West Coast or Adelaide - Who is better placed?

[ok.crows]

We also lost 5 games by under 2 goals and yet would have played finals if Port had beat Carlton in the last round (admittedly this arises from the Bombers suspension ).

Better perhaps to say that the Crows would have played finals but for one right-angle bounce of the ball.

As for losing 5 games by less than two goals ... it seems to have been missed in this thread that the 2012/2013 preseason for the Crows stressed bulk and strength above all else, and as a consequence the Crows were indeed strong but also slow (they had to chase a lot) and therefore did not run out games well at all.

Different emphasis entirely for the 2013/2014 preseason, where the Crows were running the equivalent of a marathon every nine days or so. The players are lighter and there has been more emphasis on skills.

IMO this training factor alone will have a bigger impact than any new players coming in to the side.

 

[Forward Press]

Interestingly enough both Sloane and Douglas polled better than Dangerfield in Adelaide's best and fairest for 2013.

http://www.afc.com.au/news/2013-09-06/sloane-crowned-2013-club-champion

Crouch finished 10th.

IMO these results speak to the strength of Adelaide's midfield.

It does indeed. I prefer Dangerfield though for his explosiveness and goal-kicking, it's something our midfield sorely needs right now. I think you guys are quietly building up a formidable outfit and as long as the forwards and backs hold together and develop well, a premiership could be on the horizon sooner rather than later.

 

[Jack_the_Ninja]

Rory was the Crows best and fairest player in 2013.

http://www.afc.com.au/news/2013-09-06/sloane-crowned-2013-club-champion

What do you mean by will become?

Didn't know that ! Rory is already the man then so you won't mind us poaching Danger then ?

 

[Mr_Moogle]

Didn't know that ! Rory is already the man then so you won't mind us poaching Danger then ?

If Danger leaves he'll likely go back to Victoria. Only way I could see the Eagles getting him would be on a ridiculous-Franklin like deal. Surely they aren't that stupid.

 

[Jack_the_Ninja]

If Danger leaves he'll likely go back to Victoria. Only way I could see the Eagles getting him would be on a ridiculous-Franklin like deal. Surely they aren't that stupid.

Yeah we simply don't ever get players of his ilk coming west on a trade. Still I hold out hope we can snag a few of the good WA boys who got poached over the last 3-4 season to GC and GWS.

 

[Lenny316]

West Coast dont want Dangerfield. A fit Naitanui will do. No team better placed then the Eagles. You all underestimate how bad a coach Worsfold was. But i totally agree about the crows midfield. Need more then 1 capable ruckman. Jacobs looked burnt out last year.

 

[MrKK]

Personally this is an interesting question as these are the 2 sides I watch most closely. In 2014 I think both will be in that logjam of teams fighting for a spot in the 8, with the Crows more likely to make it than West Coast. However I think we're better placed going forward as the home ground advantage at Subi shouldn't be underestimated and we've had a full complement of draft picks every season - if the Crows don't pinch a flag in the next 1-3 years (and I don't think they will) then the Tippett sanctions are going to start biting.

 

[ok.crows]

Need more then 1 capable ruckman. Jacobs looked burnt out last year.

Jacobs was a few kilos heavier last year.

http://www.afc.com.au/news/2014-02-20/slim-sauce-set-for-2014

BALANCE is the key word for Adelaide ruckman Sam Jacobs, who's eagerly awaiting the opportunity to see how his lighter frame responds to four quarters of football.
Jacobs was unlucky to be overlooked for All Australian honours in 2012, but wasn't able to live up to that form last year.
This pre-season he has lost 3-4kg as a consequence of the club's shift in focus from strength to endurance.
The 25-year-old hoped a slimmer body would enable him to cover the ground easier just as long as it didn't mean other ruckmen would be able to outmuscle him.
"I've lightened up a bit, I'm probably three or four kilos lighter, obviously the game's getting quicker and quicker now so you sort of have to have that capacity to run," Jacobs said.
"Last year I was doing four, five weights sessions a week, this year it's gone back to two or three - we're doing a lot more running this year.

 

[ok.crows]

Personally this is an interesting question as these are the 2 sides I watch most closely. In 2014 I think both will be in that logjam of teams fighting for a spot in the 8, with the Crows more likely to make it than West Coast. However I think we're better placed going forward as the home ground advantage at Subi shouldn't be underestimated and we've had a full complement of draft picks every season - if the Crows don't pinch a flag in the next 1-3 years (and I don't think they will) then the Tippett sanctions are going to start biting.

The Tippett sanctions are finished now. Last year the Crows had four rising star nominees, and the year before Talia actually won the rising star award. This year there is every chance that Grigg and maybe M Crouch might pick up a rising star nomination.

