Europe War in Ukraine - Thread 4 - thread rules updated

[Gethelred]

This is the thread for discussing the War in Ukraine. Should you want to discuss the geopolitics, the history, or an interesting tangent, head over here:

Europe - Backdrop to the war in Ukraine

This is the thread for the geopolitics, history and framework around the Russia-Ukraine conflict. If you want to discuss the events of the war, head over to this thread: https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/war-in-ukraine-thread-4-thread-rules-updated.1376293/page-146

www.bigfooty.com

If a post isn't directly concerning the events of the war or starts to derail the thread, report the post to us and we'll move it over there.

Seeing as multiple people seem to have forgotten, abuse is against the rules of BF. Continuous, page long attacks directed at a single poster in this thread will result in threadbans for a week from this point; doing so again once you have returned will make the bans permanent and will be escalated to infractions.

This thread still has misinformation rules, and occasionally you will be asked to demonstrate a claim you have made by moderation. If you cannot, you will be offered the opportunity to amend the post to reflect that it's opinion, to remove the post, or you will be threadbanned and infracted for sharing misinformation.

Addendum: from this point, use of any variant of the word 'orc' to describe combatants, politicians or russians in general will be deleted and the poster will receive a warning. If the behaviour continues, it will be escalated. Consider this fair warning.

Finally: If I see the word Nazi or Hitler being flung around, there had better have a good faith basis as to how it's applicable to the Russian invasion - as in, video/photographic evidence of POW camps designed to remove another ethnic group - or to the current Ukrainian army. If this does not occur, you will be threadbanned for posting off topic

This is a sensitive area, and I understand that this makes for fairly incensed conversation sometimes. This does not mean the rules do not apply, whether to a poster positing a Pro-Ukraine stance or a poster positing an alternative view.

Behave, people.

 

[Jello_B]

I don't understand why you're pluralising a singular...

There are innocent people being killed on each side.

 

[Mobbs]

Military base in Rostov region destroyed by Ukrainian strike.

 

[Jello_B]

You and others keep forgetting that Putin invaded Ukraine illegally.

No I don’t, Putin has invaded Ukraine illegally. When do we get to talk about how to move to some sort of future sane relationship?

 

[Jello_B]

Here’s a novel idea how about we start with the Russian military and authorities not commiting war crimes, such as deliberate attacks against civilian targets, including on hospitals, medical facilities and on the energy grid; indiscriminate attacks on densely-populated areas; the abduction, torture and murder of civilians; forced deportations; sexual violence; destruction of cultural heritage; and the killing and torture of Ukrainian prisoners of war.

What is your novel idea for handling war criminals. Russian brutality against Ukrainians has been striking.

You realise I don’t want this happening either. And at this stage there is nothing on the table to stop this continuing.

 

[Jello_B]

So basically Russia get everything and everyone died for nothing.

No that’s not a balanced solution that I have suggested.

 

[Mobbs]

There are innocent people being killed on each side.

This is a very serious claim.

I am aware that innocent people are being killed in Ukraine, like these recent images and videos from a residential district in Odessa show:
View attachment IMG_0159.MP4View attachment IMG_0160.MP4View attachment IMG_0161.MP4

As we know, the RF deliberately targets non-military targets in Ukraine eseentially every day, slaughtering civilians in targetted terror attacks as an intentional tactic.

I am always on the alert and receptive for any similar media re attacks on civilians in Russia. But they prove awful hard to find.

 

[Mobbs]

No that’s not a balanced solution that I have suggested.

But you specifically suggested something appealing to Putin (to encourage him to stop attacking), and threw an economic appeasement in the ring as an option.

I hope you can understand that for most, this seems essentially identical to a mafia-style "tribute". "Gimme or I'll kill you." "Is this enough? Will you stop killing us now?"

 

[wannabejack]

You realise I don’t want this happening either. And at this stage there is nothing on the table to stop this continuing.

These war crimes should never have happened or continue to happen let alone be “on the table”.

