What They're Saying - The Bulldogs Media Thread - Part 2

[Bemoreboyddog]

Personally, I see versatility as our biggest weakness. We’re too versatile.

I’d rather a guy that can give me an 8/10 game in one spot than a guy that can give me a 5 or 6/10 in two spots.

That and the group looks stale and uninterested.

 

[TiAn_]

I’d rather a guy that can give me an 8/10 game in one spot than a guy that can give me a 5 or 6/10 in two spots.

Yeah I tend to agree with this. I think it has undermined Boyd and others.

 

[Dogs_r_barking]

they didnt foresee the decline of so many players. that in itself is another discussion related to coaching

however im still pissed off we didnt use our draft picks to bring in quality established players. we knew the list was young and we still went the drafting young players path...

the mindset of club

We don’t seem to be able to attract the big players though, I mean Hurley changed his mind at the 11th hour, Lever stated he wouldn’t come to the Dogs, same with some of the other high profile players.

What have we got to attract these players, Bevo, inner city Melbourne living. Downside, Etihad as our home ground, more travel compared to your Collingwood, Essendon, clubs, lack of success compared to Geelong, Hawthorn, Swans, lack of lifestyle compared to Geelong. We have to have some sustained success to turn this around, but we need mature star players to do this, rinse and repeat.

 

[Libba39]

Personally, I see versatility as our biggest weakness. We’re too versatile.

I’d rather a guy that can give me an 8/10 game in one spot than a guy that can give me a 5 or 6/10 in two spots.

That and the group looks stale and uninterested.

Funny, as I think our issue is that we are TRYING to be versatile without a list that is able to deliver on it.

Too many talls
Too many smalls
Too many inside mids
Too many small flankers

Not enough outside speed
Not enough tall utilities with athleticism

At the next draft this is what I'd be targeting

 

[GetDimmaBack]

Not sure I see this side at all. If given the chance at a flag with the possibility of a fall afterward, I'd support having a crack at it.

Me too.

And everyone else prior to 2016, I suspect.

Although there are those who've said they wished we'd never won that flag!

BF is on the other side of the hill sometimes...

 

[Scary_Foot_9]

Personally, I see versatility as our biggest weakness. We’re too versatile.

I’d rather a guy that can give me an 8/10 game in one spot than a guy that can give me a 5 or 6/10 in two spots.

That and the group looks stale and uninterested.

I’ve been saying it for a while Bevo is using now using versatility to paper over cracks whereas it used to be used to exploit matchups. McLean and Macrae are evidence that if your actually performing your role you’ll play in one spot. I think he is of the opinion he doesn’t have the horses but is still trying to win through misdirection/surprise/throwing ***t at the wall and seeing if it sticks.

 

[maddog37]

I simply see this as Bev got a flag with Macca and Rockets lists. He is now building his own team and he will delist and trade quite heavily until it looks how he wants it to.

I reckon he wants a team that can kick the footy well and adapt to changes in the game as they occur hence his versatility mantra.

It’s no magical mystery tour. It will just take time.

 

[DelRe]

**** me. Dog BF fans are the absolute worst. Grant isn’t making excuses, he’s doing exactly what some on here wanted the club to do, which was clear up what the club was and is doing.

Nothing wrong with making a critique of the article or comments. I’d say his reasons for the current performance are reasonable but that wasn’t the criticism it was that (i) perhaps it’s a very poor choice of words but he as good as called the flag a fluke (‘moons aligning for a month’) - the exact lack of respect Bev referenced in the 2017 season launch (ii) the somewhat convenient change in message relative to 2016 (iii) that he’s saying they saw it coming but (and I disagree with your comment on this) there is little sign (at least in the article) of what they did or are doing in response to those known issues.

I personally am happy with most of what he said because it aligns with my own views of where the list is and what has been the root of our issues this year.

Like above though, that’s not the issue I take with his comments in the article. His statement of the current issues are fair but the question is about actions taken and/or not taken and the shifting narrative (agree with the rest of your post).

