Europe War in Ukraine - Thread 4 - thread rules updated

[Gethelred]

This is the thread for discussing the War in Ukraine. Should you want to discuss the geopolitics, the history, or an interesting tangent, head over here:

Europe - Backdrop to the war in Ukraine

This is the thread for the geopolitics, history and framework around the Russia-Ukraine conflict. If you want to discuss the events of the war, head over to this thread: https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/war-in-ukraine-thread-4-thread-rules-updated.1376293/page-146

www.bigfooty.com

If a post isn't directly concerning the events of the war or starts to derail the thread, report the post to us and we'll move it over there.

Seeing as multiple people seem to have forgotten, abuse is against the rules of BF. Continuous, page long attacks directed at a single poster in this thread will result in threadbans for a week from this point; doing so again once you have returned will make the bans permanent and will be escalated to infractions.

This thread still has misinformation rules, and occasionally you will be asked to demonstrate a claim you have made by moderation. If you cannot, you will be offered the opportunity to amend the post to reflect that it's opinion, to remove the post, or you will be threadbanned and infracted for sharing misinformation.

Addendum: from this point, use of any variant of the word 'orc' to describe combatants, politicians or russians in general will be deleted and the poster will receive a warning. If the behaviour continues, it will be escalated. Consider this fair warning.

Finally: If I see the word Nazi or Hitler being flung around, there had better have a good faith basis as to how it's applicable to the Russian invasion - as in, video/photographic evidence of POW camps designed to remove another ethnic group - or to the current Ukrainian army. If this does not occur, you will be threadbanned for posting off topic

This is a sensitive area, and I understand that this makes for fairly incensed conversation sometimes. This does not mean the rules do not apply, whether to a poster positing a Pro-Ukraine stance or a poster positing an alternative view.

Behave, people.

 

[Zidane98]

Ha Ha

So now, any news source, even if it is a clearly recognised one (such as Reuters) is invalid if it quotes Putin!!

You claimed nuclear doctrine was changed - now quote the official doctrine that says what you claim it does.

Reuters have done nothing more than report Putins claims - which he did make.

To prove this point Reuters and many others reported that Putin stated he wasnt going to invade Ukraine.

Putin did say that but he was obviously bullshitting.

As he is now and you are because you're unable to quote official Russian nuclear doctrine which says Putin can fire a nuke anytime Russia suffers a military embarrassment.

 

[IlovethePies]

So you are happy to see Ukraine geoncided because your improbable world order scenario isn't happening.

How about we all agree to stop the genocidal maniac first, then worry about the socialist take over of society, because Putin won't care about your ideals as he bombs your house

Ukraine is not "being genocided" (as you put it). It is being invaded by an army which no doubt is committing war crimes, as always happens in reactionary wars which only serve the interests of the rich.

How about we abolish the social system which is producing the likes of Putin, AND Biden AND Trump AND Zelensky AND Albanese.....

 

[IlovethePies]

Come on, you've put my original quote and then clipped it within the same post, then complain about me asking you to read.

Huh?
I have boldfaced the post of yours that I was replying to you.
Simple.

 

[Zidane98]

To be fair, Putin did say he wasn't going to invade Ukraine.

I'm pretty sure he also claims he doesn't bomb hospitals.....so what Putin says and what Putin does aren't the same

Bingo.

 

[Sarcoidevo]

Why would Putin use a nuke knowing his country would be retaliated against likewise?

Unless Putin has a deathwish he knows that if uses nukes his beloved Russia will become an ashtray .... all for access to the Black Sea?

If Ukrainians went to the polls right now to vote on whether to align with Russia or Europe .... Europe wins hands down

The moment the Russian bear stepped inside Ukraine ..... Putin lost.... Russia lost

History will not be kind to Putin .... Russian history won't be kind to Putin

 

[Bloods86]

Huh?
I have boldfaced the post of yours that I was replying to you.
Simple.

Yeah, but you only responded to part of it.

You even clipped it in the same post.

 

[Zidane98]

Ukraine is not "being genocided" (as you put it). It is being invaded by an army which no doubt is committing war crimes, as always happens in reactionary wars which only serve the interests of the rich.

How about we abolish the social system which is producing the likes of Putin, AND Biden AND Trump AND Zelensky AND Albanese.....

It's an imperial power invading. Putin thinks Russia owns Ukraine. Nothing to do with socialism. Thus war doesn't even suit the interests of the rich who have been obliterated by it if anything.

 

[IlovethePies]

.

Yeah, but you only responded to part of it.

You even clipped it in the same post.

I have truly lost you, don't know what you are talking about.
Let me know what you think the issue is, because apart from what I have said above, I have no clue.

 

[IlovethePies]

Why would Putin use a nuke knowing his country would be retaliated against likewise?

Unless Putin has a deathwish he knows that if uses nukes his beloved Russia will become an ashtray .... all for access to the Black Sea?