 

[Jello_B]

These war crimes should never have happened or continue to happen let alone be “on the table”.

And they will keep happening, unless someone does something. Anyways, I come in here very now and then and share these thoughts. I’ll disclose I have family on both sides so I can take it personally.
Here’s a recent article which has some reference data on what Ukrainians want. I genuinely feel for these people.

Growing number of war-weary Ukrainians would reluctantly give up territory to save lives, suggests recent survey

Just half of survey respondents wanted to continue fighting to regain all Ukrainian territory including Crimea.

theconversation.com

 

[Jello_B]

This is a very serious claim.

I am aware that innocent people are being killed in Ukraine, like these recent images and videos from a residential district in Odessa show:
View attachment 2162236View attachment 2162237View attachment 2162238View attachment 2162239View attachment 2162240View attachment 2162241View attachment 2162242View attachment 2162243View attachment 2162244

As we know, the RF deliberately targets non-military targets in Ukraine eseentially every day, slaughtering civilians in targetted terror attacks as an intentional tactic.

I am always on the alert and receptive for any similar media re attacks on civilians in Russia. But they prove awful hard to find.

Mobbs, carn. No need to post this stuff I’ve been around here since the war started and I’d not disagree with any of this. Russia is using terror tactics on Ukrainians to get them to relent. It’s awful. Ukrainians are extremely brave and resilient to be still standing and let alone fighting.
I don’t know if the west and our allies have let them down, as I don’t know what goes on behind those doors.
I want this to stop, and doing what is happening at the moment isn’t working. We either need to bite the bullet and war (the west needs to go in) or negotiate. This middle ground stuff is getting nowhere (except unfortunately it seems that Russia are gaining more and more ground, and killing more and more people), bad actors are keeping Russia operating (and even then I wouldn’t agree with crippling the general Russian population as many of them don’t agree with any of this either).
And I don’t believe that every Russian soldier, or every Russian killed in this war is guilty of the war itself. A lot of these people are collateral damage. Hence my comment.
Anyways I’ll exit. Hopefully Trump (this is where we are at) pulls a rabbit out of hat

 

[Jello_B]

But you specifically suggested something appealing to Putin (to encourage him to stop attacking), and threw an economic appeasement in the ring as an option.

I hope you can understand that for most, this seems essentially identical to a mafia-style "tribute". "Gimme or I'll kill you." "Is this enough? Will you stop killing us now?"

Of course. The chess board needs a reset. There would need to be benefits going back the other way to Ukraine.
It can’t just be keep the land, all you war criminals (including Putin) are free to do what you want. Ukraine wont join NATO etc…
Anyways, as per previous post I’ll exit. Respect and read all your post Mobbs so didn’t want to not reply.

 

[Fire]

No that’s not a balanced solution that I have suggested.

What does Russia have to give up in your proposal?

Ukraine loses its territory AND has its foreign and strategic sovereignty taken from it, leaving it a client state with no way to defend against further agression and therefore at the mercy of any future Russian demands, even if Russia, unrealistically, never invades it again.

It's not balanced, it's iterally the entirety of what Russia wants.

 

[Mobbs]

Mobbs, carn. No need to post this stuff I’ve been around here since the war started and I’d not disagree with any of this. Russia is using terror tactics on Ukrainians to get them to relent. It’s awful. Ukrainians are extremely brave and resilient to be still standing and let alone fighting.
I don’t know if the west and our allies have let them down, as I don’t know what goes on behind those doors.
I want this to stop, and doing what is happening at the moment isn’t working. We either need to bite the bullet and war (the west needs to go in) or negotiate. This middle ground stuff is getting nowhere (except unfortunately it seems that Russia are gaining more and more ground, and killing more and more people), bad actors are keeping Russia operating (and even then I wouldn’t agree with crippling the general Russian population as many of them don’t agree with any of this either).
And I don’t believe that every Russian soldier, or every Russian killed in this war is guilty of the war itself. A lot of these people are collateral damage. Hence my comment.
Anyways I’ll exit. Hopefully Trump (this is where we are at) pulls a rabbit out of hat

My problem with what you wrote is that it seemed entirely that you did disagree with this.