How many rising star nominations from the Eagles young players last year?

 

[Balance]

I think it will come down to who will manage fitness and preventing injuries better. I've got a feeling that will be the Eagles, his Hawthorn background will help.

 

[master bate]

Rutten, Pods (even just in a bridging role), Glass and Cox are obviously still vital as long as they keep their form for at least this year. Looking long term at the spine:

No 1 key forward: Josh Kennedy v Taylor Walker
No 2 key forward: Jack Darling v Tom Lynch/Johnstone/Otten
Ruck: Naitanui v Jacobs
2nd ruck/forward: Sinclair/Lycett v Jenkins/McKernan
CHB: Eric McKenzie v Daniel Talia
FB: Mitch Brown v Hartigan/Thompson

Overall I don't think there's much gap between those groups. Nic Nat should be the premier ruckman but Walker might put a huge gap between himself and any other forward even as good as Kennedy is. Both got a good key defender but need improvement in the second spot once Rutten and Glass go.

I think the crows have the advantage in both midfield depth and top line talent:
Adelaide: Dangerfield, Sloane, Douglas, Van Berlo, B. Crouch, Thompson, Wright, Brodie Smith, Grigg, Kerridge, Mackay, Lyons, M. Crouch
West Coast: Masten, Selwood, Shuey, Priddis, Wellingham, Gaff, Hutchings, Rosa, Cripps, Sheed

Just looking at those lists to me West Coast don't have a lot of depth in young midfielders. That have a nice core around the right age in Masten, Selwood, Shuey, Wellingham, Gaff that means they should be competitive, plus Sheed looks a plug and play guy. But I'm not sure who's really stepping up to replace Kerr and Embley. Adelaide on the other hand have already blooded the likes of Grigg, Kerridge and Lyons and so the process of those guys going to the next level has started.

More than anything though Adelaide probably get their advantage in Dangerfield being one of the true elites of the game without doubt. Where as West Coast have Masten and Shuey both threatening but still a long way from Dangerfield level. The other ominous sign is Brad Crouch could join Dangerfield.

 

[Bailey01]

Good to see even though we don't have a single digit draft pick on our list we still have a healthy list and good developing talent.

 

[Forward Press]

The Tippett sanctions are finished now. Last year the Crows had four rising star nominees, and the year before Talia actually won the rising star award. This year there is every chance that Grigg and maybe M Crouch might pick up a rising star nomination.

How many rising star nominations from the Eagles young players last year?

The ones like Darling, Gaff, Shuey et al were all nominated before and no longer met requirements last year. The eligible ones were sparse - for example, Hutchings was ineligible as a mature age and Colledge didn't play. Our draft picks for 2012 were fairly low because we gave up a 1st rounder for Wellingham.

 

[Rory Walkerfield]

The ones like Darling, Gaff, Shuey et al were all nominated before and no longer met requirements last year. The eligible ones were sparse - for example, Hutchings was ineligible as a mature age and Colledge didn't play. Our draft picks for 2012 were fairly low because we gave up a 1st rounder for Wellingham.

I think the original poster on this subject was spot on, whilst Adelaide may have had a great run of rising star nominations in the past two years, and may have a few more this year, matt crouch is the only drafted talent during the Tippett sanctions. Fortunately we have added betts in this timeframe so whilst not young, we have been able to introduce new talent to the list.

The poster was likely suggesting adelaide probably won't have any more rising star nominees after this year for a number of years meaning the next wave of young talent won't come through and on this point I think they are correct.

It will probably force adelaide to be drafting match ready players next year and the year after (probably midfield types which we already have enough of) when we really need to be drafting big bodies that will take time to develop. I think adelaide will be chasing big body free agents for many years to come because the Tippett sanctions mean we can't afford to be trying to develop these.

 

[ok.crows]

The ones like Darling, Gaff, Shuey et al were all nominated before and no longer met requirements last year. The eligible ones were sparse - for example, Hutchings was ineligible as a mature age and Colledge didn't play. Our draft picks for 2012 were fairly low because we gave up a 1st rounder for Wellingham.

Fair enough ... please understand that I am not having a go at West Coast (since Adelaide too have had plenty of years in the past without a single nominee for the rising star), I am just raising a counterpoint to the poster to which I was responding ...

if the Crows don't pinch a flag in the next 1-3 years (and I don't think they will) then the Tippett sanctions are going to start biting.

My point is that the Crows right now are actually very well served with rising talent, better served it would appear than West Coast, despite the loss of four draft picks for the Tippett sanctions (handed down for the apparently terrible crime of misreporting one players full salary ... oh well it is all finished with now anyway).

