Europe War in Ukraine - Thread 4 - thread rules updated

[Gethelred]

This is the thread for discussing the War in Ukraine. Should you want to discuss the geopolitics, the history, or an interesting tangent, head over here:

Europe - Backdrop to the war in Ukraine

This is the thread for the geopolitics, history and framework around the Russia-Ukraine conflict. If you want to discuss the events of the war, head over to this thread: https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/war-in-ukraine-thread-4-thread-rules-updated.1376293/page-146

www.bigfooty.com

If a post isn't directly concerning the events of the war or starts to derail the thread, report the post to us and we'll move it over there.

Seeing as multiple people seem to have forgotten, abuse is against the rules of BF. Continuous, page long attacks directed at a single poster in this thread will result in threadbans for a week from this point; doing so again once you have returned will make the bans permanent and will be escalated to infractions.

This thread still has misinformation rules, and occasionally you will be asked to demonstrate a claim you have made by moderation. If you cannot, you will be offered the opportunity to amend the post to reflect that it's opinion, to remove the post, or you will be threadbanned and infracted for sharing misinformation.

Addendum: from this point, use of any variant of the word 'orc' to describe combatants, politicians or russians in general will be deleted and the poster will receive a warning. If the behaviour continues, it will be escalated. Consider this fair warning.

Finally: If I see the word Nazi or Hitler being flung around, there had better have a good faith basis as to how it's applicable to the Russian invasion - as in, video/photographic evidence of POW camps designed to remove another ethnic group - or to the current Ukrainian army. If this does not occur, you will be threadbanned for posting off topic

This is a sensitive area, and I understand that this makes for fairly incensed conversation sometimes. This does not mean the rules do not apply, whether to a poster positing a Pro-Ukraine stance or a poster positing an alternative view.

Behave, people.

 

[barreness]

The only reserves Putin has is the conscripts. No one else. So unless he pulls from other areas, newly fresh faced guys with very limited training will continue to be captured or killed. Putin obviously doesn't give a shit, but the mothers do.

Conscripts can be used for Russian defence, so Kursk is on the cards for them, was a big deal when some were found on the Ukrainian front line.

The Russian force is largely volunteer, memes don't change that

But as Russia is descending into a Nazi state with Putin having a Goebbels like comparable ban on media, the mothers will find it hard to reach an audience.

Every Nazi mention you make weakens the argument. Zelensky literally nationalised the media and put all the major players under state control

 

[Mobbs]

The founder of Telegram, Pavel Durov, has been arrested in France. Telegram is a highly unregulated platform, with no infrastructure in place to protect its use from predators etc. Durov has arrest warrants in a small number of countries because it is expected (quite rightly) that there should be something in place to regulate it and he provided nothing. He merely coded the concept and enjoyed the profits.

Telegram is that great double edged sword - both the good and the bad can be communicated there. The RF has already attempted to nerf its use through litigating that channels with 10k plus followings must be registered so they can monitor for their content. We all know its motives here - just like VK and other platforms which are now (as one ex-Russian youtuber put it) "FSB sinks" where the population is scoured for any anti-empire acticity and SIZO invites follow.

But they're not wrong to arrest the guy. If he didn't want the responsibilty that comes with the platform's growth, then he should have on-sold it earlier.

However, it could lead to an end to Telegram, and that will further censor Russian patriots who desire to defend their country from Putin's destructive policies.

(its easy to find in media, can't be arsed sharing links. Commentary above is my own)

 

[barreness]

They didn't need assistance from us.

True

We didn't follow them into Vietnam, we urged them on. We were keener on them getting involved in Vietnam than they were.

Really? Menzies did hate commies I guess, this is a stretch though

Part of a deliberate policy decision to try to entrap the US into keeping heavily involved in the indo/pacific, and preventing them focussing excessively (in our eyes of course), on Europe.

hahahahahaha, Stockholm syndrome isn't real but you're trying really hard to make it so

The notion that subservient Australia got dragged into conflicts at the behest of its overlord is a historical nonsense.

