Europe War in Ukraine - Thread 4 - thread rules updated

[Gethelred]

This is the thread for discussing the War in Ukraine. Should you want to discuss the geopolitics, the history, or an interesting tangent, head over here:

Europe - Backdrop to the war in Ukraine

This is the thread for the geopolitics, history and framework around the Russia-Ukraine conflict. If you want to discuss the events of the war, head over to this thread: https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/war-in-ukraine-thread-4-thread-rules-updated.1376293/page-146

www.bigfooty.com

If a post isn't directly concerning the events of the war or starts to derail the thread, report the post to us and we'll move it over there.

Seeing as multiple people seem to have forgotten, abuse is against the rules of BF. Continuous, page long attacks directed at a single poster in this thread will result in threadbans for a week from this point; doing so again once you have returned will make the bans permanent and will be escalated to infractions.

This thread still has misinformation rules, and occasionally you will be asked to demonstrate a claim you have made by moderation. If you cannot, you will be offered the opportunity to amend the post to reflect that it's opinion, to remove the post, or you will be threadbanned and infracted for sharing misinformation.

Addendum: from this point, use of any variant of the word 'orc' to describe combatants, politicians or russians in general will be deleted and the poster will receive a warning. If the behaviour continues, it will be escalated. Consider this fair warning.

Finally: If I see the word Nazi or Hitler being flung around, there had better have a good faith basis as to how it's applicable to the Russian invasion - as in, video/photographic evidence of POW camps designed to remove another ethnic group - or to the current Ukrainian army. If this does not occur, you will be threadbanned for posting off topic

This is a sensitive area, and I understand that this makes for fairly incensed conversation sometimes. This does not mean the rules do not apply, whether to a poster positing a Pro-Ukraine stance or a poster positing an alternative view.

Behave, people.

 

[IlovethePies]

One can only Imagine what the vatniks in this thread would do if the US threatened Russia with nukes for invading a peaceful neighbouring state.

Well we know what you would do
You would laugh it off and say it's just a bluff.

 

[IlovethePies]

I find it interesting that every single Russian barracker on here says they aren't barracking for Russia.

And the harder they barrack, the more they insist they aren't.

It's curious, why is that?

On SM-A346E using BigFooty.com mobile app

Maybe precisely because they aren't.

The vast majority of "barrackers" on these threads are US/NATO barrackers, and they have a strong home ground advantage (in the sense that the dominant propaganda spiel that gets spewed out on a daily basis here is pro-US).

But the roar of the home crowd is so defeaning, and the thinking processes so one sided, that they are quite unable to discern what the opposition is actually saying.

 

[IlovethePies]

The pro-US/NATO posters here apparently are also clairvoyants and mindreaders. They are assuring us that Putin is just bluffing about the use of nuclear weapons in Ukraine if NATO officially joins in the war by providing Ukraine with long range weapons that can be used to strike targets deep within Russia.

To the extent that they do attempt to provide a rational basis for their arguments, it is because the US/NATO have repeatedly crossed all Putin's red lines in the past, so it won't matter if they cross yet another red line. ....

How do these clairvoyants and mindreaders know this for sure??

 

[Zidane98]

Well we know what you would do
You would laugh it off and say it's just a bluff.

.
Yes because the US has made hundreds of empty nuclear threats in the past.

This is the Russia / Ukraine war thread - do yourself a favour and stop bringing up the USA every post.

We get this may be difficult for vatniks who use this as a coping mechanism for the fact that the people of Ukraine reject Russian fascism & subjugation.


But you could at least try.

 

[wannabejack]

The pro-US/NATO posters here apparently are also clairvoyants and mindreaders. They are assuring us that Putin is just bluffing about the use of nuclear weapons in Ukraine if NATO officially joins in the war by providing Ukraine with long range weapons that can be used to strike targets deep within Russia.

To the extent that they do attempt to provide a rational basis for their arguments, it is because the US/NATO have repeatedly crossed all Putin's red lines in the past, so it won't matter if they cross yet another red line. ....

How do these clairvoyants and mindreaders know this for sure??

Putin said many times in the past that they are at war with NATO.
How does it now make it “official” that NATO “joins in the war by providing Ukraine with long range weapons”. NATO and other countries (Australia) have been supplying Ukraine with weapons and equipment for a while now.

Just because you support Ukraine doesn’t mean you also support the US or NATO just like those who support russia don’t necessarily support China, North Korea or Iran who supply weapons and equipment to russia. China would not appreciate russia going nuclear!
There are those who support Ukraine joining NATO because this would greatly reduce the chances of russia invading again.

Those nations supplying weapons to Ukraine have tread carefully in the past before they decided to up the ante in weapons. You would think they would have tread carefully again before upping the ante again.