To write that innocent people on both sides are being killed says to me that both sides are to blame, but they're not. Every Ukrainian life taken in this war is Putin's fault. Every Russian life taken in this war is Putin's fault.

Ukraine continues to operate its "I want to live" program, offering protection & escape through surrender. Russia continues to operate its "you all need to die" program, proudly executing POWs, ISIS-style. This isn't symmetrical.

Ukraine struggles to maintain sufficient enlistment to defend itself, deliberating whether to drop its conscription age for months while RF crawls forward. Russia fires on its own troops when they are retreating.

None of this is Ukraine's fault. None of these things could have been avoided if Ukraine had decided from the get-go to not invade.

Large swathes of Russian recruits are reacting to very lucrative salary sweeteners. If I gave you a gun and showed you a puppy and said "$10? $20? $50?" and kept upping the offer until you shot the puppy, THAT'S the russian soldiers who aren't guilty of the war.

Now imagine thousands of guys being handed guns and having puppies pointed out. And suddenly one guy drops down lifeless. This is where we separate - you see a guy dying, but I see a puppy surviving.

This is the "killing" that you claim Ukraine and its supporters are enabling. Every Russian soldier that dies potentially translates to a Ukrainian civilian living. But while Russian soldiers remain living, Ukrainian civilians continue dying.

And if we appease Putin, give him what he wants in order to bring the killing to an end - Ukrainian civlians will soon be the ones who are "not guilty of the war itself" when they are forced by Putin to March on Moldova. And the Moldovans will have to stomach people like you telling them to make a deal to keep Putin happy and stop the killing "on both sides".

 

[Saint]

Trump prides himself on finishing things one way or the other. Being decisive.

He capitulated in Afghanistan and gave the Taliban everything they wanted.

He assassinated an Iranian General in Iraq and Iran did nothing (in the short term) in response.

What he does in Ukraine is very unknown. What he will soon realise, is that just because the US withdraws, he can't force Zelensky to accept anything. It's about half of their military aid, but less than a third of its financial aid. And if Ukraine don't accept a deal and Russia over-runs them after the USA withdraws, Trump will become known as a coward. As long as somebody is willing to tell him that's what's going to happen, he won't be able to make that deal. The EU might also step up and provide more military assistance, as they've been building up to do.

I don't think there's any type of video or evidence Putin would have against Trump which couldn't just be called an AI lie, or not as bad as admitting sexual assault on audio and being done for abusing women, which has already happened. The votes are in. Americans don't care if their President abuses women (going back before Trump, too).

 

[Mobbs]

Trump prides himself on finishing things one way or the other. Being decisive.

He capitulated in Afghanistan and gave the Taliban everything they wanted.

He assassinated an Iranian General in Iraq and Iran did nothing (in the short term) in response.

What he does in Ukraine is very unknown. What he will soon realise, is that just because the US withdraws, he can't force Zelensky to accept anything. It's about half of their military aid, but less than a third of its financial aid. And if Ukraine don't accept a deal and Russia over-runs them after the USA withdraws, Trump will become known as a coward. As long as somebody is willing to tell him that's what's going to happen, he won't be able to make that deal. The EU might also step up and provide more military assistance, as they've been building up to do.

I don't think there's any type of video or evidence Putin would have against Trump which couldn't just be called an AI lie, or not as bad as admitting sexual assault on audio and being done for abusing women, which has already happened. The votes are in. Americans don't care if their President abuses women (going back before Trump, too).

I agree, re Zelensky, and to add to that, I believe Trump can't force Putin either. He can say things which would need to be considered by both ends, but he can't just dictate to them.

 

[Baldur]

And if we appease Putin, give him what he wants in order to bring the killing to an end - Ukrainian civlians will soon be the ones who are "not guilty of the war itself" when they are forced by Putin to March on Moldova. And the Moldovans will have to stomach people like you telling them to make a deal to keep Putin happy and stop the killing "on both sides".

