Welcome Welcome to Hawthorn: James Cousins

[Brant]

He was killing it in the second qtr so much so that the commentators started mentioning him and then he rolled his ankle!! Our midfield was doing quite fine imo. He was our leading ball winner until then.

That’s what’s annoying AF about that game.

But for his ankle injury - which turned out to be ‘hurt’, more than really ‘injured’ in that he came back on* - we probably win that game.




*not suggesting he squibbed it, just that such a stupid occurrence had a massive effect.

 

[Slick]

Absolutely enjoying watching guys like Cousins and Worpel develop before our eyes. Cousins was great this past weekend.

 

[Gralin]

I just don't feel he has as high a ceiling as plenty of others do.

Not everyone has to have a high ceiling to be a best 22 player
They just have to be able to play their role in the team.

It's the same issue with have with depth players, people can't understand why we keep guys in the squad that are only ever going to be there abouts, or why we pick up a mature body in that category instead of a kid.

 

[OnceKicked50]

Not everyone has to have a high ceiling to be a best 22 player
They just have to be able to play their role in the team.

It's the same issue with have with depth players, people can't understand why we keep guys in the squad that are only ever going to be there abouts, or why we pick up a mature body in that category instead of a kid.

I have no issue with anything you have said. And I have no issue with Cousins being on a list. My only point is, if he is a starting mid, it would be difficult for me to see us as true contenders. It's a very important position that requires more than a role player, unless perhaps a tagger.

Anyhow, hopefully I am wrong. And I do respect plenty his willingness to work and make it as a player. It just kind of highlights a concern of mine, that our young talent is below that of other clubs.

Worpel is an elite talent, and Scrimshaw may very well turn out that way. But I feel we are getting excited by Cousins in a way other clubs are getting excited by a Berry or McCluggage, Parfitt, Walsh, Tarranto etc. It's not a knock on him, just a realisation we don't have a lot of elite midfield talent coming through.

 

[beta_condition]

I have no issue with anything you have said. And I have no issue with Cousins being on a list. My only point is, if he is a starting mid, it would be difficult for me to see us as true contenders. It's a very important position that requires more than a role player, unless perhaps a tagger.

Anyhow, hopefully I am wrong. And I do respect plenty his willingness to work and make it as a player. It just kind of highlights a concern of mine, that our young talent is below that of other clubs.

Worpel is an elite talent, and Scrimshaw may very well turn out that way. But I feel we are getting excited by Cousins in a way other clubs are getting excited by a Berry or McCluggage, Parfitt, Walsh, Tarranto etc. It's not a knock on him, just a realisation we don't have a lot of elite midfield talent coming through.

He's in his third season, how many elite midfielders weren't performing even at cousins level at the same age? Answer a lot. Also what has Parfitt done that establish him self from cousins?

 

[eldorado]

Big positive from yesterday. Needs to work on his kicking and decision making. But can find the footy and win clearances. A keeper.

Agree 100% on this. He certainly wasn't supposed to be starting at this stage, but injuries have forced him into the fray.

I'm not quite as delighted as some on what I've seen; there have been obvious limitations (as you would expect with a rookie), but i'm open to see how he progresses.

At the moment, his decision-making and handling go from fair to poor within a game. Adjusting to the pace will take some time, hopefully he can rise to the challenge as he gets more games

 

[OnceKicked50]

He's in his third season, how many elite midfielders weren't performing even at cousins level at the same age? Answer a lot. Also what has Parfitt done that establish him self from cousins?

It's getting repative for me mate. I've previously given my opinion why I don't see his ceiling be that of those I've mentioned.

I'm not here to debate Parfitt, my point remains we are excited by him, a 21 year old rookie, like other clubs are by top 10 mids.

I'm not saying the draft is everything, just that I see his ceiling below the best 21 year old or younger mids.

 

[Brant]

I have no issue with anything you have said. And I have no issue with Cousins being on a list. My only point is, if he is a starting mid, it would be difficult for me to see us as true contenders. It's a very important position that requires more than a role player, unless perhaps a tagger.

Anyhow, hopefully I am wrong. And I do respect plenty his willingness to work and make it as a player. It just kind of highlights a concern of mine, that our young talent is below that of other clubs.

Worpel is an elite talent, and Scrimshaw may very well turn out that way. But I feel we are getting excited by Cousins in a way other clubs are getting excited by a Berry or McCluggage, Parfitt, Walsh, Tarranto etc. It's not a knock on him, just a realisation we don't have a lot of elite midfield talent coming through.

