelaide during summer (8:26pm in Perth, 8:33pm in Adelaide on 1st January). Plus not forgetting places in rural South Australia and New South Wales, plus Victorian towns such as Mildura, where summer temperatures are above 40C on many occasions, with the sun setting past 8:40pm.

Myth 4:
It disrupts our body clock.

This is an interesting one. The majority of the population will be use to the new time within 1 day, for others it can take a few days. A very small percentage will have an effect which could last longer than a week. Ask yourself when you've gone on a holiday to a different timezone, and how quickly you get use to the new time? You don't even think about it once you look at the clock. The problem with some people that don't like daylight saving, is that they look at the clock, and say it should really be an hour earlier than what it is. The small minority that do this will continue to have problems. The vast percentage of population look at the clock, say the time is the time, and have no problems whatsoever.

Myth 5:
People that want daylight saving should wake up an hour earlier.

This may be somewhat true for people that can start and finish work earlier, but for the majority of us this just cant happen. For instance you can't tell your boss to open the shop up one hour earlier just for you, I think he/she would have a big laugh! It can also be said that if doing this is so easy, then when we are on daylight saving, why don't the people that hate daylight saving just wake up an hour later and arrange with their work to start and finish later!

Myth 6:
We put the Air Conditioner on more during daylight saving.

Air Conditioner use reaches it's peak on the hot days, but to say that it means people use it more during daylight saving lacks evidence. Summer power use changes from year to year, it just depends on how many hot days we have. When you get home from work on a hot day, you usually turn it on when you get home, whether we have daylight saving or not, and then put it off when you go to bed, or on the very hot nights you leave it on all night. This means that the air conditioner is on the same amount of hours.

Myth 7:
Children wont go to sleep during daylight saving.

The majority of children easily adapt to daylight saving after a couple of nights. Yes during the hot nights they might find it harder to go to sleep, but this is the case even without daylight saving as one hour is not going to make a big difference in temperature. Yes it is still daylight outside at 7:30pm, however a child who usually has no difficulties going to bed will still have no difficulties during daylight saving, just close the curtains. Some children have dramas going to bed even in winter time. For those that say they have troubles getting their children to bed during daylight, there are just as many parents that say they have no problems with their children. Infants sleep during the day under full daylight conditions, so this should also pose no problems at night.

Myth 8:
It's too dark in the mornings.

Under daylight saving in Perth, sunrise is between 6:03am and 6:30am in November, December and most of January. It's even earlier for county towns to the west and south. The vast majority of us don't use daylight at that hour, we are either still asleep, or getting ready for work. Later in March, the sun rises at about 7:20am, which though late, is almost the same as sunrises in July and most don't seem to complain about that! People in Melbourne and Adelaide have sunrise after 7:30am just before the end of daylight saving, and both cities have just extended it into April.

Myth 9:
We will be on a different timezone to Asia.

Wrong once again, Asia has more than once timezone. Yes we might be 1 hour ahead of China and Singapore, but during daylight saving we are on the same timezone as our other major business partners in South Korea and Japan.

Myth 10:
It makes it too difficult for the farmers.

Farmers say they go by the sun and not the time, using this logic it shouldn't matter what the clock says. Others say they have to get everything done an hour earlier, because the trucks and milk tankers still come at the same "clock" time. This might be right, however one would suggest that it should be easier enough to change the truck and tanker arrival times. Or perhaps get some tips from farmers over east, in Europe or North America, who have been farming with daylight saving for decades.

Myth 11:
The northern parts of the state don't need it because they are close to the equator.

This is partly true, however it depends where on the timezone map you are located. For instance, towns located in the Kimberley are actually behind the "sun time", as it would probably suit them more to be on Central Standard Time. Wyndham on the 22nd December has a sunrise during standard time at 4:55am, yet the sunsets at 5:57pm. This is probably a reason why people in the Kunnanurra region voted yes to daylight saving in the past three referendums.

