Europe War in Ukraine - Thread 4 - thread rules updated

[Gethelred]

This is the thread for discussing the War in Ukraine. Should you want to discuss the geopolitics, the history, or an interesting tangent, head over here:

Europe - Backdrop to the war in Ukraine

This is the thread for the geopolitics, history and framework around the Russia-Ukraine conflict. If you want to discuss the events of the war, head over to this thread: https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/war-in-ukraine-thread-4-thread-rules-updated.1376293/page-146

www.bigfooty.com

If a post isn't directly concerning the events of the war or starts to derail the thread, report the post to us and we'll move it over there.

Seeing as multiple people seem to have forgotten, abuse is against the rules of BF. Continuous, page long attacks directed at a single poster in this thread will result in threadbans for a week from this point; doing so again once you have returned will make the bans permanent and will be escalated to infractions.

This thread still has misinformation rules, and occasionally you will be asked to demonstrate a claim you have made by moderation. If you cannot, you will be offered the opportunity to amend the post to reflect that it's opinion, to remove the post, or you will be threadbanned and infracted for sharing misinformation.

Addendum: from this point, use of any variant of the word 'orc' to describe combatants, politicians or russians in general will be deleted and the poster will receive a warning. If the behaviour continues, it will be escalated. Consider this fair warning.

Finally: If I see the word Nazi or Hitler being flung around, there had better have a good faith basis as to how it's applicable to the Russian invasion - as in, video/photographic evidence of POW camps designed to remove another ethnic group - or to the current Ukrainian army. If this does not occur, you will be threadbanned for posting off topic

This is a sensitive area, and I understand that this makes for fairly incensed conversation sometimes. This does not mean the rules do not apply, whether to a poster positing a Pro-Ukraine stance or a poster positing an alternative view.

Behave, people.

 

[Zidane98]

To all the crackpots out there who told us that Russian wanted peace negotiations at the start of the war but they were being curtailed by Ukraine, the truth has finally come out.

Ukraine wanted a condition put in the resolution that if they were attacked again, then other countries could help close its air space and provide necessary weapons to oppose. Russia instead basically wanted to be part of any “response” which was in effect a veto to stop any opposition when they attacked again.

And the same crackpots still believe Russia would adhere to any ceasefire…..

The same crackpots are saying Ukraine wants war because it won't accept Putin's offer of turning over all 4 territories to Russia, changing the Ukranian flag to the Russian flag, changing the national currency to the ruble, changing the official language to Russian, joining CSTO and turning down NATO.

 

[Saint]

Probably because they're paying for it. I can't really decide where Russian tax dollars go but a billion of Aus tax payer dollars into a failed proxy war that prolongs civilian pain seems foolish

Sounds like Neville Chamberlain lives!

If we let Russia conquer Ukraine, it won't be long until they're in Moldova, then Poland, then the rest of the Baltics.

If this was the 20th century, the plan would be to conquer Moscow and topple the Govt. At the moment, the globe would be satisfied with just Russia getting out of Ukraine.

 

[Saint]

The same crackpots are saying Ukraine wants war because it won't accept Putin's offer of turning over all 4 territories to Russia, changing the Ukranian flag to the Russian flag, changing the national currency to the ruble, changing the official language to Russian, joining CSTO and turning down NATO.

They also want them to disarm. Because there's no way Russia would take advantage of that in the future....

 

[Aussie in exile]

They also want them to disarm. Because there's no way Russia would take advantage of that in the future....

Russia lies. Putin lies.
Remember when they massed troops on the Ukraine border and said they had no intention of invading Ukraine, but they did.

 

[barreness]

The idea that you can assume land from your neighbour for your own safety is absurd. St Petersburg didn't exist when the borders between Sweden and Russia were being fought over. Then Russia builds a capital because they want to be nearer to Europe, then they steal Finish land because they're afraid because Europe is a threat?

I mean are we really going back to the 17th century? when Sweden owned most of Scandanavia, some of the Baltics, and Finland was part of their empire.

It's complete nonsense. The people of Viipuri and Finland are the example of why Ukraine shouldn't give up sovereign territory. The Russians purged not only the Russian side of the border before the war of native Ingrian Finnic people, but Stalin purged and undertook forced deportations of captured Finland too.

The point was Finland maintained sovereignty after rejecting the more powerful empire on their border, through land concessions and some international wrangling. This is the option for Ukraine imo

You won't find me defending Stalin's various purges

Russia has, and continues to, ethnically cleanse all conquered land. So they simply cannot be allowed to conquer land or retain any land. The deaths after the occupation of civilians have always far out-weighed the military losses.