If Ukrainians went to the polls right now to vote on whether to align with Russia or Europe .... Europe wins hands down

The moment the Russian bear stepped inside Ukraine ..... Putin lost.... Russia lost

History will not be kind to Putin .... Russian history won't be kind to Putin

It is true, the moment Putin invaded Ukraine he cut a river of blood between the Ukrainian and Russian working class. That is why I condemn his actions so totally...by invading Ukraine he lined up the Russian working class as enemies of the Ukrainian working class.

But likewise, Zelensky plays the same role. He likewise, as well as all the fascistic Ukrainian nationalists in his regime, are demonising the Russian working class and the Russian population as "orcs", "vermin", "animals"" (these are all terms that I have seen here, on BF) to convince Ukrainian workers that they should slaughter their class brothers in a conflict between the Russian financial oligarchy and the US\NATO capitalist oligarchy.

History will be kind to neither Putin nor Zelensky, and nor to any of the political representatives of world imperialism.

 

[Mobbs]

Well that means, if Russia decides to use nukes against Ukraine, it will also have to use nukes against USA as a prophylactic measure.

Not sure that the posters here have got a sane grip on reality.

If we must appease putin re Nuke threats now, we need to appease him when he threatens you and me. If you don't, then you are OK if civilians are massacred so long as it's not you.

That posits you as the most reprehensible mindset of all humanity. Underneath the dregs are those who feel the way you do.

The. Most. Reprehensible.

On SM-A146P using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[IlovethePies]

If we must appease putin re Nuke threats now, we need to appease him when he threatens you and me. If you don't, then you are OK if civilians are massacred so long as it's not you.

That posits you as the most reprehensible mindset of all humanity. Underneath the dregs are those who feel the way you do.

The. Most. Reprehensible.

On SM-A146P using BigFooty.com mobile app

Tired of such mindnumbingly stupid posts.

 

[IlovethePies]

It's an imperial power invading. Putin thinks Russia owns Ukraine. Nothing to do with socialism. Thus war doesn't even suit the interests of the rich who have been obliterated by it if anything.

If you think this war does not suit the intersts of the rich, then quite frankly you are just admitting that you have NFI.

NFI goes well with NAFOITE.

 

[Sarcoidevo]

Hisrory will be kind to Zelensky for standing up to an oppressive overlord

 

[EagleMan87]

Oh my god...how many times must this be repeated??

I am not in favour of Russia invading Ukraine.

This is what i am saying:

The invasion of Ukraine is a product of imperialism, and the only way that the conflict in Ukraine, or in Gaza, or in Lebanon, or anywhere else, can be resolved is through world socialist revolution, by the working class led by its revolutionary socialist leadership.

Every single government:Biden's, Zelensky's, Netanyahu's, Putin's, Scholz's,Macron's, Sir Keir whatever's, Albanese's, ... are criminal representatives of a capitalist ruling class which the working class needs to start rejecting, en masse.

Because the numbers of the workign class far outnumber those of the capitalist parasites and their paid for political prostitutes, this is entirely practicable. It just needs a vast change in political consciousness.

Hope this makes it clear.

How do you foresee this revolution happening without oppression, exactly? Do you think capitalists will just quietly give up all of their (real or perceived) privileges?

 

[IlovethePies]

Hisrory will be kind to Zelensky for standing up to an oppressive overlord

Depends which class rules society when the final judgement is made.

If it is the working class, he will be judged for what he is: a willing accomplice of US/NATO imperialism, who was happy to send the working class of Ukraine to die for the profit interests of a miniscule layer of Ukrainian financial oligarchs, and their backers in the US and NATO countries.

As will Putin be judged, as a willing accomplice of the russsian capitalist oligarchy to defend its wealth, plundered from the Soviet working class, and happy to send Russian workers and young people to die.

And likewise Biden/Trump/Harris/ all NATO politicians/Netanyahu ...who will be judged as the enemies of mankind, who carried out and agreed with the slaughter of millions to defend the profits of a parasitic, miniscule and historically obsolete layer in society: the capitalist class.

 

[Zidane98]

If you think this war does not suit the intersts of the rich, then quite frankly you are just admitting that you have NFI.

NFI goes well with NAFOITE.

You've got to be the worst pro Russian troll of all time.









Need I go on and embarrass you further?

You're hopeless. Utterly hopeless.

 

[IlovethePies]

How do you foresee this revolution happening without oppression, exactly? Do you think capitalists will just quietly give up all of their (real or perceived) privileges?

No, definitely, the capitalists will not give up their very real privileges and groteseque levels of wealth.
No devil voluntarily cuts its own claws off.

The revolution can only be carried out by the international working class, led by an international revolutionary party.
A party which bases itself not on what is good for any one nation, but what what is good for the international working class.

The establishment, and expansion of influence of this party, requires the political clarification of the highly class conscious and thoughtful sections of the working class.

These layers of workers will then expand their understanding to those who still remain unconvinced.

However, the speed of events, the advanced state of capitalist crisis, will accelerate this process.

The working class is driven to find a way out of capitalism simply because it will not be able to survive otherwise.

The process and dynamics of how this occurred has already been demonstrated in the Russian Revolution.