Not sure I see this side at all. If given the chance at a flag with the possibility of a fall afterward, I'd support having a crack at it.

As would most supporters I expect but that surely wasn’t the strategy - risk everything for a flag which would be followed by a big dip. The discussion at the time (look at the 2017 launch) was based on improving not going backward.

Anyway, my last post on the topic. Criticizing Grant’s comments doesn’t belittle his playing past, doesn’t make a supporter overly negative or less desirous of wanting to win. These issues are not binary, it’s not with us or against us. Sometimes you just take issue with particular points and opinions - particularly when they change and appear to lack consistency.

 

[Hard Ball Get]

Nothing wrong with making a critique of the article or comments. I’d say his reasons for the current performance are reasonable but that wasn’t the criticism it was that (i) perhaps it’s a very poor choice of words but he as good as called the flag a fluke (‘moons aligning for a month’) - the exact lack of respect Bev referenced in the 2017 season launch (ii) the somewhat convenient change in message relative to 2016 (iii) that he’s saying they saw it coming but (and I disagree with your comment on this) there is little sign (at least in the article) of what they did or are doing in response to those known issues.
Like above though, that’s not the issue I take with his comments in the article. His statement of the current issues are fair but the question is about actions taken and/or not taken and the shifting narrative (agree with the rest of your post).
As would most supporters I expect but that surely wasn’t the strategy - risk everything for a flag which would be followed by a big dip. The discussion at the time (look at the 2017 launch) was based on improving not going backward.

Anyway, my last post on the topic. Criticizing Grant’s comments doesn’t belittle his playing past, doesn’t make a supporter overly negative or less desirous of wanting to win. These issues are not binary, it’s not with us or against us. Sometimes you just take issue with particular points and opinions - particularly when they change and appear to lack consistency.

You'd expect that to be the message at the lunch though, wouldn't you? He didn't day we would be going backwards. He said we anticipated it could happen.

 

[Mutt]

You'd expect that to be the message at the lunch though, wouldn't you? He didn't day we would be going backwards. He said we anticipated it could happen.

I agree. Grant didn't say we expected the decline to happen, rather that it was a distinct possibility that had been anticipated. I believe him too.

 

[BRWB]

I agree. Grant didn't say we expected the decline to happen, rather that it was a distinct possibility that had been anticipated. I believe him too.

Anticipated?

Its all very well to anticipate or see a boulder hurtling down the premiership path at you....BUT YOU HAVE TO STEP OUT OF THE WAY...

Otherwise some people would be justified in thinking you are full of crap and hindsight Harry when you say you antipated the possibility of anything.

 

[Hard Ball Get]

Anticipated?

Its all very well to anticipate or see a boulder hurtling down the premiership path at you....BUT YOU HAVE TO STEP OUT OF THE WAY...

Otherwise some people would be justified in thinking you are full of crap and hindsight Harry when you say you antipated the possibility of anything.

I think the point is, if we did that we'd have retired a few blokes earlier and then not won a flag. Instead we opened up the possibility of sliding to hang on and try win one.

 

[BRWB]

I think the point is, if we did that we'd have retired a few blokes earlier and then not won a flag. Instead we opened up the possibility of sliding to hang on and try win one.

Retirements is a bit of a furphy IMO. Only really lost Boyd from the flag team due to retirement havent we? Murph played about three games in 16.

The boulder was that we apparently anticpated mid probs, but didn't recruit or trade any mids in the next two years?

wtf?

 

[BJ06]

the scary thing is last year most of the team was down on form, yet boyd, moz and murph nearly had us playing finals.
without them this year we are looking even worse...

just how important were they???

Cannot be understated how important the loss of three generational clubmen from the locker room is/was/will be. Standard setters.


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[King Harold]

Yeah how dare anyone support their club!


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

Don't know what that even means .
I assume that is suppose to be a having a crack at anyone who questions any decision the club might make.
58 years of following , member for well over 40 years , numerous interstate games.
Don't tell me I don't support this club , Captain Lemming.

