Europe War in Ukraine - Thread 4 - thread rules updated

[Gethelred]

This is the thread for discussing the War in Ukraine. Should you want to discuss the geopolitics, the history, or an interesting tangent, head over here:

Europe - Backdrop to the war in Ukraine

This is the thread for the geopolitics, history and framework around the Russia-Ukraine conflict. If you want to discuss the events of the war, head over to this thread: https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/war-in-ukraine-thread-4-thread-rules-updated.1376293/page-146

www.bigfooty.com

If a post isn't directly concerning the events of the war or starts to derail the thread, report the post to us and we'll move it over there.

Seeing as multiple people seem to have forgotten, abuse is against the rules of BF. Continuous, page long attacks directed at a single poster in this thread will result in threadbans for a week from this point; doing so again once you have returned will make the bans permanent and will be escalated to infractions.

This thread still has misinformation rules, and occasionally you will be asked to demonstrate a claim you have made by moderation. If you cannot, you will be offered the opportunity to amend the post to reflect that it's opinion, to remove the post, or you will be threadbanned and infracted for sharing misinformation.

Addendum: from this point, use of any variant of the word 'orc' to describe combatants, politicians or russians in general will be deleted and the poster will receive a warning. If the behaviour continues, it will be escalated. Consider this fair warning.

Finally: If I see the word Nazi or Hitler being flung around, there had better have a good faith basis as to how it's applicable to the Russian invasion - as in, video/photographic evidence of POW camps designed to remove another ethnic group - or to the current Ukrainian army. If this does not occur, you will be threadbanned for posting off topic

This is a sensitive area, and I understand that this makes for fairly incensed conversation sometimes. This does not mean the rules do not apply, whether to a poster positing a Pro-Ukraine stance or a poster positing an alternative view.

Behave, people.

 

[Crankyhawk]

Explain how referring to posters as "vatniks" and implying that they drink vodka in particular is not racist/Russophobic.

It’s a statement that summaries a pro Russian viewpoint. There is no assumption that you yourself are Russian just that you are simping for the views of Putin. There is no racial bias. There is definitely a bias against the opinion but it’s not racial.

 

[Crankyhawk]

Ah so just because Russia wanted a more strategic port, they were justified in invading another country, and conducting a sham referendum to pretend (to absolutely no-one) that it was the legitimate will of the people.

Not to mention the other parts of Ukraine, and other countries Russia has invaded.

Had they managed to do a sham referendum for all of Ukraine rather than invade Russia would have got what it wanted and the west wouldn’t care.
Putin was too dumb and went in with guns.

 

[jatz14]

How do you know there is "no existential threat to Russia"? Or, how do you know that even if you, the clairvoyant Andre, thinks there is no existential threat, that might not be the case for the military and political leadership in Russia?

How do all these blithe assumptions get made here by individuals who claim to be able to mindread the leadership of a country finding itself under attack by NATO through its Ukrainian proxy?

What would the US do if China started arming proxy forces in Mexico with long range missiles and then began openly to discuss allowing these proxies to use them to hit targets deep within the US, including the capital Washington DC?

Would you then claim that the US would not react by using nuclear weapons, because since 1945 it hasn't done so yet?
Or, more likely, you would support the US in using nuclear weapons against China, thereby leading to the destruction of the planet.

And don't even begin to argue that the analogy is not correct because the US has not invaded a sovereign country, because if you did that , you would be a moron. The list of sovereign countries that the US has invaded, and bombed dwarfs that of Putin's Russia.

You would approve the invasion of Ukraine because it cannot be proven to a certainty that there is no existential threat to Russia?

Well, I can prove there is an existential threat to Ukraine.

The proven existential threat to Ukraine trumps the, cannot be proven to a certainty to not be existential threat to Russia.

Does Russia pose an existential threat to Poland? Its mush more likely than an existential threat to Russia.

Does Russia pose an existential threat to the Baltic states, because thats much more likely than any threat to Russia.

Given you justify the invasion of Ukraine on the basis that we cannot 100% discount and existential threat to Russia. What actions against Russia would you justify on the basis of existential threats it poses to its neighbours, that I am assuming, you cannot 100% discount?


Be very specific. What actions does this threat justify?

At a minimum, making sure Ukraine is backed sufficiently so that Russia cannot win, would be a good start. And I emphasise, start.

 

[Mobbs]

Its not if they are Vatniks, and if they are Vatniks, asking if they drink vodka seems entirely appropriate.

The term vatnik is meant to apply to Russians pushing Russian imperialist propaganda talking points. If you're a Russian in Russia, or even a Russian outside Russia, you are under pressure from astounding levels of misinformation and press control - and even threat to your own freedom and safety, and even that of your familiy, to comply and take part in spreading this view. Sometimes it's a matter of self-protection.