I agree with both you & Gralin.


Role Players (Suckers, Doc, Spangher et al.) allow us to keep TPP under control without negatively impacting performance; however (like you), I’m concerned that we need more from a midfielder.

IN SAYING THAT...

Probably worth checking his performance against other guys taken the same year:

Player..........................Pick...........Games........Ave. Possessions...........Marks.............Tackles........Goals Per Game
Cousins.......................R46...............11.................20.2........................3.0................3.8....................0.8........
Oliver Florent................11................36.................18.2........................4.2................1.8....................0.5........
Andrew McGrath.............1.................45.................21.2.......................3.8.................2.0....................0.8......
Tim Taranto...................2.................41..................27.0.......................2.8................7.5....................1.0......
Hugh McCluggage..........3..................44.................20.2.......................3.0.................3.2....................1.5....
Will Setterfield...............5..................6..................16.2.......................3.0.................2.8....................0.2....
Sam P-Seton.................6..................46.................18.8.......................5.0................4.0....................0.2....

James Cousins, Rookie Pick 46, holds his own or is statistically better than Picks 1, 3, 5, 6 & 11. TARANTO is a BOSS, but Cousins is at least as good, if not better than the rest of them, despite playing a quarter of the games they have.

So...

I think you’re both correct.

OnceKicked50 we’re not winning a flag with COUSINS in the midfield.... YET! But give him the 2x extra years of AFL Footy that the other guys have had & you’d have to think he’ll be better than all of them (except maybe TARANTO).

Sure, he may have physical limitations such as pace etc., but he seems to have ‘craft’ (for lack of a better term) & I reckon he gives us something to work with. He’ll never be JO’M, but he could very well be a Brad Sewell.

https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy...d2=4&type=A&pid1=6425&pid2=6334&fid1=S&fid2=S

 

[OnceKicked50]

I agree with both you & Gralin.


Role Players (Suckers, Doc, Spangher et al.) allow us to keep TPP under control without negatively impacting performance; however (like you), I’m concerned that we need more from a midfielder.

IN SAYING THAT...

Probably worth checking his performance against other guys taken the same year:

Player..........................Pick...........Games........Ave. Possessions...........Marks.............Tackles........Goals Per Game
Cousins.......................R46...............11.................20.2........................3.0................3.8....................0.8........
Oliver Florent................11................36.................18.2........................4.2................1.8....................0.5........
Andrew McGrath.............1.................45.................21.2.......................3.8.................2.0....................0.8......
Tim Taranto...................2.................41..................27.0.......................2.8................7.5....................1.0......
Hugh McCluggage..........3..................44.................20.2.......................3.0.................3.2....................1.5....
Will Setterfield...............5..................6..................16.2.......................3.0.................2.8....................0.2....
Sam P-Seton.................6..................46.................18.8.......................5.0................4.0....................0.2....

James Cousins, Rookie Pick 46, holds his own or is statistically better than Picks 1, 3, 5, 6 & 11. TARANTO is a BOSS, but Cousins is at least as good, if not better than the rest of them, despite playing a quarter of the games they have.

So...

I think you’re both correct.

OnceKicked50 we’re not winning a flag with COUSINS in the midfield.... YET! But give him the 2x extra years of AFL Footy that the other guys have had & you’d have to think he’ll be better than all of them (except maybe TARANTO).

Sure, he may have physical limitations such as pace etc., but he seems to have ‘craft’ (for lack of a better term) & I reckon he gives us something to work with. He’ll never be JO’M, but he could very well be a Brad Sewell.

https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy...d2=4&type=A&pid1=6425&pid2=6334&fid1=S&fid2=S

That's a really measured response.

But I'm still not sure if in two years he will be in our best 22, and I feel his numbers might be a product of playing large midfield minutes with no Mitchell, and only O'Meara as a senior player to divert to. Ultimately someone has to get the ball. Most of the other blokes named have been forced into roles outside the midfield until this year. McGrath still is, which is another conversation.

Also, I initially posted because I felt he just hacks the ball forward and his decision making hasn't been great. Stats don't really show this. Like they don't do justice to how classy McCluggage is. In my opinion the most talented young mid in the game.

The reason I mentioned Cousins not being in our best 22 is because he can't really play another position, like a Florent or a McGrath. When fully fit, we have a starting group of Mitchell, O'Meara and Worpel. Then we add Shiels and perhaps another free-agent. Next year we might even see Wingard spend time through there. I'd also have Howe ahead of Cousins long term (Howe can play a variety of roles).