 

[Mutt]

Anticipated?

Its all very well to anticipate or see a boulder hurtling down the premiership path at you....BUT YOU HAVE TO STEP OUT OF THE WAY...

Otherwise some people would be justified in thinking you are full of crap and hindsight Harry when you say you antipated the possibility of anything.

Why do you assume that I accept that the club managed things well? I simply said that I believe Grant when he said that the club anticipated that the decline might occur. I made the call early in the 2017 season that we'd bungled things badly. Direct your questions to the Polly-Anna's on here - not me.

 

[King Harold]

The Grant statement I find both refreshing but at the same time concerning.
I think we needed to hear from the club , so this is a good move.
Reading between the lines it's almost a confession they got a few things wrong which are becoming more obvious by the minute.

 

[NBates]

But wait, there's more....(apols if already posted):

How the Western Bulldogs saw their post-premiership slide coming

MICHAEL WARNER, Herald Sun

June 2, 2018 8:00am

Subscriber only

·

·

THE beers were flowing freely at the Western Bulldogs’ 2016 Christmas party.

As players, staff and coaches soaked up the revelry in the downstairs bar of the Railway Hotel in Yarraville, a veteran club figure took a moment to contemplate an astonishing season.

“I just sat back and thought, ‘What a year’,” the Dogs figure recalled this week.

“It was a great day, but here they were, all these young players, some in their very first year, and they’ve won an AFL flag - the first one since 1954 and a VFL flag.

“You think, ‘Geez, we were here a couple of months earlier celebrating, the VFL boys were here as well celebrating their day - and they celebrated hard, as they deserved to - but you just wondered how the club was going to handle it.”

Another insider this week said he sensed the hunger had waned as the post-premiership pre-season campaign kicked off.

John Schultz, Luke Beveridge, Bob Murphy and Easton Wood celebrate the 2016 premiership. Picture: Wayne Ludbey

The Dogs won four of their first five games in 2017, but never recaptured the manic appetite for the contest that made Luke Beveridge a premiership coach in just his second year.

A popular theory is that the Dogs were only the best team when it mattered most in 2016 - over the last four weeks of the season - pinching a flag as the planets aligned from seventh on the ladder.

Just 12 members of the premiership side played in last week’s loss to Collingwood, and in all but one game this year they have fielded the youngest and least-experienced team in the league.

DEVELOPER: WHY PLAYERS LOVE TO HATE McCARTNEY

STRINGER: SPLIT WAS MUTUAL, SAYS BEVERIDGE

The Bulldogs have won 15 games and lost 17 since tasting premiership glory.

Dogs football boss Chris Grant this week told the Herald Sun the potential for the slide had been identified in a review conducted in the weeks after the flag.

“When we stripped it back and reviewed we were under no illusions. We thought, ‘We’ve actually got some challenges in front of us’,” Grant said.

Chris Grant and Rohan Smith carry the 2016 premiership cup. Picture: Michael Klein

“We knew we were going to lose some experience … and so our development and improvement was not simply going to be in a straight line, particularly if we lost key experienced players to injury.”

But the club’s fall to 10th in 2017 came amid a backdrop of football department disharmony, culminating in the departures of highly-rated recruiting manager Simon Dalrymple and list boss Jason McCartney.

One insider said the troubles could be traced back to the low-key departure of football boss Graham Lowe in February last year.

Although rarely sighted in the media, Lowe, who had worked with the All Blacks and for Scottish Rugby Union, was seen as a steadying influence, someone who provided clear direction on roles and responsibilities.

A reshuffle was made when the Bulldogs’ board installed Grant above Lowe in a new director of football role in June 2016.

As Lowe bowed out, former North Ballarat Rebels coach Chris Maple, who coached the Dogs’ VFL team to a flag in 2014, filled a new general manager of football position under Grant.

Some believe the mix isn’t working.

One ex-staffer said the football department leadership lacked experience and Beveridge had “an unbelievable powerbase”.

Luke Beveridge speaks to his players.