I mean their were many ethnicities under the USSR banner, some treated terrible, some gaining a level of autonomy. To suggest a lebensraum project is a stretch. The ethnic cleansing of the Russian federation over 30 years has been limited to a pocket of Georgia and and now whatever happens in Ukraine, both contained significant Russian ethnic/speaking populations and haven't resulted in mass death camps

 

[barreness]

They also want them to disarm. Because there's no way Russia would take advantage of that in the future....

Yes, that's why it's a negotiation, no way Ukraine could ever consider a full disarmament

 

[wannabejack]

Amazing how some can be so blasé about ethnic cleansing. “Limited” ethnic cleansing is still ethnic cleansing.
I guess that those in occupied Georgia and Ukraine can be grateful that Putin hasn’t set up mass death camps yet. You don’t need mass death camps to have a mass burial site like the one near the Ukrainian city of Mariupol.

 

[CD Xbow]

Amazing how some can be so blasé about ethnic cleansing. “Limited” ethnic cleansing is still ethnic cleansing.
I guess that those in occupied Georgia and Ukraine can be grateful that Putin hasn’t set up mass death camps yet. You don’t need mass death camps to have a mass burial site like the one near the Ukrainian city of Mariupol.

Yes, they always say 'you can't be a little bit pregnant', ethnic cleansing is somewhat similar. USSR had a terrible history of ethnic cleansing of folks within the union such as Chechens, Ukrainians, Ingush, Volga Germans, Crimean Tatars, Kalmyks and Karachay. Then there were the efforts directed towards the people the USSR acquired in Europe in WWII. It's a horrid history affecting millions of people.

 

[Zidane98]

Note the date of tweet....

 

[Zidane98]

Amazing how some can be so blasé about ethnic cleansing. “Limited” ethnic cleansing is still ethnic cleansing.
I guess that those in occupied Georgia and Ukraine can be grateful that Putin hasn’t set up mass death camps yet. You don’t need mass death camps to have a mass burial site like the one near the Ukrainian city of Mariupol.

Putin has filtration camps for Ukranians.

 

[Zidane98]

Yes, that's why it's a negotiation, no way Ukraine could ever consider a full disarmament

To be fair they did have a negotiated agreement where they transfer their cruise missiles & nuke arsenal plus TU160 fleet to Russia in exchange for Russia agreeing to respect Ukranian territory and not attack it.

Ukraine will not make the same mistake again military wise.

And for Ukraine the only answer to this is NATO membership to keep the fascist Russians out for good.

 

[barreness]

To be fair they did have a negotiated agreement where they transfer their cruise missiles & nuke arsenal plus TU160 fleet to Russia in exchange for Russia agreeing to respect Ukranian territory and not attack it.

It was part of nuclear non-proliferation, don't think Ukraine could take the cost of maintenance and didn't have the launch codes. The bombers were sold back and would have been put to scrap metal if Ukraine kept them.

Ukraine will not make the same mistake again military wise.

And for Ukraine the only answer to this is NATO membership to keep the fascist Russians out for good.

Does NATO want them? I don't think so, agreed to consider them like 16 years ago and it hasn't gone anywhere, can't see it moving when they have occupied territory

 

[barreness]

Amazing how some can be so blasé about ethnic cleansing. “Limited” ethnic cleansing is still ethnic cleansing.
I guess that those in occupied Georgia and Ukraine can be grateful that Putin hasn’t set up mass death camps yet. You don’t need mass death camps to have a mass burial site like the one near the Ukrainian city of Mariupol.

I mean it's messy, but yeh limited. Worse is/has happening by an order of magnitude in Yemen, Sudan, Gaza, and probably Ukraine(need some independent investigations)


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russo-Georgian_War#Humanitarian_impact_and_war_crimes
Georgia and South Ossetia have filed complaints about alleged war crimes committed by the other side with international courts, including the International Criminal Court,[308] the International Court of Justice,[309] and the European Court of Human Rights.[310]

The war displaced a 192,000 people including both Ossetians and Georgians.[28] Many were able to go back to their homes after the war, but a year later around 30,000 ethnic Georgians were still uprooted.[311] As of May 2014, 20,272 persons were still displaced, with their return being blocked by de facto authorities.[312] The International Criminal Court concluded its investigation in the Situation in Georgia in December 2022, delivering arrest warrants for three de facto South Ossetian officials believed to bear responsibility for war crimes committed during the 2008 war

 

[Visions]

Putin visit to another terrorist state in Nth Korea went well.

 

[Mobbs]

Ukraine hit three Oil depots and/or refineries prev night with UAVs. [Denys Davydov]

Ukraine hit three oil depot/refineries in Russia overnight. UAVs visited the Afipsky refinery in the Krasnodar region and the Enem oil depot in Adygea. Another refinery in the Tambov region was also hit by at least 3 UAVs.