So what interest did we have in Vietnam, Korea, Iraq, Afghanistan, North Africa, France? Shit what about the dardanelles? was our iron ore going to Odessa

Our contribution was negligible, the amount of support we required from the US logistically meant our presence was a 2 edged sword for them. The political contribution in letting them sell it as a joint effort, and not just the US was marginal, as outside of Australia, most people don't know we were there. And the impracticality of us not joining in was almost entirely down to how much cheering on we had done to get the war started in the first place.

You're making my point for me, this is why you get vassal's involved. Joint responsibility

It's a similar story for all the other conflicts we joined.

It's simple, if unedifying for Australia's sense of nationalism.

The koolaid is tasty

Australia has decided that if the international order and international trade, and access to the seas, are to be controlled, then it's in our interests that it be by the US.

Not really, Curtin made a play because of the Japs, and later tried to pull it back

The 'liberal order, free trade' etc is rubbish, it's hard to understand how you can't see this

We do whatever we can to make the US do this, and whatever we can to make them see us as allies who's interests, it's in their interest, to protect.

We do whatever the US tells us to. Ok here's a question, name one time since '41 where Australia has done something that has gone against US foreign policy?

We can refuse to do what the US wants, anytime we like, and have done so, because it isn't a function of US policy that we do what they want, it's a function of Australian policy.

When?

At a simpler level, US forces never used, asked for, or received, Australian equipment or supplies, we used theirs.

They use our troops? We buy their shit

Russia is asking of Belorussia, the materials needed to fight a war. The US has never needed that from us.

Russia isn't a global hegemn, the cold war ended three decades ago

I know you don't want this to mean that Russia is stretched beyond its capacity to keep its own armies supplied with the materiel required to wage war, but that is what it means.

Border conflicts are a little different to invading 'tyrants' half a world away. I think they can mostly supply their troops though

 

[Mobbs]

On image: "For Durov"
Text below: "He will now fly to Ukraine. Hi from Kursk."

 

[Mobbs]

Curious in learning the details of this, its the first reference I've seen. It's often forgotten that Ukraine do indeed have an active military production presence despite all media focussing on the augmentation of their resources from allied supply. Drone production/development is at the forefront.

From [NOEL Reports]
Today, President Zelenskyi announced the successful first combat use of the Ukrainian missile-drone “Palyanytsia.”

“It is a drone — and it is a missile, because according to its tactical and technical characteristics, the product falls under both definitions,” the ministry of strategic industries added.

Edit: Article on politico

Ukraine claims launch of home-made ‘Palyanytsia’ drone missile at Russia

Kyiv hasn’t released details on the new weapon, but an official said the rocket drone is a form of high-speed precision-targeted projectile.

www.politico.eu

Ukraine says it has deployed a locally-made drone-missile weapon system against Russia for the first time, Ukraine's President Volodymyr Zelenskyy said Saturday.

"The first and successful combat use of our new weapon took place today, a new class of weapon, the Ukrainian missile-drone Palyanytsia," Zelenskyy said during a speech to celebrate the country's Independence Day.

The word Palyanytsia refers to a type of rustic Ukrainian bread but it has also added symbolic significance because since the war started it has been used as a shibboleth to determine Ukrainians from Russians because of different pronunciation of the word.

"This is our new method of retaliation against the aggressor," Zelenskyy said of the weapon.

Officials have long called for western defense companies to help them produce modern arms inside Ukraine, with the likes of Germany's Rheinmetall and Norway's Nammo already agreeing to do so on armored vehicles and ammunition.

The Ukrainian military hasn't officially released details on the specs of the Palyanytsia, but the country's Minister for Strategic Industries, basically Ukraine's armaments production chief, Oleksandr Kamyshin, said Saturday that the rocket drone was a form of high-speed precision-targeted projectile.

“We have mortar drones, artillery drones, and now, we introduce a completely new class of weapon — rocket drones,” said Kamyshin on X. “The rocket drone ‘Palyanytsia’ was successfully used today, striking a military target in temporarily occupied territory.”

 

[Mobbs]

Another thought from inside my head: Russian troops have been looting stores in Kursk oblast on their way out - more footage has surfaced including a raid on a wildberries warehouse. This is in lock with how Russian troops act when occupying Ukrainian territory as well.