Correct, the occupied provinces including the rebel Donetsk and Luhansk republics have suffered massive depopulation, with just about every able bodied man forced into the Russian army to be used as cannon fodder. Also of course the forced deportation of women and children into Russia as part of the ongoing genocide.

Appeasing murderous dictators to satisfy the moral cowardice of fools only results in much greater bloodshed and suffering.

 

[Baldur]

Of course. The chess board needs a reset. There would need to be benefits going back the other way to Ukraine.
It can’t just be keep the land, all you war criminals (including Putin) are free to do what you want. Ukraine wont join NATO etc…
Anyways, as per previous post I’ll exit. Respect and read all your post Mobbs so didn’t want to not reply.

Putin’s 2022 ‘peace proposal’ was a blueprint for the destruction of Ukraine

New details of talks between Russia and Ukraine during spring 2022 confirm that Putin’s alleged peace proposal was in fact a call for unconditional surrender and a blueprint for the destruction of the Ukrainian state, writes Peter Dickinson.

www.atlanticcouncil.org

"In reality, recently obtained documents confirm that the terms offered by the Kremlin in spring 2022 would have left Ukraine partitioned, disarmed, internationally isolated, and utterly unable to defend itself against further Russian aggression. In other words, Vladimir Putin’s alleged peace proposal was in fact a call for unconditional surrender and a blueprint for the destruction of the Ukrainian state."

I would add that the destruction of the Ukrainian state means the genocide of the Ukrainian people. Said genocide is already occurring in the occupied regions.

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/putin-is-ready-talk-trump-his-ukraine-demands-are-unchanged-kremlin-says-2024-11-08/

"Putin on June 14 set out his terms for an end to the war: Ukraine would have to drop its NATO ambitions and withdraw all of its troops from all of the territory of four regions claimed by Russia."

The evidence at present is that Putin is unwilling to accept anything but complete victory. Note the four regions mentioned are the regions Russia claims to have annexed, being Donetsk, Kherson, Luhansk and Zaporizhzhia oblasts. Russia does not hold all of any of them and nothing of Kherson.

 

[Jello_B]

My problem with what you wrote is that it seemed entirely that you did disagree with this.

To write that innocent people on both sides are being killed says to me that both sides are to blame, but they're not. Every Ukrainian life taken in this war is Putin's fault. Every Russian life taken in this war is Putin's fault.

Ukraine continues to operate its "I want to live" program, offering protection & escape through surrender. Russia continues to operate its "you all need to die" program, proudly executing POWs, ISIS-style. This isn't symmetrical.

Ukraine struggles to maintain sufficient enlistment to defend itself, deliberating whether to drop its conscription age for months while RF crawls forward. Russia fires on its own troops when they are retreating.

None of this is Ukraine's fault. None of these things could have been avoided if Ukraine had decided from the get-go to not invade.

Large swathes of Russian recruits are reacting to very lucrative salary sweeteners. If I gave you a gun and showed you a puppy and said "$10? $20? $50?" and kept upping the offer until you shot the puppy, THAT'S the russian soldiers who aren't guilty of the war.

Now imagine thousands of guys being handed guns and having puppies pointed out. And suddenly one guy drops down lifeless. This is where we separate - you see a guy dying, but I see a puppy surviving.

This is the "killing" that you claim Ukraine and its supporters are enabling. Every Russian soldier that dies potentially translates to a Ukrainian civilian living. But while Russian soldiers remain living, Ukrainian civilians continue dying.

And if we appease Putin, give him what he wants in order to bring the killing to an end - Ukrainian civlians will soon be the ones who are "not guilty of the war itself" when they are forced by Putin to March on Moldova. And the Moldovans will have to stomach people like you telling them to make a deal to keep Putin happy and stop the killing "on both sides".