 

[Mobbs]

I find it interesting that every single Russian barracker on here says they aren't barracking for Russia.

And the harder they barrack, the more they insist they aren't.

It's curious, why is that?

On SM-A346E using BigFooty.com mobile app

One for one, everybody is different, but I can offer the following about "influencer level RF apologists.
I'm not sure about "not barracking for Russia" being a playbook rule for pro-Russian influencers, however they have definitely have had "create chaos" as part of their mandate.
So whenever there's whataboutism, or anti-west diversions, or wild background alternate timelines, I tend to discount them as attempts to distract from the genocidal attempted slaughter of the Ukrainian nation.

 

[Mobbs]

Discussing the war in a SPb bar = a fine.

In St. Petersburg, local resident Tatyana Kuzmina was fined 500 rubles under the article on petty hooliganism (Part 1 of Article 20.1 of the Code of Administrative Offenses). She herself told OVD-Info about this. According to the girl, she was detained for discussing the war in Ukraine in a bar.

Per OVD Info:

Задержания, суды и давление за антивоенные высказывания и критику войны в Украине | ОВД-Инфо

Жители России протестуют против войны в Украине на публичных акциях и выступают в соцсетях с критикой полномасштабного вторжения. Власти реагируют на эти настроения задержаниями, арестами и штрафами. В этой хронике ОВД-Инфо рассказывает о случаях административных и внесудебных преследований.

ovd.info

 

[IlovethePies]

Discussing the war in a SPb bar = a fine.

In St. Petersburg, local resident Tatyana Kuzmina was fined 500 rubles under the article on petty hooliganism (Part 1 of Article 20.1 of the Code of Administrative Offenses). She herself told OVD-Info about this. According to the girl, she was detained for discussing the war in Ukraine in a bar.

Per OVD Info:

Задержания, суды и давление за антивоенные высказывания и критику войны в Украине | ОВД-Инфо

Жители России протестуют против войны в Украине на публичных акциях и выступают в соцсетях с критикой полномасштабного вторжения. Власти реагируют на эти настроения задержаниями, арестами и штрафами. В этой хронике ОВД-Инфо рассказывает о случаях административных и внесудебных преследований.

ovd.info

That is because in Russia it is not a war, it is a "miltary operation".

Neither Russia nor Ukraine are places where democratic rights are respected.

 

[Mobbs]

That is because in Russia it is not a war, it is a "miltary operation".

Neither Russia nor Ukraine are places where democratic rights are respected.

Not since Feb this year after Putin was "re-elected".
Everybody's been calling it a war since then, top-down.
This fine is for discussing the war, not for calling it a war.
On the bright side, 500 rubles is a light tap on the wrist compared to the Brateevo atrocities in 2022.

Ukraine doesn't come within cooee of the oppression levels perpetrated in Russia.

 

[Zidane98]

That is because in Russia it is not a war, it is a "miltary operation".

Neither Russia nor Ukraine are places where democratic rights are respected.

Bullshit.

Ukraine ranks much higher than Russia for press freedom & human rights. 96th out if 180, Russia 164th out of 180.

Ukranians do not want an autocracy or socialism.

Here's the difference between Ukraine and your country :



Ukraine is nothing like the fascist Putin dictatorship ruining Russia.

 

[IlovethePies]

How does it now make it “official” that NATO “joins in the war by providing Ukraine with long range weapons”. NATO and other countries (Australia) have been supplying Ukraine with weapons and equipment for a while now.

Just because you support Ukraine doesn’t mean you also support the US or NATO just like those who support russia don’t necessarily support China, North Korea or Iran who supply weapons and equipment to russia. China would not appreciate russia going nuclear!
There are those who support Ukraine joining NATO because this would greatly reduce the chances of russia invading again.

Those nations supplying weapons to Ukraine have tread carefully in the past before they decided to up the ante in weapons. You would think they would have tread carefully again before upping the ante again.

Putin himself said recently that if NATO and the US were to supply weapons that can strike into the heartland of Russia, this would change fundamentally the character of the war. Here is what he said:

“If this decision is made, it will mean nothing less than the direct participation of NATO countries, the US and European countries, in the conflict in Ukraine.Their direct participation, of course, significantly changes the very essence, the very nature of the conflict.”


The conflict between Ukraine and Russia was triggered by the prospect of Ukraine joining NATO from the very beginning. Since the liquidation of the Soviet Union, the US has been searching out proxy forces to expand its influence in Ukraine as a stepping stone towards destabilising Russia. All the Orange Revolutions peripheral to Russia were backed by the US in order to instal pro-US puppets which would foment ethnic conflicts within Russia itself.

In Ukraine, the Orange Revolution was a debacle, but the pro-US forces that led it continued to maneuvre for political power, and were joined by Ukrainian fascists whose aim is to purify Ukraine from Russians.

