Europe War in Ukraine - Thread 4 - thread rules updated

[Gethelred]

This is the thread for discussing the War in Ukraine. Should you want to discuss the geopolitics, the history, or an interesting tangent, head over here:

Europe - Backdrop to the war in Ukraine

This is the thread for the geopolitics, history and framework around the Russia-Ukraine conflict. If you want to discuss the events of the war, head over to this thread: https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/war-in-ukraine-thread-4-thread-rules-updated.1376293/page-146

www.bigfooty.com

If a post isn't directly concerning the events of the war or starts to derail the thread, report the post to us and we'll move it over there.

Seeing as multiple people seem to have forgotten, abuse is against the rules of BF. Continuous, page long attacks directed at a single poster in this thread will result in threadbans for a week from this point; doing so again once you have returned will make the bans permanent and will be escalated to infractions.

This thread still has misinformation rules, and occasionally you will be asked to demonstrate a claim you have made by moderation. If you cannot, you will be offered the opportunity to amend the post to reflect that it's opinion, to remove the post, or you will be threadbanned and infracted for sharing misinformation.

Addendum: from this point, use of any variant of the word 'orc' to describe combatants, politicians or russians in general will be deleted and the poster will receive a warning. If the behaviour continues, it will be escalated. Consider this fair warning.

Finally: If I see the word Nazi or Hitler being flung around, there had better have a good faith basis as to how it's applicable to the Russian invasion - as in, video/photographic evidence of POW camps designed to remove another ethnic group - or to the current Ukrainian army. If this does not occur, you will be threadbanned for posting off topic

This is a sensitive area, and I understand that this makes for fairly incensed conversation sometimes. This does not mean the rules do not apply, whether to a poster positing a Pro-Ukraine stance or a poster positing an alternative view.

Behave, people.

 

[Sarcoidevo]

The only thing I can guarantee is that if capitalism continues, social inequality will get far worse than even it is now, dictatorial forms of rule will emerge world wide, climate change will produce unpredictable environmental and social catastrohes, and war will envelop the planet, leading inevitably to nuclear armageddon.

Thanks .... but it didn't answer my questions

 

[IlovethePies]

Thanks .... but it didn't answer my questions

No, because none of your questions can actually be answered definitively.
If you are interested, you will do your research.
If you are not, you won't.

 

[Sarcoidevo]

The only thing I can guarantee is that if capitalism continues indefinitely, social inequality will get far worse than even it is now, dictatorial forms of rule will emerge world wide, climate change will produce unpredictable environmental and social catastrohes, and war will envelop the planet, leading inevitably to nuclear armageddon.

I don't claim to be Nostra Damus (as others do here) so Im not putting any time frame on it. I am simply referring to the trajectory of events.

So under Socialist Internationalism.... there is no sense of dictatoral policy?

Like you must comply or else ..... what if I rebel a bit .... or maybe work harder than others ..... would Doctors saving lives earn more than a rubbish collector?

Thanks again!!

 

[Zidane98]

Why do they keep taking over other countries then?

Russia is a peaceful nation that by an extremely unfortunate coincidence is surrounded by special military operations & wars.

 

[Sarcoidevo]

No, because none of your questions can actually be answered definitively.
If you are interested, you will do your research.
If you are not, you won't.

So Socialist Internationalism has no absolute gameplan ...... just let's see where it takes us .... and trust us that it will all work out and be great ... OK I think I understand ... sort of

Anyway what about this payscale thingy .... across different industries? and the awesome equal wealth plan where there is no exploitation across the entire world?

Sorry it just seems like your an expert on this subject and passionate

Thanks again!!

 

[Zidane98]

Ah so just because Russia wanted a more strategic port, they were justified in invading another country, and conducting a sham referendum to pretend (to absolutely no-one) that it was the legitimate will of the people.

Not to mention the other parts of Ukraine, and other countries Russia has invaded.

Not to mention the fact that Russia had a lease on Sevastopol until 2042.

All that was needed was for Russia to respect all treaties / agreements signed with Ukraine and not being a bunch of invading fascists.

Putin chose the latter in pursuit of his dream if a new Russian empire.

He has failed and will continue to fail. Simply because the people of Ukraine want a future like Poland. Not like Belarus.

As a result Sevastopol is now useless to Russia. Half of the Black Sea fleet denazified by Ukraine. The other half have fled to ports far from Crimea. All at the hands of Ukraine who doesn't have a navy.

 

[IlovethePies]

So under Socialist Internationalism.... there is no sense of dictatoral policy?

Like you must comply or else ..... what if I rebel a bit .... or maybe work harder than others ..... would Doctors saving lives earn more than a rubbish collector?

Thanks again!!