But there hasn't been any reporting of rape/murder/abuse of Russian citizens by the same troops, not anything abusive of any kind (apart from abandonment). Now, it could be possible that they haven't had this much time as they are in scarper mode, but it does force me to consider that looting is a natural Russian soldier thing, but the civilian abuses replete throughout Bucha, Irpin, Kupyansk, etc, might in reality have only occurred in the mass they did, as a response to RF orders.

 

[Chief]

Slowly taking territory in Donestk?

"Striking back!"

Like the abusive spouse who has beaten his wife, but any response is met with "I was taking it easy on you before, but now I am mad!"

OK comrade.

 

[barreness]

"Striking back!"

Like the abusive spouse who has beaten his wife, but any response is met with "I was taking it easy on you before, but now I am mad!"

OK comrade.

I'm not the husband nor the wife here chief

Taking Russian territory will sting the Russian leadership here, you disagree?
They'll seek revenge I think

 

[Baldur]

Another thought from inside my head: Russian troops have been looting stores in Kursk oblast on their way out - more footage has surfaced including a raid on a wildberries warehouse. This is in lock with how Russian troops act when occupying Ukrainian territory as well.

But there hasn't been any reporting of rape/murder/abuse of Russian citizens by the same troops, not anything abusive of any kind (apart from abandonment). Now, it could be possible that they haven't had this much time as they are in scarper mode, but it does force me to consider that looting is a natural Russian soldier thing, but the civilian abuses replete throughout Bucha, Irpin, Kupyansk, etc, might in reality have only occurred in the mass they did, as a response to RF orders.

Given the levels of corruption in Russia it may be that they simply do not see looting abandoned shops as wrong. Particularly as they are under paid and their food etc is often rubbish due to corruption by their officers.

So stealing is kind of ok but rape and murder, they only do that to the enemy. This is promoted by the Russian leadership by way of their propaganda showing Ukrainians as nazi terrorists and their failure to punish abuses.

Some of the murders are ordered, I saw video of an officer in Bucha giving orders to an NCO who had several young Ukrainian men in his custody, he led them behind a building. Next scene was a photo of those men, murdered behind that building. The torture chambers are run by the intelligence arm of the Russian state.

Reminds me of the Red Army in WW2.

 

[Mobbs]

The 7th day of the war in the silos at Proletarsk. Battles continue to rage between burning fuel and cries of "woe is us".

Six-day blaze expands in Rostov oil depot after reported follow-up Ukrainian drone strike - Euromaidan Press

A Ukrainian drone allegedly attacked an oil depot in Russia's Rostov Oblast last night, where a fire that started on 18 August has reportedly expanded to kerosene tanks, raising explosion risks.

euromaidanpress.com

At around 5 a.m. on 23 August, a Ukrainian drone allegedly “attempted” to strike the oil depot in Proletarsk, Rostov Oblast, Russia, which has been burning since 18 August after the previous drone attack. This is according to two Russian news Telegram channels, Baza and Eto Rostov Novosti, who reported “no casualties” from the drone’s “fall,” but also did not claim that it was shot down.

 

[Mobbs]

There might have been another prisoner exchange? 115 Ukrainiand defenders returned home yesterday or today.
View attachment IMG_6970.mp4

From [NOEL Reports TG]

 

[Jamolad]

I'm not the husband nor the wife here chief

Taking Russian territory will sting the Russian leadership here, you disagree?
They'll seek revenge I think

Which no doubt you would agree is morally reprehensible, yeah?

Invading Ukraine, taking Ukrainian territory, and then getting offended when Ukraine responds by taking some Russian territory, that they have to get "revenge".

Surely that take is hugely lacking in self-awareness

 

[barreness]

Which no doubt you would agree is morally reprehensible, yeah?

Yes

Invading Ukraine, taking Ukrainian territory, and then getting offended when Ukraine responds by taking some Russian territory, that they have to get "revenge".

Surely that take is hugely lacking in self-awareness

Pretending morality matters in geopolitics is the US empires fever dream propaganda, never has

 

[Baldur]

My opinion, no idea, but just for the laughs

 

[jatz14]

I want a ceasefire you fool

No, you want Ukraine to give in, these things are not synonymous.