The manner in which he plays, he is really going to be competing with Mitchell, Shiels and Howe long term.

 

[Brant]

That's a really measured response.

But I'm still not sure if in two years he will be in our best 22, and I feel his numbers might be a product of playing large midfield minutes with no Mitchell, and only O'Meara as a senior player to divert to. Ultimately someone has to get the ball. Most of the other blokes named have been forced into roles outside the midfield until this year. McGrath still is, which is another conversation.

Also, I initially posted because I felt he just hacks the ball forward and his decision making hasn't been great. Stats don't really show this. Like they don't do justice to how classy McCluggage is. In my opinion the most talented young mid in the game.

The reason I mentioned Cousins not being in our best 22 is because he can't really play another position, like a Florent or a McGrath. When fully fit, we have a starting group of Mitchell, O'Meara and Worpel. Then we add Shiels and perhaps another free-agent. Next year we might even see Wingard spend time through there. I'd also have Howe ahead of Cousins long term (Howe can play a variety of roles).

The manner in which he plays, he is really going to be competing with Mitchell, Shiels and Howe long term.

Again, I agree with you OnceKicked50 , but I have a slightly different spin.

Firstly, I agree that COUSINS is getting his numbers primarily based on opportunity & I agree that he lacks the 2nd & 3rd strings to the bow; however, I’ll back in his demonstrated ability to play a blanketing role on an oppo mid. I forget who it was, but he quieted a big name or 2 last year in his 4-5th game. Sure, some higher picks have him covered for tricks & smooth moves, but COUSINS has the majority of them covered for grunt.

For every time we discount COUSINS’ achievements due to opportunity, we should discount the achievements of these higher picks for the support they have & the fact that oppo players barely know their names, let alone try to cover/tag them.

Again, I liken him to Brad Sewell in this regard. Can lock down; can get it ‘in & under’’; doesn’t so much love the disposal efficiency stat, but doesn’t mind a goal (better than Sewell by numbers).

He’s 21(ish), 186cm & has a frame for another 5kg.

SO...

Forget his developing a 2nd & 3rd string to his bow & allow his his facilitating guys like JO’M to execute theirs. Most of us marvel at Cripps, but many also comment that he’ll be broken by age 27. I’d be happy for COUSINS to eke out a 10yr, 150 game career @ $300k (as the 22nd guy selected every week, doing a bunch of the heavy lifting throughout the H&A Season & ensuring that Tom Mitchell is primed for Finals, whilst allowing Cogs to rest in a FP & JO’M to rest off HBF (like Burgoyne has for 9yrs).

In line with your original message, I agree that (IMO) he doesn’t have the ceiling that other mids have. Neither did Hale as a FF/Ruck; nor Schoey as a CHF; nor Spanker as a CHB or wherever he played. What COUSINS needs to do is get a little better at what he currently does, so as to allow others to focus on what else they can do.

 

[Collins-Langford-Ayres]

I have no issue with anything you have said. And I have no issue with Cousins being on a list. My only point is, if he is a starting mid, it would be difficult for me to see us as true contenders. It's a very important position that requires more than a role player, unless perhaps a tagger.

Anyhow, hopefully I am wrong. And I do respect plenty his willingness to work and make it as a player. It just kind of highlights a concern of mine, that our young talent is below that of other clubs.

Worpel is an elite talent, and Scrimshaw may very well turn out that way. But I feel we are getting excited by Cousins in a way other clubs are getting excited by a Berry or McCluggage, Parfitt, Walsh, Tarranto etc. It's not a knock on him, just a realisation we don't have a lot of elite midfield talent coming through.

It's what happens when you don't have top 10 - 15 picks.

We've been very lucky with guys like Sicily, Hardwick, Morrison, Worps, etc, but in finishing top 8 continuously and trading picks for guys like Wings and O'Meara, we've given away our chance to increase the likelihood of getting a kid with a high ceiling...

 

[TylerDurden]

I see it differently. Their draft pick is irrelevant now. The JOR experiment confirmed that for me. It’s how they integrate into league footy.

Yep Cuz will be an inside mid. Cool. We need that.

The knock on the kicking and decision making is real. But can improve with time on the ground. And confidence. He can also hit the scoreboard.

There’s a higher ceiling here than ppl think. Again, forget the pick and watch what he’s currently doing. Recruiters go off what they’ve seen and how they think a player will develop. We’re watching the kid develop and have the benefit of hindsight, which they don’t have.

He’s playing like a top 20 pick now, not a rookie. That’s all that matters.