The US backed them in, and together they produced the Maidan coup.

The US knew that Russia would react to the installation of a pro EU/NATO/US government in 2014 - that is precisely why they backed it.

The nations supplying weapons to Ukraine (US and NATO) have not tread carefully in the past. They have ignored every warning of the Putin regime, and crossed every red line.

They have been constantly upping the ante. For example, Biden said at the start of the war that there would be no NATO tanks sent to Ukraine, because that would mean WW3. Since then, he has sent tanks to Ukraine.

Biden was asked in a recent press conference by a journalist: “What do you say to Vladimir Putin’s threat of war?” Biden's reply was to tell him to "shut up".

Asked the same question again, Biden replied, “I don’t think much about Vladimir Putin,” before White House staff loudly ushered the press out of the room.

The real madmen in the room are Biden and Starmer, who are on the verge of crossing the Rubicon, yet claiming that there is no danger because everything Putin now threatens is very similar to what he has said over the last 2 and a half years.

 

[IlovethePies]

Ukraine a democracy?
Let's take a look at what is happening in Ukraine.
a) Military thugs are kidnapping men off the streets to force them into the army to die for a cause they reject.

b) Ukrainian government is encouraging European governments to cut off any assistance to Ukrainian refugees so that fighting aged Ukrainian men are forced back to Ukraine where Zelensky will send them into the meat grinder.

c) All left wing opposition to the Zelensky government is banned, and left wing activists are thrown into prison on the fraudulent pretext that because they oppose the war, it necessarily means they are agents of Putin.(similar to this BF thread). There is also ample evidence of torture.

d) Neo-fascists occupy key roles in the Ukrainian government and in the military.

e) Strikes are banned in Ukraine and workers' rights have been eviscerated by a series of legislative bills.

f) In late 2023, Zelensky cancelled the Presidential elections scheduled for 2024 (despite what Zidane might say). Zelensky justified this move as follows: “And if we need to put an end to a political dispute and continue to work in unity, there are structures in the state that are capable of putting an end to it and giving society all the necessary answers.” In other words, all disputes in the political sphere from now on will be ended by the capitalist state. It will be the government, not the democratic will of the people, which will give society "all the necessary answers".

g) There is desperate social inequality in Ukraine, which can only be enforced through dictatorial measures.

h) Since 2021, Zelensky has been working to destroy the existence of an independent judiciary. Zelensky issued a decree in March 2021 by which he tried to dismiss the head of the Constitutional Court Alexander Tupitsky and judge Alexander Kasminin. This was so blatantly illegal that the Supreme Court cancelled his decrees.

Due to the extreme pressure placed by Ukrainian authorities on the judiciary, a lot of absurd and frankly illegal decisions are made by courts. For example, people are sentenced for “unpatriotic and anti-state” mobile phone conversations, and all opposition parties in Ukraine were banned on the basis of fabricated, blueprinted judgments. (Sounds like what happens if you have a conversation about the war on your mobile phone in a Moscow bar)

 

[IlovethePies]

Bullshit.

Ukraine ranks much higher than Russia for press freedom & human rights. 96th out if 180, Russia 164th out of 180.

Ukranians do not want an autocracy or socialism.

Here's the difference between Ukraine and your country :



Ukraine is nothing like the fascist Putin dictatorship ruining Russia.

Ukraine and Russia are very similar in the nature of their governments. Putin runs a dictatorship, and so does Zelensky.

I don't have a country. I fight for socialist internationalism.

 

[IlovethePies]

There are that many empty threats by Medvedev that there is a dedicated website to list them

A Timeline of Russia’s Nuclear Threats Against the West

While Russia frequently accuses the West of escalation, we look at all the times Russia has made nuclear threats against the West.

united24media.com

One has to be an absolutely deluded pro russian vatnik to even think that quoting Medvedev is proof that Russia's nuclear threats amount to anything.


How utterly embarrassing.

As usual, a stupid response. You would have to be a totally brainwashed fw to discount any threats the Putin regime might make about using nuclear weapons.

 

[Cap]

As usual, a stupid response. You would have to be a totally brainwashed fw to discount any threats the Putin regime might make about using nuclear weapons.

the only nuclear bomb russia will launch is on itself.

 

[IlovethePies]

the only nuclear bomb russia will launch is on itself.

huh???

 

[jatz14]

Maybe precisely because they aren't.

The vast majority of "barrackers" on these threads are US/NATO barrackers, and they have a strong home ground advantage (in the sense that the dominant propaganda spiel that gets spewed out on a daily basis here is pro-US).

But the roar of the home crowd is so defeaning, and the thinking processes so one sided, that they are quite unable to discern what the opposition is actually saying.

We arent Nato barrackers, I'm a The invaded party barracker, and not the Trying to create an empire through wars of conquest barracker.