On SM-A346E using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[barreness]

No, you want Ukraine to give in, these things are not synonymous.

On SM-A346E using BigFooty.com mobile app

In your parlance they appear to be, I understand your reticence

 

[barreness]

My opinion, no idea, but just for the laughs

View attachment 2090676

Lol, what anyone sane was saying from the start

Ukraine aligned forces did it obvs, be that NATO/Ukraine SF/Norwegian ships etc or most likely a combination is meaningless. It wasn't Russia

 

[wannabejack]

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/norway-approves-ukrainian-production-norwegian-developed-artillery-ammunition-2024-08-23/

NATO allies are racing to increase production of weapons, ammunition and missiles, partly to supply Ukraine but also to replenish stocks and be able to counter new threats.
One approach to boosting deliveries to Ukraine has been to allow for production of ammunition on Ukrainian territory.

 

[barreness]

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/norway-approves-ukrainian-production-norwegian-developed-artillery-ammunition-2024-08-23/

NATO allies are racing to increase production of weapons, ammunition and missiles, partly to supply Ukraine but also to replenish stocks and be able to counter new threats.
One approach to boosting deliveries to Ukraine has been to allow for production of ammunition on Ukrainian territory.

Feel like this has been the headline for 2 years now, if it's a race they're employing the tortoise strategy

 

[wannabejack]

Feel like this has been the headline for 2 years now, if it's a race they're employing the tortoise strategy

Seems like your russian friends have been employing this strategy in Ukraine since 2014.

 

[barreness]

Seems like your russian friends have been employing this strategy in Ukraine since 2014.

"I know you are but what am I"

Think it's pretty conventional knowledge that Russia has the arty advantage in both guns and shell production. NATO's rush to ramp up production is going so well that they're going to start building Norwegian shells in Ukraine, with all those spare workers I guess

 

[Zidane98]

"I know you are but what am I"

Think it's pretty conventional knowledge that Russia has the arty advantage in both guns and shell production. NATO's rush to ramp up production is going so well that they're going to start building Norwegian shells in Ukraine, with all those spare workers I guess

Meanwhile your leader has to beg North Korea for ammo and even has Belarus now supplying the war effort.

The only real difference is Russia being next door to Ukraine making it quick to get ammo to the front line.

Ukraine's doing a repeat of lend lease in WW2 except they have US, Europe and other western nations backing them this time round.

The war can only end in one way for Putin. It's a matter of how much he is prepared to destroy your country before he calls it a day

My solution is a deal is agreed that sees Russia withdraw from Ukraine while allowing Putin to declare a "victory" over Ukraine for propaganda purposes.

 

[Chief]

I'm not the husband nor the wife here chief

No, you're just cheering on the abuser.

Taking Russian territory will sting the Russian leadership here, you disagree?
They'll seek revenge I think

Revenge? Like, they might bomb more hospitals or rape more kids?

 

[barreness]

Meanwhile your leader has to beg North Korea for ammo and even has Belarus now supplying the war effort.

The only real difference is Russia being next door to Ukraine making it quick to get ammo to the front line.

The difference is Russia can pay for it. Ukraine has defaulted by the major ratings agencies and is now a bankrupt nation running purely on aid, whatever rump state assets that remain by the end will be sold in a firesale to those nations that propped up the war effort

Ukraine's doing a repeat of lend lease in WW2 except they have US, Europe and other western nations backing them this time round.

Yet again weird alt history stuff you have going on, this doesn't make sense. At least the tweet you posted on this before was funny

The war can only end in one way for Putin. It's a matter of how much he is prepared to destroy your country before he calls it a day

Do you ever get sick of being wrong?

My solution is a deal is agreed that sees Russia withdraw from Ukraine while allowing Putin to declare a "victory" over Ukraine for propaganda purposes.

Nah, Ukraine will deal eventually with territory lost and you'll call it a victory

 

[Present Not Past]

No, you want Ukraine to give in, these things are not synonymous.

On SM-A346E using BigFooty.com mobile app

A ceasefire is exactly as it sounds, a cessation of conflict with an agreed date of renewed hostilities.
Ukraine doesn't need that.
Ukraine needs and wants an unconditional surrender of Russian occupied Ukrainian territory.