How is saying there are innocent people on both sides saying that both sides are to blame. It’s like the Israel thread where you have to disclaim every time you post in here that what Hamas did is bad.
Sorry I can’t agree with your analogy about the puppy. And I think you are being naive if you think Ukraine have managed to destroy everything they have done without killing a single person that isn’t a puppy killer.

 

[Jello_B]

Putin’s 2022 ‘peace proposal’ was a blueprint for the destruction of Ukraine

New details of talks between Russia and Ukraine during spring 2022 confirm that Putin’s alleged peace proposal was in fact a call for unconditional surrender and a blueprint for the destruction of the Ukrainian state, writes Peter Dickinson.

www.atlanticcouncil.org

"In reality, recently obtained documents confirm that the terms offered by the Kremlin in spring 2022 would have left Ukraine partitioned, disarmed, internationally isolated, and utterly unable to defend itself against further Russian aggression. In other words, Vladimir Putin’s alleged peace proposal was in fact a call for unconditional surrender and a blueprint for the destruction of the Ukrainian state."

I would add that the destruction of the Ukrainian state means the genocide of the Ukrainian people. Said genocide is already occurring in the occupied regions.

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/putin-is-ready-talk-trump-his-ukraine-demands-are-unchanged-kremlin-says-2024-11-08/

"Putin on June 14 set out his terms for an end to the war: Ukraine would have to drop its NATO ambitions and withdraw all of its troops from all of the territory of four regions claimed by Russia."

The evidence at present is that Putin is unwilling to accept anything but complete victory. Note the four regions mentioned are the regions Russia claims to have annexed, being Donetsk, Kherson, Luhansk and Zaporizhzhia oblasts. Russia does not hold all of any of them and nothing of Kherson.

What in your opinion is the current US / NATO strategy for resolving this conflict?

 

[Zidane98]

Russian central bank raises interest rates to 21%. Further rise likely in Deember:




Putin apologists will claim that Russia is going just great. The reality couldn't be completely different.

 

[Jello_B]

Correct, the occupied provinces including the rebel Donetsk and Luhansk republics have suffered massive depopulation, with just about every able bodied man forced into the Russian army to be used as cannon fodder. Also of course the forced deportation of women and children into Russia as part of the ongoing genocide.

Appeasing murderous dictators to satisfy the moral cowardice of fools only results in much greater bloodshed and suffering.

how is sending just enough weapons to an apparent “ally”, such that an unlawful invading force can gradually take over their land killing everything along the way not moral cowardice?

 

[Baldur]

What in your opinion is the current US / NATO strategy for resolving this conflict?

To the extent there is a strategy, as far I can tell Biden's strategy appears to be give just enough to allow Ukraine to survive but not win, resulting in a forever war. My opinion of this is unprintable.

 

[Zidane98]

What in your opinion is the current US / NATO strategy for resolving this conflict?

Neither party does enough to support Ukraine considering the wider security implications for Europe and the obligations of the US under Budapest agreement to defend Ukraine after convincing it to disarm (something that fascist Russia is now taking advantage of).

 

[Baldur]

how is sending just enough weapons to an apparent “ally”, such that an unlawful invading force can gradually take over their land killing everything along the way not moral cowardice?

It is moral cowardice. What should be done is sending enough to allow Ukraine to win.

 

[Zidane98]

how is sending just enough weapons to an apparent “ally”, such that an unlawful invading force can gradually take over their land killing everything along the way not moral cowardice?

In normal circumstances most states in Russia's position (becoming an international pariah state, economy in ruins,) would have come to the negotiating table to end the conflict / withdrawn. So there is validity in helping Ukraine push back to achieve this position.

Putin's total grasp on power plus his delusions of recreating a new Russian empire are the only things keeping the invasion going for Russia. They withdrew over much less loss in Afghanistan.


Of course if NATO states and the US wished they could defeat Russia in Ukraine by defending Ukrainian territory. That is seen as an escalation though by NATO at the present point in time, hence staying out of the war (while Russia conscripts mercenaries and soldiers officially from North Korea on behalf of Kim Jong).