I know you find this hard to understand, but thats not any essential issue with our position, more a lack of an ability to understand on your part, and hence, not my problem.

 

[IlovethePies]

We arent Nato barrackers, I'm a The invaded party barracker, and not the Trying to create an empire through wars of conquest barracker.

I know you find this hard to understand, but thats not any essential issue with our position, more a lack of an ability to understand on your part, and hence, not my problem.

Ukraine would not last a minute in this war if not for its NATO/US backers.

 

[jatz14]

As usual, a stupid response. You would have to be a totally brainwashed fw to discount any threats the Putin regime might make about using nuclear weapons.

Can we discount the threats that Russia was going to use nukes if a thing happened, and it happened a while ago, and they haven't just not used them, they haven't even mentioned them.

You know, if the school bully says he is going to punch you if you do something, so you do it, and he just pretends he never said anything at all, thats an empty threat. Its literally the definition of an empty threat.

 

[IlovethePies]

Can we discount the threats that Russia was going to use nukes if a thing happened, and it happened a while ago, and they haven't just not used them, they haven't even mentioned them.

You know, if the school bully says he is going to punch you if you do something, so you do it, and he just pretends he never said anything at all, thats an empty threat. Its literally the definition of an empty threat.

Your arguments belong exactly where you said - in the school yard.
Maybe you need to elevate yourself above primary school thinking.

 

[jatz14]

Ukraine would not last a minute in this war if not for its NATO/US backers.

It lasted more than a minute before any backing from the West arrived. So, we can show your wrong right of the bat. This war was supposed to last a few weeks, and it was months before meaningful Western aid arrived, and Ukraine had stopped them already.

The Russian assault on Kyev was stopped, by Ukraine, with almost no assistance. So, no Ukraine would last more than a minute against Russia without aid, because they DID las more than a minute against Russia without aid.

Or, are you one of those morons that believe that Russia put most of its military assets in a fake attack on Kyev, to bolster an attack in the East that ground to a halt because most of the assets where headed to Kyev. You are aren't you, I can just tell, tell me you are.

 

[jatz14]

Your arguments belong exactly where you said - in the school yard.
Maybe you need to elevate yourself above primary school thinking.

So, thats a yes? But your not big enough to say so?

 

[IlovethePies]

It lasted more than a minute before any backing from the West arrived. So, we can show your wrong right of the bat. This war was supposed to last a few weeks, and it was months before meaningful Western aid arrived, and Ukraine had stopped them already.

The Russian assault on Kyev was stopped, by Ukraine, with almost no assistance. So, no Ukraine would last more than a minute against Russia without aid, because they DID las more than a minute against Russia without aid.

Or, are you one of those morons that believe that Russia put most of its military assets in a fake attack on Kyev, to bolster an attack in the East that ground to a halt because most of the assets where headed to Kyev. You are aren't you, I can just tell, tell me you are.

Look mate, you really have no clue.
Ever since 2014, the US and NATO have been training the Ukrainian military and sending in weaponry. Nothing in the Ukrainian war effort would have been possible without the assistance of the US and NATO governments - going back to 2014.

The Zelensky regime is totally dependent on military packages from Washington.

Don't know what BS you are regurgitating about a fake attack on Kiev....

 

[barreness]

That's a poor response, you're better than that.

No I'm not, and neither are you lol

You know the point I was making is your double-standards when it comes to justifying deaths when the Russians were fighting for their sovereignty and survival in WWII, but you see the deaths in this current conflict as a pointless waste of life when Ukraine are fighting for their sovereignty and their country's survival against an aggressor.

Read the post I responded to; Soviets killed their own in military action apparently and the Germans "lost" them, suspicious wording much

You do know about lebensraum yeh? They were literally murdering every untermensch they could as they progressed through the soviet union. This is not what Russia is currently doing.

I never mentioned fighting for sovereignty. Every day Ukraine keeps fighting this losing battle the greater the loss of sovereignty will be in the end.
Should have made a deal ala Georgia in mid 2022, Georgia is still sovereign and hasn't been genocided 16 years later

You argue your points very well, usually managing to maintain the appearance of neutrality, but every now and then you display your bias and double-standards, and when called out on it your go-to is always a pathetic response similar to the above and then move on like nothing happened.

Pathetic? Please man, read the post I was responding to.

I'm not attempting to be neutral, I'm trying to explain how the world works. It's not pretty and most of it I find unconscionable

 

[Sarcoidevo]

Ukraine and Russia are very similar in the nature of their governments. Putin runs a dictatorship, and so does Zelensky.

I don't have a country. I fight for socialist internationalism.

Yay ... socialist internationalism ..... is that where the wealth of world is shared equally and no one is richer than anyone else? Or are the leaders of the movement allowed to be wealthier than the workers?