 

[KermitJagger]

I agree with both you & Gralin.


Role Players (Suckers, Doc, Spangher et al.) allow us to keep TPP under control without negatively impacting performance; however (like you), I’m concerned that we need more from a midfielder.

IN SAYING THAT...

Probably worth checking his performance against other guys taken the same year:

Player..........................Pick...........Games........Ave. Possessions...........Marks.............Tackles........Goals Per Game
Cousins.......................R46...............11.................20.2........................3.0................3.8....................0.8........
Oliver Florent................11................36.................18.2........................4.2................1.8....................0.5........
Andrew McGrath.............1.................45.................21.2.......................3.8.................2.0....................0.8......
Tim Taranto...................2.................41..................27.0.......................2.8................7.5....................1.0......
Hugh McCluggage..........3..................44.................20.2.......................3.0.................3.2....................1.5....
Will Setterfield...............5..................6..................16.2.......................3.0.................2.8....................0.2....
Sam P-Seton.................6..................46.................18.8.......................5.0................4.0....................0.2....

James Cousins, Rookie Pick 46, holds his own or is statistically better than Picks 1, 3, 5, 6 & 11. TARANTO is a BOSS, but Cousins is at least as good, if not better than the rest of them, despite playing a quarter of the games they have.

So...

I think you’re both correct.

OnceKicked50 we’re not winning a flag with COUSINS in the midfield.... YET! But give him the 2x extra years of AFL Footy that the other guys have had & you’d have to think he’ll be better than all of them (except maybe TARANTO).

Sure, he may have physical limitations such as pace etc., but he seems to have ‘craft’ (for lack of a better term) & I reckon he gives us something to work with. He’ll never be JO’M, but he could very well be a Brad Sewell.

https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy...d2=4&type=A&pid1=6425&pid2=6334&fid1=S&fid2=S

I hate this argument, but there is definitely a qualitative difference when looking at McCluggage and Cousins play.

McCluggage is a player I would absolutely love to have at the Hawks. Only has 20 disposals but he's so composed and skillful, he picks out kicks and does some unreal things on the footy field.

Cousins is a great competitor but his decision making isn't anywhere near the same level.

I don't think Setterfield, Florent or McGrath will ever be superstars though.

 

[KermitJagger]

It's what happens when you don't have top 10 - 15 picks.

We've been very lucky with guys like Sicily, Hardwick, Morrison, Worps, etc, but in finishing top 8 continuously and trading picks for guys like Wings and O'Meara, we've given away our chance to increase the likelihood of getting a kid with a high ceiling...

Really?

I reckon I've crunched the draft numbers in about 10 threads, but the general gist when you look into the draft is that you still have an average chance of getting a high ceiling player in the draft even with a top 10 pick ('Super Drafts' excluded obviously). You're more likely to get a good player that grinds out a career that isn't really noteworthy.

Take 2003 for example:

1 Adam Cooney
2 Andrew Walker
3 Colin Sylvia
4 Farren Ray
5 Brock McLean
6 Kepler Bradley
7 Kane Tenace
8 Raphael Clarke
9 David Trotter
10 Ryley Dunn

 

[Milkshaker]

I see it differently. Their draft pick is irrelevant now. The JOR experiment confirmed that for me. It’s how they integrate into league footy.

Yep Cuz will be an inside mid. Cool. We need that.

The knock on the kicking and decision making is real. But can improve with time on the ground. And confidence. He can also hit the scoreboard.

There’s a higher ceiling here than ppl think. Again, forget the pick and watch what he’s currently doing. Recruiters go off what they’ve seen and how they think a player will develop. We’re watching the kid develop and have the benefit of hindsight, which they don’t have.

He’s playing like a top 20 pick now, not a rookie. That’s all that matters.

Re bolded bit. He handballed of to Smith running past (North game?) and Smith muffed it. I was screaming take the kick son which surprised me in retrospect. He seems very composed in front of goal and can win the footy. A lot to like.

 

[Hawks1976]

Yeah nah

Agree now

 

[beta_condition]

Really?

I reckon I've crunched the draft numbers in about 10 threads, but the general gist when you look into the draft is that you still have an average chance of getting a high ceiling player in the draft even with a top 10 pick ('Super Drafts' excluded obviously). You're more likely to get a good player that grinds out a career that isn't really noteworthy.