 

[ep2018]

Adelaide have the runs on the board... they finished 2nd two years ago and were a whisker away from a grand final, which would have been against a team they have a great record against. Us? We made 4th and a prelim one year, thanks to Carlton falling over towards the latter part of 2011. Got flogged by Geelong in a prelim, also.

We won't make finals this year, even if we do it'll be seventh or eighth with a first week exit. Adelaide for mine. They could finish 4th and I wouldn't be surprised at all. In the future though, for both teams? Too early to tell.

 

[Forward Press]

Fair enough ... please understand that I am not having a go at West Coast (since Adelaide too have had plenty of years in the past without a single nominee for the rising star), I am just raising a counterpoint to the poster to which I was responding ...



My point is that the Crows right now are actually very well served with rising talent, better served it would appear than West Coast, despite the loss of four draft picks for the Tippett sanctions (handed down for the apparently terrible crime of misreporting one players full salary ... oh well it is all finished with now anyway).

Yep, spot on. It doesn't matter if you missed out on Tippett sanction picks if the rest of the squad and the youngsters are all lined up. Like I've said before in this thread, I rate Adelaide and like how they're building up the list. Free agency helps to fill any gaps that appear (like what you did with Betts).

 

[ok.crows]

I think the original poster on this subject was spot on, whilst Adelaide may have had a great run of rising star nominations in the past two years, and may have a few more this year, matt crouch is the only drafted talent during the Tippett sanctions. Fortunately we have added betts in this timeframe so whilst not young, we have been able to introduce new talent to the list.

In 2012 Adelaide drafted Sam Siggins at pick 62 and Rory Atkins at pick 81. In the 2012 rookie draft Adelaide picked Kyle Hartigan with pick 14, Jack Osborn with pick 46 and Tim Kalosen with pick 42.

In 2013 Adelaide drafted Matt Crouch (as you say) at pick 23 and Riley Knight at pick 46, and they also promoted rookies Kyle Hartigan via pick 76 and Rory Laird via pick 86. In the 2013 rookie draft Adelaide picked Charlie Cameron with pick 7, James Battersby with pick 24, Jake Kelly with pick 40 and Alex Spina with pick 52.

The poster was likely suggesting adelaide probably won't have any more rising star nominees after this year for a number of years meaning the next wave of young talent won't come through and on this point I think they are correct.

It will probably force adelaide to be drafting match ready players next year and the year after (probably midfield types which we already have enough of) when we really need to be drafting big bodies that will take time to develop. I think adelaide will be chasing big body free agents for many years to come because the Tippett sanctions mean we can't afford to be trying to develop these.

I have a different view. IMO in the years 2012 and 2013 Adelaide have picked up a reasonable share of the available talent via draft and trade, despite relinquishing four draft picks in the first two rounds which were replaced by picks in later rounds. Despite the enormous hype surrounding low draft picks each year, by no means are all good football players for a club necessarily drafted in the first two rounds of the national draft. To imagine it is so is ludicrous.

 

[simmo97]

A tie. Both teams are well off the pace and have obvious structural weaknesses. Pods and betts are not worth half a Walker, who may manage half a year at half pace, the defence is suspect, and jacobs has been underwhelming. Nice midfield though!

Out west the defence is solid, and a fully fit attack dangerous. Ruck strength is top notch, but the midfield blows dog. Plus a new coach rarely bears fruit in season one.

Sorry Crows and Eagles fans, this just aint your year!

I think your under-rating our defence which conceded the 7th least points in 2013 and was the best performing area of the ground
we have players like Talia, Smith, Laird and Brown who will be around for the next 8-9years
Hartigan has shown enough to replace Rutten when he retires at full back whether he will be as good is to be seen
then we have got Otten who is 24 who has shown the ability to play as a 3 tall and provide some run.

then you add Henderson and Reilly.

 

[santa claws]

just my opinion on best 25 or so from both sides if fit .positions and interchange can change . supporters from both sides obviously would have a better idea.

b/ waters - brown - glass
f/ betts - walker - jenkins

hb schofield - mackenzie - hurn.
hf/ lynch - podsiadally - porplysia

c/ shuey - priddis - gaff
c/douglas - thompson - dangerfield

hf/ yeo - mcgovern - darling
hb/ reilly - talia - henderson

f/ cox - kennedy - lecras
b/ otten - rutten - smith

r/ naitnui - wellingham - selwood
r/ jacobs - crouch - sloane

int/ masten - rosa- mcginnity - sheed - hutchings - ellis - butler.
int/ grigg - kerridge - vanberlo - brown - crouch - shaw - laird - mckay.

i think boith sides structurally look very strong.

 

[Golumless]

West Coast dont want Dangerfield. A fit Naitanui will do. No team better placed then the Eagles. You all underestimate how bad a coach Worsfold was. But i totally agree about the crows midfield. Need more then 1 capable ruckman. Jacobs looked burnt out last year.