If you're doing the same thing and you're not even Russian nor within Russia, you don't even have that excuse.

 

[IlovethePies]

That's the best joke i have heard for a long time. Made me splutter my coffee on the keyboard.
You should try out for the comedy festival.
Mr P's action are the definition of imperialism. Russia always acts in an imperial way, its in the DNA. Doesn't matter if its a Tsar, General Secretary or President.

...and that is the issue...you do not know the defiinition of imperialism...

Hopefully you have a waterproof keyboard though...

 

[Gethelred]

For the last time...

If you want to talk about NATO or US involvement in funding Ukraine's defense or gesticulate in the direction of wider geopolitics, this is the thread to do it in:

Europe - Backdrop to the war in Ukraine

This is the thread for the geopolitics, history and framework around the Russia-Ukraine conflict. If you want to discuss the events of the war, head over to this thread: https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/war-in-ukraine-thread-4-thread-rules-updated.1376293/page-146

www.bigfooty.com

This thread - the War in Ukraine thread - is significantly more narrow in scope, concerning the events and discussion of the conflict itself.

From this point, posters who stray away from that very simple statement of the thread topics will see their posts deleted. If it keeps happening, threadbans will be issued.

Let's also make sure things are abundantly clear: the rules are not there to be enforced against those you disagree with. Thread regulars who try and lure new posters into breaking the rules will themselves receive infractions or threadbans should it start to happen.

Let's play nicely from here.

 

[Zidane98]

Thats going to leave a mark

More than just a mark

 

[Visions]

Thank God for Russian corruption and the siphoning of public funds.

Supposedly bunkers that were to withstand nuclear attacks were taken out by flimsy UAV drones (or the debris as officials claimed all drones were shot down). Obviously some poorly constructed paper thin wall bunkers.

There is over 20 thousand tonnes of ammo stored there for the northern sector of the Russian army which equates to about 3 weeks worth.

The explosions themselves were registered as earthquakes, thats how big the cook off was.

Fires are still ongoing but initial estimates from hi-def images suggest at least 50% of the bunkers are destroyed/damaged which will impact the Kursk sector.

And the idiots in the Biden administration keep on pretending to tell us that long range attacks on military installations in Russia aren’t of any benefit.

 

[Chief]

Supposedly bunkers that were to withstand nuclear attacks were taken out by flimsy UAV drones. Obviously some poorly constructed paper thin wall bunkers.

I wonder if NK is still sending slave gangs to Russia to build stuff?

 

[jatz14]

...and that is the issue...you do not know the defiinition of imperialism...

Hopefully you have a waterproof keyboard though...

Dictionary
Definitions from Oxford Languages ·

Imperialism
a policy of extending a country's power and influence through colonization, use of military force, or other means.



A policy of extending a countries power and influence, through use of force.

Even the colonialism bit applies to Russia given it moves it's people into areas it occupies.

I guess your using the Vatniks definition of imperialism
Imperialism, a thing only white Western powers do, definitely not Russia, no. Dominating neighbours by force and moving your people in is definitely not imperialism, at least not when Russia does it. It's definitely imperialism when America does it, but not us, it cannot be imperialism when we do it, because we are anti imperialists.

Is that close? Working backwards, it's seems pretty close to what your working definition of imperialism is

On SM-A346E using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Bloods86]

Dictionary
Definitions from Oxford Languages ·

Imperialism
a policy of extending a country's power and influence through colonization, use of military force, or other means.



A policy of extending a countries power and influence, through use of force.

Even the colonialism bit applies to Russia given it moves it's people into areas it occupies.

I guess your using the Vatniks definition of imperialism
Imperialism, a thing only white Western powers do, definitely not Russia, no. Dominating neighbours by force and moving your people in is definitely not imperialism, at least not when Russia does it. It's definitely imperialism when America does it, but not us, it cannot be imperialism when we do it, because we are anti imperialists.

Is that close? Working backwards, it's seems pretty close to what your working definition of imperialism is

On SM-A346E using BigFooty.com mobile app

Might want to respond in the other thread, this one just got cleaned up and told to stay on topic.

 

[Smeg Head]

I wonder if NK is still sending slave gangs to Russia to build stuff?

Yes, they have long had things like logging camps isolated in Siberia where they are sent to work.

 

[Zidane98]

Yes, they have long had things like logging camps isolated in Siberia where they are sent to work.

At least everyone gets paid the same. Socialism ftw.