Take 2003 for example:

1 Adam Cooney
2 Andrew Walker
3 Colin Sylvia
4 Farren Ray
5 Brock McLean
6 Kepler Bradley
7 Kane Tenace
8 Raphael Clarke
9 David Trotter
10 Ryley Dunn

2003 really isn't a good exmaple it's so far from the norm.

 

[Kenyan]

Absolutely enjoying watching guys like Cousins and Worpel develop before our eyes. Cousins was great this past weekend.

We must not underestimate the influence Sam Mitchell will have on both lads going forward. Sam greatest asset was his disposal on both sides of his body and I'm sure we will see steady improvement, in this respect, from both lads.

 

[HolyRioli]

2003 really isn't a good exmaple it's so far from the norm.

2002 draft then

1. Brendan Goddard
2. Daniel Wells
3. Jared Brennan
4. Tim Walsh
5. Jarrad McVeigh
6. Steven Salopek
7. Andrew Mackie
8. Luke Brennan
9. Hamish McIntosh
10. Jason Laycock

 

[The Chad and I]

Not all drafts are equal - hasn't that become obvious over the years?
Some drafts have a top 10 worthy of being the no.1 pick in most other years.

The Top5 would be about 50:50 good to great.
6-10 picks in most years would be about 90:10.

Compare those results to what a pick 6-10 would get you in a trade for an established player.
I'd trade it most years.

Graham Wright and Mark Mckenzie have been astute dealers for us over "a long, long period of time".
Not only have they called the drafts correctly for quality, they've traded in players who have worked out 8/10 trades.
In the football industry that is genius.

 

[StillAtLarge]

Re bolded bit. He handballed of to Smith running past (North game?) and Smith muffed it. I was screaming take the kick son which surprised me in retrospect. He seems very composed in front of goal and can win the footy. A lot to like.

That was the bulldogs game. If a senior player demands the footy you're probably going to give it so that missed opportunity is solely on Smith. The kid is a clutch set shot so I'd be surprised if the message after that game was anything other than "back yourself inside 50 every time if the angle is favourable".

 

[The Chad and I]

Solid citizen.
Good enough kick, excellent in close and great endeavour.
Bit slow and that won't change.

He needs to compensate by developing his endurance, similar to how Jordan Lewis slimmed down to become more versatile.
Not nearly as clever as Lewis, but he has a similar competitive spirit.

I suspect Sydney will come knocking again and this time we will agree to a trade for a late second round pick.

 

[MrPremiership]

Solid citizen.
Good enough kick, excellent in close and great endeavour.
Bit slow and that won't change.

He needs to compensate by developing his endurance, similar to how Jordan Lewis slimmed down to become more versatile.
Not nearly as clever as Lewis, but he has a similar competitive spirit.

I suspect Sydney will come knocking again and this time we will agree to a trade for a late second round pick.

Why would Cousins go?

 

[Collins-Langford-Ayres]

Really?

I reckon I've crunched the draft numbers in about 10 threads, but the general gist when you look into the draft is that you still have an average chance of getting a high ceiling player in the draft even with a top 10 pick ('Super Drafts' excluded obviously). You're more likely to get a good player that grinds out a career that isn't really noteworthy.

Take 2003 for example:

1 Adam Cooney
2 Andrew Walker
3 Colin Sylvia
4 Farren Ray
5 Brock McLean
6 Kepler Bradley
7 Kane Tenace
8 Raphael Clarke
9 David Trotter
10 Ryley Dunn

Top picks are still a bit hit and miss, but surely you agree that you are more likely to get a hit in 1 - 10, than you are 11 - 20, than 21 - 30, etc?

Taking 2003 as your example:

11 Beau Waters - 120 games - Compared to Cooney 250 games
12 Ryan Murphy - 48 games - Compared to Walker 202 games
13 Brent Stanton - 255 games - Compared to Sylvia 163 games
14 Fergus Watts - 6 games - Compared to Ray 209 games
15 Troy Chaplin - 215 games - Compared to McLean 157 games
16 Josh Willoughby - 0 games - Compared to Bradley 117 games
17 Billy Morrison - 0 games - Compared to Tenace 54 games
18 Llane Spaandeman - 3 games - Compared to Clarke 85 games
19 David Mundy - 299 games - Compared to Trotter 7 games
20 Sam Butler - 166 games - Compared to Dunn 8 games

Think the top 10s have it...

 

[The Chad and I]

Why would Cousins go?

Because he will struggle to get a game for us next season once Mitchell returns and we recruit another ready-made midfielder.
The coaches will tell him as much in his end of year review.

We will get some value and he will play more often on a ground much more suited to his abilities.