Edit: The fire from the earlier attack on the fuel storage in Azov town is still burning after 3 days. [ASTRA] [SOTA]

 

[Mobbs]

During a recent soccer match between Georgia and Turkey, the Georgian crowd can be heard for a short moment chanting "Putin is a dick". It's difficult to find the footage now, because the RF troll collective has been busy bot-reporting any upload of this footage in order to get it removed, and we all know how Youtube works.

But it's still preserved in some places, including now Bigfooty.
View attachment IMG_7997.MP4

 

[Mobbs]

Navalny's gravesite was deleted from the map app of Yandex ...



And Kara-Murza has been moved to one of the most vicious prison locations in Russia for something about where his hands were placed aka it won't be long before his gravesite is removed from Yandex maps.

 

[Mobbs]

Phone footage of a dugout in the Belgorod region as artillery struck. [Kill Pukin TG]
View attachment IMG_9764.MP4

 

[Saint]

The point was Finland maintained sovereignty after rejecting the more powerful empire on their border, through land concessions and some international wrangling. This is the option for Ukraine imo

You won't find me defending Stalin's various purges

I mean their were many ethnicities under the USSR banner, some treated terrible, some gaining a level of autonomy. To suggest a lebensraum project is a stretch. The ethnic cleansing of the Russian federation over 30 years has been limited to a pocket of Georgia and and now whatever happens in Ukraine, both contained significant Russian ethnic/speaking populations and haven't resulted in mass death camps

Your sanitisation of the Finland War to "land concessions and international wrangling" completely overlooks how many Fins were purged from before the war and all the way through their Russian occupation history.

You are by proxy defending purges, by suggesting land concessions by Ukraine would be a good result, when we know it will result in the deaths of many Ukrainians.

"If" you limit your knowledge of history of Russia to the last 30 years, they've only occupied parts of Georgia and Chechnya, and they've ethnically cleansed both of them. They've got a 100% record of ethnically cleansing areas they conquer.

Given they've already started kidnapping and adopting off Ukrainian children back into Russia, it's already begun.

And you pretending it isn't or won't happen doesn't mean the Ukrainians don't know that it will.

 

[Saint]

Yes, they always say 'you can't be a little bit pregnant', ethnic cleansing is somewhat similar. USSR had a terrible history of ethnic cleansing of folks within the union such as Chechens, Ukrainians, Ingush, Volga Germans, Crimean Tatars, Kalmyks and Karachay. Then there were the efforts directed towards the people the USSR acquired in Europe in WWII. It's a horrid history affecting millions of people.

Don't forget East Germans and Poles.

Ethnic demography of Kazakhstan - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

You can see where the people were re-settled from, by looking at the ethnicity of Kazakhstan during the Soviet Era.

A mlilion Ukrainians, a million Germans.

Everyone in central and Eastern Europe knows what Russia does to minorities. But there are Tankies here telling us that Ukraine should just let Russia occupy parts of Ukraine because all they want to do is protect minorities?? It's just about the dumbest thing anyone could believe about Russia, that they care about protecting minorities.

 

[Saint]

It was part of nuclear non-proliferation, don't think Ukraine could take the cost of maintenance and didn't have the launch codes. The bombers were sold back and would have been put to scrap metal if Ukraine kept them.

Does NATO want them? I don't think so, agreed to consider them like 16 years ago and it hasn't gone anywhere, can't see it moving when they have occupied territory

Ukraine knows it's the only thing which will keep Russia from coming back, so should be a non-negotiable for them. Russia broke the agreement in 2014, occupying Crimea and Donbass, they can't be trusted not to break another one.

What other guarantee is there, other than NATO membership for Ukraine?

 

[Zidane98]

"It's ok for North Korea to arm Russia so I can invade Ukraine like a raging fascist but Ukraine being armed by South Korea to defend its civilians? - Outrageous!"

 

[Visions]

"It's ok for North Korea to arm Russia so I can invade Ukraine like a raging fascist but Ukraine being armed by South Korea to defend its civilians? - Outrageous!"

Just like all the other threats this muppet has made before, its all bluff and bluster and nothing will happen.

And the world knows it. So many times Putin's "red lines" have been crossed with nothing happening in response so he's just now a version of an angry man yelling at clouds.

Just on the topic, when Finland joined NATO, the Russian ministry said there would be a retaliation and Putin himself said there would be consequences and his stooges would create a new military district in the region close by and pack it with units.

As usual it was all BS and we have this today. The guy is a cowardly fraud.

 

[Zidane98]

I wonder what is likely to follow this sort of rhetoric.....

 

[Zidane98]

Brilliant idea