Now the task is to spread this revolution world wide.

 

[Zidane98]

Tired of such mindnumbingly stupid posts.

We have a winner for most ironic post on bigfooty 2024.

 

[Nothing]

So you want a NWO with one world government?

There's some people on the Conspiracy board you should meet.

 

[EagleMan87]

No, definitely, the capitalists will not give up their very real privileges and groteseque levels of wealth.
No devil voluntarily cuts its own claws off.

The revolution can only be carried out by the international working class, led by an international revolutionary party.
A party which bases itself not on what is good for any one nation, but what what is good for the international working class.

The establishment, and expansion of influence of this party, requires the political clarification of the highly class conscious and thoughtful sections of the working class.

These layers of workers will then expand their understanding to those who still remain unconvinced.

However, the speed of events, the advanced state of capitalist crisis, will accelerate this process.

The working class is driven to find a way out of capitalism simply because it will not be able to survive otherwise.

The process and dynamics of how this occurred has already been demonstrated in the Russian Revolution.

Now the task is to spread this revolution world wide.

So the millions/billions of people who despise any form of socialism (whether or not it actually is socialism, they've been conditioned to hate it) are just going to 'have their understanding expanded' and join in this revolution?

I honestly wish it could happen like that. Unfortunately, human nature tends towards the selfish, so what you've said will never happen, and any revolution would need to be backed by force and end up the same way as the French and Russian revolutions did: with lots and lots of innocent bloodshed.

 

[Cap]

Ukraine is not "being genocided" (as you put it). It is being invaded by an army which no doubt is committing war crimes, as always happens in reactionary wars which only serve the interests of the rich.

It quite literally is what Putin is doing

How about we abolish the social system which is producing the likes of Putin, AND Biden AND Trump AND Zelensky AND Albanese.....

Oh spare me. The human race has been creating these types since the first group dropped out of the trees.

There is 0 evidence that any other alternative will not produce the same types of people (however its absolutely absurd to suggest Biden and Zelensky are even remotely like Putin).

Edit - i need to add, pushing back against people Putin is what needs to happen. Tolerant societies need to be intolerant to intolerance.

 

[Jamolad]

I did also lol that what will make socialism successful this time is capitalism.

With the massive development of the productive forces and technology that has occurred under capitalism, the capacity for mankind to produce enough to satisfy the social needs of the world's population is not in dispute

Next question. How do you determine who does what?

How do you pick who has to work in the sewers, in offshore oil rigs, fight fires and otherwise work in dangerous and/or unpleasant conditions, for the same reward and same returns as the people you reward with the "cushy" jobs? And how do you keep those people content?

What changes will you make to higher education, and how will you determine who gets it?

 

[Sarcoidevo]

Again, I am telling you that human nature is there were be plenty that will not like socialism, not want socialism, even when everyone's social needs are guaranteed.

Most people will always want more than the 'average', more than enough. To answer your question, these are the people that will fight for the dictatorship even though their social needs are fulfilled because the dictatorship will give them slightly more than 'average', more than enough, for their loyalty.

What will you do with them? Get rid of them?

And by the way, the dictatorship will spring from your beloved and now ruling ICFI. They are the ones that will form the dictatorship, and they will justify that pivot as a "necessity" to prevent being ousted by counter-revolution.

I don't see how going global will be any different to all the times socialist revolution has turned into bloody dictatorial shit-shows the world over. Sure, I get your theory that there will be abundant resources for all if there is global socialism, but you're still up against human nature being majority want more than they need.

Guess in addition to your purge, you also need to re-educate the masses people. Hmmm, this is all sounding very familiar again...

I love a good brainwash unfortunately 100% of the time there comes a point that if I don't conform fully or I step outside a boundary ... I get harshly punished or ostracised

 

[Sarcoidevo]

I did also lol that what will make socialism successful this time is capitalism.

So you need capitalism for socialism to work .... riding on one's coat tails

Sounds like a bunch of parasites

 

[Visions]

PUTIN UPDATES RUSSIA's NUCLEAR POLICY

After high-ranking NATO officials publicly called for Ukraine to use NATO weapons to attack deep inside Russia, Russian President Vladimir Putin formally presented a proposed update to Russia’s nuclear policy that would expand the conditions under which Moscow would use nuclear weapons.

Speaking before a meeting of the Russian Security Council on Wednesday, Putin declared, “aggression against Russia by any non-nuclear-weapon state, but with the participation or support of a nuclear-weapon state, should be considered as a joint attack on the Russian Federation.”

He added, “We reserve the right to use nuclear weapons in the event of aggression against Russia and Belarus.”

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/kremlin-says-changes-russias-nuclear-policy-are-signal-west-2024-09-26/

Holy shit.

Russia is currently under occupation by a non nuclear weapon state being supported by a nuclear weapon state. US tanks are currently rolling inside Russia as we speak and US missiles are destroying Russian equipment inside.

But **** me, Putin hasn’t pushed the button and the world is still alive.

Almost like we have heard this before once or twice or one hundred times…