 

[Mobbs]

Some media from around the Telegram channels:

An old people's home in Sumy was struck by an attack. There are wounded but no numbers given.
(Note the image is actually of evacuated residents, it could look at first glance like they are all casualties but that's not necessarily the case)


A 22 year POW returns to Ukraine after a year or two of torture. Lovingly greeted by family, he is said to be almost unable to respond to most stimuli due to trauma from the experience.
View attachment video_2024-09-20_06-41-31.mp4

Finally, the Ukrainian milbloggers have a bit of fun with this image of a blown out residential window in Toropets (where the 2.8 richter scale ex-ammunition storage is). I don't know the clip that's inserted but he mentions a song, and talks about calm, then starts singing I guess that song, which includes something about sleeping calmly.
View attachment video_2024-09-20_06-43-37.mp4

 

[Zidane98]

Poland FM with an idea to end the war:





Can't say I am totally against this. Crimea demilitarized completely, placed under UN mandate. Not Russian or Ukranian. Russia withdraws from the rest of Ukraine - pays reparations - faces war crime tribunal. Ukraine withdraws from Russia.

Future of Crimea determined in 20 years time, long enough to forget Russian occupation / subjugation.

 

[Couch Coach]

https://x.com/Tendar/status/1836822868992156032 3

From the post: " The first clear satellite images from the ammunition depot of Toropets have been released by Radio Svoboda. My assessment is not yet final because smoke clouds are still blocking partially the view at some areas. Nevertheless, what can be seen is already devastating.
Here are my numbers:
The newly built portion of the base:

• All 23 buildings have been destroyed
• Out of 42 storage bunker at least 15 have been destroyed, 10 more cannot be assessed but are most likely destroyed, due to their proximity to the major bomb crater
• the remaining 17 bunkers show various signs of damages but it is hard to assess the impact of it
• 5 major bombs craters can be seen (yellow)
• Damage rate approximately: over 80%

The old part of the base:

• at least 17 buildings have been destroyed
• at least 2 open air logistics fields are smoldering, probably more in the northwestern portion of the base
• area market in violet cannot be entirely assessed but especially the northern portion seems to be totally gone
• 2 major bomb crater can be seen
• Damage rate approximately: 70%-90%

Given that the damage by excessive heat and kinetic damage caused by shockwaves and shrapnel lead to material deterioration beyond usage, especially missiles and other complex weapon systems, I would call this virtually a total loss of all material on the base, where at best only 10%-20% can be salvaged.

Source of satellite pic: @KOvsianyi

 

[Zidane98]

 

[Bloods86]

I was expecting tractors.

 

[wannabejack]

A Bunch Of Russian Troops Got Together for Target Practice Just 15 Miles From The Front Line In Ukraine. Then They Became The Targets.

Ukraine’s HIMARS took aim, killing around a dozen Russians.

www.forbes.com

 

[Zidane98]

I was expecting tractors.

The John Deere factory is absolute proof NATO are fighting a war against Russia in Ukraine.

Cant be too long before Medvedev threatens to nuke a John Deere (TM) factory after having a few too many at 8 o'clock in the morning on a Wednesday.

 

[Mobbs]

Still a bit up in the air what was actually used to strike Toropets. Among the possibilities is the new Palynitsia.

One video going around includes the sound of an engine which has some considering Palynitsia. However others say the video is from one of the four strikes around Mariupol which happened around the same time.

On SM-A146P using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Baldur]

Putin is becoming entangled in his own discredited red lines

Putin is attempting to impose a new red line over the use of Western long-range missiles inside Russia, but Ukraine has already been using these weapons in occupied regions claimed by Russia for more than a year, writes Peter Dickinson.

www.atlanticcouncil.org

"It should now be obvious that Putin’s red lines are just a bluff intended to scare the West and isolate Ukraine. Over the past two and a half years, his efforts to impose restrictions on his international adversaries have been repeatedly exposed and have grown increasingly detached from the realities of the war. We have now reached the point where Putin’s latest red lines directly contradict his own propaganda. The Russian ruler’s reliance on empty threats underscores the relative weakness of his position. If Western leaders can finally overcome their fear of escalation, they will find that Putin is far less formidable than he would like us to believe."

 

[wannabejack]

Australia plans to transfer its decommissioned Abrams tanks to Ukraine

Ukraine will soon be able to use decommissioned Australian Abrams battle tanks in the war against Russia.

www.pravda.com.ua

 

[Johnny_Dogg4]

 

[Mobbs]

It's a huge explosion, again. Those debris warheads are lethal.

"At night, the Tikhoretsk district was subjected to a terrorist attack by the Kiev regime. Two drones were suppressed by air defense and electronic warfare forces. The falling debris of one of them caused a fire that spread to explosive objects. Detonation began. Now, for safety reasons, a temporary evacuation of residents of the village located near the fire site is underway to nearby populated areas. A temporary accommodation point has been set up in Tikhoretsk. Fire crews and special services are working at the scene. On my instructions, the head of the district, Anatoly Perepelin, is at the scene, reporting on the situation. According to preliminary information, there are no casualties among the residents of the district as a result of the emergency." - Governor of Krasnodar Krai
[ ASTRA TG]