You are simply spouting capitalist anti-communist propaganda.
The fundamental lie of US propaganda was to promote the historical lie that the Stalinist dictatorship in the Soviet Union represented socialism.
And, the Stalinists themselves also promoted this lie, to maintain the allegiance of vast masses in the world's population who were seeking a way to free themselves from the exploitation and misery of capitalism.
But genuine socialism has not yet been established.
Genuine socialism means the abolition of all national governments by the working class, and the establishment of a world planned economy.
Under a world planned economy, in which production was for social need and not for private profit, your questions would make no sense.
Every person in the world would be guaranteed a decent standard of living, along with education and access to health services for their children and familes.
When everyone in society is assured that their social needs will be satisfied, there will be no place for such petty rivalries as who earns more, a garbage collector or a doctor.
In fact, the occupation of "garbage collector" will be rendered obsolete by robots and automated technology. All the garbage collectors in the world will be freed to pursue their intellectual and creative interests.
Like I said, if you want to open your mind go to the wsws.
Otherwise, stay where you are, trapped in a mental straitjacket of anticommunist propaganda.

 

[IlovethePies]

Not to mention the fact that Russia had a lease on Sevastopol until 2042.

So you are claiming that the Ukrainian government, having maintained possession over Crimea, would have honoured the lease treaty with Russia???

 

[Zidane98]

Sorry ... also does it mean that workers across all industries get paid the same monthly wage? Including AFL Footballers? Actors?

Thanks!!

Taking salary cap equalisation to the extreme.

 

[Zidane98]

So you are claiming that the Ukrainian government, having maintained possession over Crimea, would have honoured the lease treaty with Russia???

Of course, if Russia honoured all the agreements it signed.

The good old USA even encouraged Ukraine to hand over its nuclear weapon stockpile and bomber fleet to Russia in exchange for Russia recognising Ukranian sovereignty and never to attack Ukraine in a treaty.

We all know why you leave that fact out of your rants. Are you even aware of that at the internet research agency?

 

[IlovethePies]

Taking salary cap equalisation to the extreme.

However, racists will be paid less.

 

[Mobbs]

Speaking of doctors, Doctors Without Borders is pulling out of Russia following loss of legal status to operate there.

 

[Sarcoidevo]

You are simply spouting capitalist anti-communist propaganda.
The fundamental lie of US propaganda was to promote the historical lie that the Stalinist dictatorship in the Soviet Union represented socialism.
And, the Stalinists themselves also promoted this lie, to maintain the allegiance of vast masses in the world's population who were seeking a way to free themselves from the exploitation and misery of capitalism.
But genuine socialism has not yet been established.
Genuine socialism means the abolition of all national governments by the working class, and the establishment of a world planned economy.
Under a world planned economy, in which production was for social need and not for private profit, your questions would make no sense.
Every person in the world would be guaranteed a decent standard of living, along with education and access to health services for their children and familes.
When everyone in society is assured that their social needs will be satisfied, there will be no place for such petty rivalries as who earns more, a garbage collector or a doctor.
In fact, the occupation of "garbage collector" will be rendered obsolete by robots and automated technology. All the garbage collectors in the world will be freed to pursue their intellectual and creative interests.
Like I said, if you want to open your mind go to the wsws.
Otherwise, stay where you are, trapped in a mental straitjacket of anticommunist propaganda.

Wow you sound angry ... like crazy angry

Are all socialist internationalism revolutionists like this?

What would be your preferential equal pay industry to work in?

A brain surgeon or manage a pro shop at a golf course? Gawd just imagine all golfers using the same sticks .... would be pretty fair ... so that's a good thing

I guess there would be no need for a Salary Cap either .... across any sport .... just all sportspeople earning the same ... same as the dude in the pro shop who wasn't good enough to make it

 

[Zidane98]

However, racists will be paid less.

Sounds like you are defending your mate Putin who conscripts from ethnic minorities and even tricks Indian & Nepalese citizens into mobilisation.

 

[IlovethePies]

Wow you sound angry ... like crazy angry

Are all socialist internationalism revolutionists like this?

What would be your preferential equal pay industry to work in?

A brain surgeon or manage a pro shop at a golf course? Gawd just imagine all golfers using the same sticks .... would be pretty fair ... so that's a good thing

I guess there would be no need for a Salary Cap either .... across any sport .... just all sportspeople earning the same ... same as the dude in the pro shop who wasn't good enough to make it

Sorry if i come across as angry
I am simply passionate about fighting to stop the destruction of human civilisation (no sarcasm intended).
I am not angry, I just do my best to use strong language to make clear points.
Some I guess will not be happy, because it rocks their boat too much.
But others might think there is merit in refusing to accept the status quo

 

[IlovethePies]

Sounds like you are defending your mate Putin who conscripts from ethnic minorities and even tricks Indian & Nepalese citizens into mobilisation.

...and what do you think Zelensky is doing right now...kidnapping young men off the streets who don't wish to die for super rich Ukrainians, and demanding that European governments expel Ukrainian refugees back to Ukraine so he can dispatch them to their death as well.

But yeah, fully agree, Putin is racist. His government is currently whipping up anti immigrant hysteria, as is every government world wide.

 

[Zidane98]

...and what do you think Zelensky is doing right now...kidnapping young men off the streets who don't wish to die for super rich Ukrainians, and demanding that European governments expel Ukrainian refugees back to Ukraine so he can dispatch them to their death as well.