“Not many people say no to him and that’s the big downfall, there’s not the Neil Balme-type figure who can come in and tell the coach: ‘No mate, keep out of that area, just do your job,” he said.

The former staff member recalled sending an email to an executive about a minor matter before receiving a reply CC’d to Beveridge.

“I remember thinking, ‘What’s this got to do with him? Surely he’s got more important things to worry about,” he said.

A player agent also suggested Beveridge had “too much control”, a claim the club rejects.

Tensions flared as the losses mounted last year at meetings of the list management committee comprised of Dalrymple, McCartney, Maple, chief executive Gary Kent, Beveridge and Grant.

A revolving door in the CEO’s office didn’t help.

Kent had replaced David Stevenson, who had replaced Simon Garlick. Ameet Bains from St Kilda took over from Kent in December last year

Bains has had an immediate impact, appointing Sam Power from Carlton into a beefed up list manager position soon before Dalrymple defected to the Swans, replaced by Nick Austin from Richmond.

Marcus Bontempelli after losing to Sydney last year. Picture: Phil Hillyard

“The fundamental change that was required was to restructure our list management department to have one single point of responsibility, which is commonplace across most clubs,” Bains explained.

“So you have a list manager who oversees the entire department and the recruiting manager reports through to that person.

“If the list manager and recruiting manager are on the same level of responsibility it can cause issues if you’ve got different points of view.

“Structurally, there was a change that was required.”

Partying by a small group of players began well before the premiership and is not denied by the club.

“Part of Bevo’s philosophy is to give the players a long rope and some took advantage of it,” an insider said.

The tipping point came in October last year when premiership forward Jake Stringer was shown the door.

The Dogs insist the Stringer’s departure was a mutual decision made with the blessing of the list management committee and the player’s management, but not everyone agrees.

Former Dog Jake Stringer in action for Essendon.

“That was clumsily handled — and led to the Josh Schache trade, which also raised eyebrows in the industry given their lack of initial interest,” the ex-staffer said.

Pressed on the Schache trade, Grant said: “We were always keen on him.”

The Tom Boyd deal — seven years at $7 million — has three more seasons to run but with a flag in the bag and his wages down to about $750,000 a season thanks to heavily front-ended payments, is now considered less of an issue.

Beveridge is loved across the club and most believe the situation is retrievable as the club sits 14th on the ladder.

“We get that on-field is not where it needs to be and everyone is working hard to turn that around, but the club overall is in as healthy a position as it’s ever been,” Bains said.

“With 12 games to go there are still very much aspirations on finals, but there are some realities on our list profile and certainly our team profile week to week that mean it has been challenging.

“We also acknowledge, even withstanding all of that, that we have underperformed at different times this year.”

 

[Dogs_R_Us]

Thanks, NBates

 

[BRWB]

Why do you assume that I accept that the club managed things well? I simply said that I believe Grant when he said that the club anticipated that the decline might occur. I made the call early in the 2017 season that we'd bungled things badly. Direct your questions to the Polly-Anna's on here - not me.

While I quoted you I wasnt assuming anything about you Mutt. Believe it or not m8, I actually wasnt even thinking about you. I was referring to the clubs decision making and statement.

I guess it is what version of incompetence do you suspect.

1 - Grant saw it coming but screwed up managing it

2 - Grant is being a hindsight hero claiming he anticipated it when he didn't

I suspect a bit of of both. I mean how could you fully anticipate not having enough contested mids and then not get any to the club for two seasons running and enter a season with the land of the giants list?

I almost prefer that he didnt see it coming as the poor management is even more concerning...

 

[Next Waiting]

The beers were flowing freely at the Herald Sun 2017 Christamas party.

As the editors and journalists soaked up the revelry a veteran Hun staffer took a moment to reflect on the demise of journalistic standards and dwindling circulation.

"I just sat back and thought what has happened to this industry", the Hun figure recalled.

"If people knew how these guys actually came up with their stories (shaking head), well let's just say it's not journalism as I knew it when I started", lamented the Hun insider.