Myth 12:
You work more hours.

People that work in some industries such as at a golf course will be working longer hours, but once again, we are talking about a small minority of the population. The people that do work more, will get more money, and hence good for the economy.

Myth 13:
It was undemocratic the way it was brought it.

The daylight saving bill was one of the few pieces of legislation which gave politicians a free vote, instead of being forced to vote on what their political party wanted them to do. This rarely happens, and it is fair to say, that this made the vote even fairer. Yes, there had been referendums on the issue before, but the last vote was in 1992, and many people that can now vote, were only kids back then and want to have a say on it. Having a trial and a referendum is the most democratic way of doing it. The folks in Victoria and Tasmania have never had to chance to vote on the issue. Tasmania has had daylight saving every single summer since 1968 and Victoria since 1971. Do we ever hear a big uproar from the residents in those states, who have now had daylight saving now for about 40 years, without a vote?

Myth 14:
When it's noon on the clock, the sun should be at it's highest point.

The clock is a man made device. Due to the way Earth orbits the sun, the highest point of the sun changes during the year. In Adelaide for instance, solar noon can be as late as 1:30pm in February (12:30pm standard time) or as early as 12:59pm in late October (11:59am standard time). If you were to use "real time" as some like to call it, then your clock would change slightly each day, so the sun would be highest in the sky at 12:00noon. As this is not practical, governments prior to the use of standard time used "mean time", they would average out when "noon" would occur. This meant that a city like Adelaide during the 1800's, was actually 9 hours 14 minutes and 20 seconds ahead of London Time (GMT). The Australian states agreed to standardise their time in 1895, and 31st January, residents in Adelaide turned back their clocks by 14 minutes and 20 seconds to be 9 hours ahead of London. The earlier sunsets after this happened became unpopular, so on 1st May, 1899, South Australians advanced their clocks by half an hour to be 9 hours and 30 minutes ahead of London (GMT), where they have stayed to this day, except for the summer period. So when someone says, "but daylight saving time is not real time". Then a good reply would be "what is real time?".

Myth 15:
It will be still light at 9:30pm.

Some like to over do it, on both sides of the debate, and this is many people's favourite. It will never be light that late, anywhere in Western Australia at 9:30pm. The latest sunset in Perth is at 8:27pm, and twilight lasts about 30 minute. By 9pm there will only be a small glow on the western sky. By 9:30pm it will be well and truly dark. In country towns to the north and east of Perth, it will be darker even earlier. Only towns to the south-west, such as Busselton and Augusta will have a later sunset in Perth during summer, but this will be only by about 5 to 10 minutes.
Myth 16:
School kids will walk home at the hottest time of the day.

The thing here is, what is actually the hottest time of the day? This can vary from day to day. Sometimes our maximum can be reached well before noon, other times as late as 5:30pm. There is no hottest time of the day, it all just depends on the conditions on the day. The UV factor also helps WITH daylight saving. According the Bureau of Meteorology, the UV alert for 12th December for Perth, was between 9:10am and 5:20pm daylight saving time. This means children are only walking home under a UV alert after school. Under standard time the UV alert for this day will start at 8:10am when most kids are walking to school too. Plus now a days, most parents bring and pick up their children to and from school.

Myth 17:
Daylight Saving would be better in winter.

This is another favourite by some. Yes, later sunsets during winter would be great. But the problem is in the morning. If people are complaining about the later sunrises in March, then can you imagine what they would be saying in July? Sunrise at that time of the year is at 7:17am, under daylight saving time that would be pushed back to 8:17am. Which would be far too late.

Myth 18:
The cows have trouble milking during daylight saving.