Zelenaky is not drafting minorities. Ukraine has not been told by leaders of foreign governments to stop sending their citizens to war. Zelensky also has no choice but to fight the invading fascists or Ukraine disappears as a state

Putin has a choice, could end the war tomorrow. He's at the stage now where it us all about his ego after Ukranian troops have heroically held back invaders that rape, murder and torture at will with no help from any other nations.

Stop trying to liken them to each other, they are nothing alike at all not ever will be.

We just need Putin to do the world a favour and fast forward to the part where he kills himself in a bunker surrounded by his countryman trying to restore Russia to its rightful place as a world power.

 

[IlovethePies]

Putin and Zelinsky are both products if the restoration of capitalism in the former USSR. The liquidation of the USSR could only be achieved through the deliberate cultivation of nationalistic and xenophobic policies and propaganda. Both Putin and Zelinsky represent the Stalinist bureaucracy, which stole the nationalised property and transformed themselves into capitalists through privatisation a and corruption. The Stalinists in different regions (Ukraine, Belorussian, Baltic states, Georgia and the former central Asian republics) all played the card of nationalism and racism to divide the working class.
So yes, Putin and Zelensky share the same class nature and both will resort to xenophobia to divide and rule.

 

[Mobbs]

...and what do you think Zelensky is doing right now...kidnapping young men off the streets who don't wish to die for super rich Ukrainians, and demanding that European governments expel Ukrainian refugees back to Ukraine so he can dispatch them to their death as well.

But yeah, fully agree, Putin is racist. His government is currently whipping up anti immigrant hysteria, as is every government world wide.

Claim 1 here is that young men are kidnapped off the streets for military service (the rest of the phrase is pure propaganda - super rich Ukrainians lol) and refers to isolated instances of over-zealous and sometimes outright criminal recruiters. These instances are investigated and resolved - for example there was a kid only 14 who was erroneously approached near Odessa and an investigation ensued to find out why it happened.

There is well-defined regulation of who can and who can't leave Ukraine including electronic registration of your enlistment viability the evidence your exemption if you have such. This documentation can be found in on the government website - and I first saw it when examining the visitukraine website.

Ukraine is in a state of martial law while a far more populous and militarily stronger nation has invaded its borders - that there are rules about trying to leave is hardly a shock.

Claim 2 refers to demands to basically extradite refugees to fight. I am not aware of any demands of nations to send refugees back. However there is a push to advertise to Ukrainian refugees to build companies from those numbers - but for background roles - there have been reports of reasonable tho not exemplary success with this venture. It's possible you read a misreporting of this venture.

This is a big war and there are high casualties on both sides, for sure. But "sending them to their death" is just propaganda wordplay. Remember Ukraine has been invaded, is fighting for its survival, and resistance to Russian occupation has extremely high support from all polls of Ukrainian citizens.

 

[Mobbs]

This must have been a substantial ammunition storage - the cookoff was so extreme that it resulted in fires which led to part of the town Toropets and other villages being evacuated! We've seen some hits on ammunition storage before, but its the first time I've read of residents needing to move to safety en masse.

The location is in Tver oblast east of Moscow, around the town/city of Toropets. But there are other villages even closer to the storage location including a place called Tsikarevo - which is wedged between that storage and a lake - evacuation is very difficult for them.

I originally read "Tver" and assumed it was the large base near Tver city, but it's at the other end of the oblast, well to the east.

More details plus images/video via ASTRA TG:
[ASTRA]

 

[CD Xbow]

The Putin regime is not imperialist.

That's the best joke i have heard for a long time. Made me splutter my coffee on the keyboard.
You should try out for the comedy festival.
Mr P's action are the definition of imperialism. Russia always acts in an imperial way, its in the DNA. Doesn't matter if its a Tsar, General Secretary or President.

 

[Mobbs]

This must have been a substantial ammunition storage - the cookoff was so extreme that it resulted in fires which led to part of the town Toropets and other villages being evacuated! We've seen some hits on ammunition storage before, but its the first time I've read of residents needing to move to safety en masse.

The location is in Tver oblast east of Moscow, around the town/city of Toropets. But there are other villages even closer to the storage location including a place called Tsikarevo - which is wedged between that storage and a lake - evacuation is very difficult for them.

I originally read "Tver" and assumed it was the large base near Tver city, but it's at the other end of the oblast, well to the east.

More details plus images/video via ASTRA TG:
[ASTRA]

More on this, here's a Suchomimas videos that explains stuff much better than I ever could:

 

[Mobbs]

That's the best joke i have heard for a long time. Made me splutter my coffee on the keyboard.
You should try out for the comedy festival.
Mr P's action are the definition of imperialism. Russia always acts in an imperial way, its in the DNA. Doesn't matter if its a Tsar, General Secretary or President.

You must have missed the earlier show where Russia was forced to invade Afghanistan by ... I can't remember something western or capitalist.

 

[jatz14]

Thats going to leave a mark

 

[jatz14]

Explain how referring to posters as "vatniks" and implying that they drink vodka in particular is not racist/Russophobic.

Its not if they are Vatniks, and if they are Vatniks, asking if they drink vodka seems entirely appropriate.