"We don't have any journalists left. Most of these guys trawl social media sites like Big Footy looking for ideas and opinions that fit with an agenda or narrative they want to run with then they publish the opinions as information gained from insiders or unnamed sources, " claimed the inside source who didn't wish to be named ....

 

[bullish23]

Grant saw it coming but traded in Cloke. Hmm

 

[Draft Pick]

Grant saw it coming but traded in Cloke. Hmm

I’m not sure the recruitment of Cloke proves or disproves anything Grant claims in the article.

If anything it shows they wanted to bring more experience in.

 

[The Inbetweener]

While it’s actually good to hear from the club on the issue I have a hard time believing what Grant has said.

Yep we lost experience in Boyd and Murphy and while no doubt Murphy played a role, he was barely even part of the 16 team.

Our footy is really inexperienced, to me it seems like we didn’t handle it well and haven’t been able to develop our players as we would have hoped

 

[Charlie Bucket]

Nothing wrong with making a critique of the article or comments. I’d say his reasons for the current performance are reasonable but that wasn’t the criticism it was that (i) perhaps it’s a very poor choice of words but he as good as called the flag a fluke (‘moons aligning for a month’) - the exact lack of respect Bev referenced in the 2017 season launch (ii) the somewhat convenient change in message relative to 2016 (iii) that he’s saying they saw it coming but (and I disagree with your comment on this) there is little sign (at least in the article) of what they did or are doing in response to those known issues.
Like above though, that’s not the issue I take with his comments in the article. His statement of the current issues are fair but the question is about actions taken and/or not taken and the shifting narrative (agree with the rest of your post).
As would most supporters I expect but that surely wasn’t the strategy - risk everything for a flag which would be followed by a big dip. The discussion at the time (look at the 2017 launch) was based on improving not going backward.

Anyway, my last post on the topic. Criticizing Grant’s comments doesn’t belittle his playing past, doesn’t make a supporter overly negative or less desirous of wanting to win. These issues are not binary, it’s not with us or against us. Sometimes you just take issue with particular points and opinions - particularly when they change and appear to lack consistency.

You’re suggesting action hasn’t been taken. How do we know this isn’t the case ? How do we know the club didn’t back our young kids to develope in to better players by 2018-19 ? Clubs can’t just go and recruit player A and problem solved.
Some mention on here about what Hawks did after 2008 recruiting wise as something that we should be doing. It’s not that simple.

We need to remember the Dogs are an ELITE SPORTING CLUB ( at Aussie sports level ). They know more about the wrongs and rights and do’s and don’ts of all things football than anyone who’s posted on this thread. They spend hours apon hours apon hours discussing the issues that are discussed on here and probably cover all bases regarding list management and football tactics to the level they can and like all clubs they get it wrong sometimes.
They haven’t nailed the two years following the flag and they were aware it could happen. Just as every other club is aware that what they plan for may not work. We didn’t majorly **** it up, we just didn’t get it 100% right. It doesn’t mean we’re ****ed and headed for ten years straight of wooden spoons as some on here suggest.

As for the flag, we didn’t go all out to win it. We won it with youngest, least experienced side in history. That’s why it was so amazing, it almost came out of nowhere. If anything it cursed us in the sense that the expectations from fans and media since have blurred the reality of our situation to the point we all can’t believe we haven’t gone Hawks style three peat, recruited all the players we need to cover list issues and brought in all the best assistant coaches in the comp to form the ultimate coaching panel. Im happy to admit I’m one who thought we’d just role on and make every decision correctly but it just doesn’t happen like that.

Is everything honky dory at the Dogs ? No. Is it the end of the world ? No. Do the club and coaches have some idea of what they’re doing ? Yes
Do we have a good young list that will come good soon and be vying for flags around the time we originally thought we would before we won the flag with the least experienced list in history ? **** yes.

Let me clarify too, this isn’t all directed at you. You aren’t overly negative. Just covering my take on things in my response to your points.