This can be true at the start of daylight saving. Cows will be use to their routine, but like humans, they will adapt. In some cases farmers can keep the cows on their standard time schedule, but granted, this can pose problems when the tankers comes at the same clock time. However, farmers may not like it over east, or in Europe, or in North America, but they have been dealing with daylight saving for decades, every summer. Why do farmers in Western Australia think they are different to farmers elsewhere? They do a great job for our state, but a farmer's job changes little with daylight saving. A study in New Zealand found that most even liked daylight saving, even though they thought it went for a month too long there. Surely our farmers can cope too?

jacoba@arach.net.au.


since the 27th January, 2009

This page was last updated on the 1st January, 2009 at 6:00pm WDT

http://members.iinet.net.au/~john1234/daylight/

 

[Great_Ocean_Road]

Of course not. That's the absurdity of this three year trial.

However, the issue HAS been put to referendum. If it is voted no for the FOURTH time, then this ridiculous bitching, whining and worst of all, waste of millions of dollars should never be revisited again.

From what I can see its the people who are leaning towards no that are doing the bitching and whining.

 

[Docker Clint]

I never said change is the way forward. Don't be putting words in my mouth. I don't care which way the DLS issue goes. I just think WA is a vote NO state and is backwards when it comes to most things.

If it's something good, then don't you think people will vote yes. People don't say no to something just for the sake of it. They say no because they feel it will have a negative impact on their lives or the lives of others.

I doubt anyone consciously goes to the polls and thinks "I will vote no because I'm afraid of change".

The point you made is a bullying tactic often used by people wanting to get their own way.

 

[Eagle87]

If it's something good, then don't you think people will vote yes. People don't say no to something just for the sake of it. They say no because they feel it will have a negative impact on their lives or the lives of others.

I doubt anyone consciously goes to the polls and thinks "I will vote no because I'm afraid of change".

The point you made is a bullying tactic often used by people wanting to get their own way.

I suspect you are correct on the bolded bit.

Of course people who are afraid of change and are a little set in their ways will vote no regardless. Most people dont realise thats its fear of change that holds them back from making any number of decisions. Their present circumstances might suck but at least they know what will happen tomorrow.

The funniest part is you throwing at the bullying tactic argument at others...

... on both counts one suspects self-awareness is not your strongest suite.

 

[Docker Clint]

Ohhh, poor baby can't surf in the dark. Ohhh diddums.

more people would perfer to have daylight at the end of the day, not the start.

you don't hear people whinging in victoria or nsw about how they can't run in the dark.



http://members.iinet.net.au/~john1234/daylight/

That's a very skewed website and only presents half the information to come to a conclusion supporting what he wants.

 

[Great_Ocean_Road]

That's a very skewed website and only presents half the information to come to a conclusion supporting what he wants.

How do you know it is skewed?

 

[Eagle87]

If it's something good, then don't you think people will vote yes. People don't say no to something just for the sake of it. They say no because they feel it will have a negative impact on their lives or the lives of others.

In 1967 20% of WA people voted against a change to the Australian Constitution which gave rights to ABoriginal Australians.

That NO rate was 4 times the rate in Vic, 2.5 times the rate in NSW and even double that of Qld.

Clearly it was good but 1 in 5 people in WA still voted no - a much higher percentage than anywhere else. Much higher. Wonder why?

About Referendums:

Australians have in most instances voted No to referendum questions: only 8 out of 44 referendums since 1906 have been carried. In Sir Robert Menzies' words, "to get an affirmative vote from the Australian people on a referendum proposal is one of the labours of Hercules".

If in doubt, people vote no.

.......

Interestingly, the only one of note that got up in WA (a WA only referendum) was secession, which attracted 68% of the popular vote but the Labor Party ,simultaneously winning office while losing the secession debate they had been against. refused to push forward with secession and actively saught the UK's assistance to stop it occuring... imagine if they hadn't?

So the only time we have said yes on a WA issue was secession and that didnt happen. Not exactly a stellar record of action by the good folks of WA.

 

[Bunnie]

How do you know it is skewed?

(sorry guys...had to do this)

How do you know it's not?

(we can do this merry go round all day....)