As much as i do totally respect your post and your optimism, there isn't a side in the AFL that wouldn't want Dangerfield. I mean, he is in a different class then most players.

I do agree however, that Jacobs was burnt out and another quality ruckman (Whether Jenkins or traded) would be very beneficial to our side.

 

[ok.crows]

just my opinion on best 25 or so from both sides if fit .

At this time for the Crows Walker, Van Berlo and Henderson are injured and none will play for at least the first few rounds. You left out Wright who would be first 18 at this stage, and Petrenko who would probably be in the first 22 but on the bench. McKernan showed a bit at the last outing and might put pressure on Jenkins. McKay is probably in good enough form right now to start on the field, and if not he would be first-named on the bench. Shaw is questionable because of his somewhat wayward kicking, Hartigan would be picked ahead of him.

 

[santa claws]

At this time for the Crows Walker, Van Berlo and Henderson are injured and none will play for at least the first few rounds. You left out Wright who would be first 18 at this stage, and Petrenko who would probably be in the first 22 but on the bench. McKernan showed a bit at the last outing and might put pressure on Jenkins. McKay is probably in good enough form right now to start on the field, and if not he would be first-named on the bench. Shaw is questionable because of his somewhat wayward kicking, Hartigan would be picked ahead of him.

thats all good as i said you guys who support the side would probably have a better idea.

not too far off for a bloke who doesnt see a hell of a lot of you.

i agree Wright would probably start.
i disagree on petrenko im sorry but i think hes just too inconsistent and prefer porplysia as a small forward.

jenkins going by his 2013 looks to be a pretty decent player agree mckernan an he are in a battle but prefer jenkins.
mckay i did name on an extended bench a few of em named on the bench could well start games.

shaw well i thought he had a great 2012 and seeing he struggled with soft tissue issues and never really got going for most of 2013 i based his inclusion on 2012. ive never ever picked up on shaws kicking ive always thought him a decent kick i will pay more attention in the future.

 

[ok.crows]

thats all good as i said you guys who support the side would probably have a better idea.

not too far off for a bloke who doesnt see a hell of a lot of you.

Not too far off indeed. I was simply offering my thoughts.

i agree Wright would probably start.
i disagree on petrenko im sorry but i think hes just too inconsistent and prefer porplysia as a small forward.

Definitely Porplysia ahead of Petrenko ... but Petrenko is still considered by the club to be in the best 25. My point was that both he and Hartigan would be ahead of Shaw at this time, and you had picked Shaw but neither Petrenko nor Hartigan. Given that there are three out (Walker, Van Berlo and Henderson) right now, this means you are probably going to see Petrenko and Hartigan but not Shaw in the first 22 for round 1.

jenkins going by his 2013 looks to be a pretty decent player agree mckernan an he are in a battle but prefer jenkins.

Indeed Jenkins is probably a better option, but my point was that in the most recent showings McKernan has actually (surprisingly) done better of the two.

mckay i did name on an extended bench a few of em named on the bench could well start games.

Agreed entirely.

shaw well i thought he had a great 2012 and seeing he struggled with soft tissue issues and never really got going for most of 2013 i based his inclusion on 2012. ive never ever picked up on shaws kicking ive always thought him a decent kick i will pay more attention in the future.

Shaw has many good attributes, but his faults are: (1) he never seems to be able to get on the park, and (2) he sometimes has more clangers than a set of church bells.

 

[Rory Walkerfield]

In 2012 Adelaide drafted Sam Siggins at pick 62 and Rory Atkins at pick 81. In the 2012 rookie draft Adelaide picked Kyle Hartigan with pick 14, Jack Osborn with pick 46 and Tim Kalosen with pick 42.

In 2013 Adelaide drafted Matt Crouch (as you say) at pick 23 and Riley Knight at pick 46, and they also promoted rookies Kyle Hartigan via pick 76 and Rory Laird via pick 86. In the 2013 rookie draft Adelaide picked Charlie Cameron with pick 7, James Battersby with pick 24, Jake Kelly with pick 40 and Alex Spina with pick 52.



I have a different view. IMO in the years 2012 and 2013 Adelaide have picked up a reasonable share of the available talent via draft and trade, despite relinquishing four draft picks in the first two rounds which were replaced by picks in later rounds. Despite the enormous hype surrounding low draft picks each year, by no means are all good football players for a club necessarily drafted in the first two rounds of the national draft. To imagine it is so is ludicrous.

I know who is on Adelaide's list. The key word in my post was talent. I will need to see some pretty compelling form from a pick 62 or 81 before I'd talk them up as potential rising star nominees despite what I read on the Adelaide board. Charlie Cameron is the only one out of the rest from what I've seen who looks likely.