What's going on with Carlton's list

[Buzz/Sticks/bryce]

Maybe Carlton failed to recognize that he was good enough to play first ruck??

Either that, or we were ok for ruck talent. Maybe W.C will rookie a ruckman who won't have a chance of getting past NicNat and Cox?

 

[Wayne Arnold]

I rate him higher than Q Lynch

On what basis, marking ability, goal kicking, rucking?

 

[Buzz/Sticks/bryce]

On what basis, marking ability, goal kicking, rucking?

6 years younger. Talent equal.

 

[Wayne Arnold]

6 years younger. Talent equal.

Please specify what aspects of his game are better. Granted, he is younger.

 

[Buzz/Sticks/bryce]

Please specify what aspects of his game are better. Granted, he is younger.

I think Dawes is a little more mobile than Lynch and , when CONFIDENT, far more likely to change the course of a game. Lynch is a thumping kick and a little better in the ruck. Whichever black and white way you want to view this, its a bad trade.

 

[Wayne Arnold]

I think Dawes is a little more mobile than Lynch and , when CONFIDENT, far more likely to change the course of a game. Lynch is a thumping kick and a little better in the ruck. Whichever black and white way you want to view this, its a bad trade.

How is it a bad trade as if you said, their talent is equal and we also get a first round draft pick? Sounds like a good deal to me. So in all honesty, we've established that Dawes ain't much of a loss. By the time Q Stick hangs up the boots our young draft pick will be playing well in the seniors. Happy days.

 

[Buzz/Sticks/bryce]

How is it a bad trade as if you said, their talent is equal and we also get a first round draft pick? Sounds like a good deal to me. So in all honesty, we've established that Dawes ain't much of a loss. By the time Q Stick hangs up the boots our young draft pick will be playing well in the seniors. Happy days.

We,ve established that Collingwood supporters aint missin' Dawes. I hear your time frames and list management back-slapping. And go the as yet nameless draftee. What a jet

 

[Wayne Arnold]

We,ve established that Collingwood supporters aint missin' Dawes. I hear your time frames and list management back-slapping. And go the as yet nameless draftee. What a jet

You and I both know that the majority of impartial viewers believe Collingwood absolutely nailed the FA and Trade period. So don't pretend otherwise. You don't rate Dawes, I don't rate Dawes, either way it doesn't matter. Unlike Carlton, at Collingwood we don't stand still waiting for things to happen, we get on the front foot and make things happen. Brad Green doesn't count. Im sure he's just as confused as you as to how he finds himself employed as an assistant coach.

 

[Jeremias]

Seems as if the course of this thread has made a slight tangent from Carlton supporters making excuses for their performances against GC and Port, to Carlton supporters now making excuses as to why they can't develop or keep their talent. I think we need to pursue this line for a while. Has any club in recent years let more quality go than Carlton? Will Carlton ultimately regret letting go of talent such as Jacobs, Kennedy and Grigg as well as overlooking players of the quality of Cotchin in the draft. Is the current Carlton recruiting and development staff up to scratch or is a clean out needed? Can Carlton win a flag using their 'quick fix' strategy that has failed them the last decade, and if not, how long will it take for them to change to a more long term strategy?

Discuss.

Exactly as I thought. Terrible troll is terrible. You couldn't even identify the topic of this thread.

Fail.

I answered your queries in my previous post, and I made an outlandish statement that if you are a troll, you won't address the points I raised in the slightest.

It seems I was spot on. You aren't interested in serious discussion in any form. You are interested solely in trolling, and for that you should venture to Bay 13.

 

[Monkey King]

There's beginning to be a disturbing trend of Carlton players being traded away who end up becoming quality AFL players. When you see guys like Kennedy, Jacobs and Grigg all leaving and turning into quality AFL players questions have to be asked of the football department. Carlton have the worst recruiting and development staff in the AFL imo - even worse than Melbourne!

You've defeated your own argument before you even started. Carlton plucked Jacobs from the rookie draft and developed him into a very good ruck who smashed Mummy in a final was highly rated at the club and highly sought after by another AFL club in his home state.

Yeah ... shocking recruitment and development

 

[Monkey King]

You and I both know that the majority of impartial viewers believe Collingwood absolutely nailed the FA and Trade period. So don't pretend otherwise.

I nominated you blokes as the biggest winners in another thread, but only on the back of your trades ... ie the guys who left your club and the gold you stole for them. You really did get away with daylight robbery on both counts. Credit where it's due. But I think your FA is much less highly rated by impartial viewers than Collignwood supporters. Lynch, Young and Russell are all fairly ho-hum.

Unlike Carlton, at Collingwood we don't stand still waiting for things to happen ...

Carlton moved on a number of coaches and senior players since the end of the season and will be participating in the upcoming draft. Not sure how you think that's standing still, but oh well.

You'd be wise to take heed of the words of a great coach - don't mistake activity for achievement

 

[Wayne Arnold]

You'd be wise to take heed of the words of a great coach - don't mistake activity for achievement

The wise coach also used to say that if you stand still you will eventually be passed. Maybe the two approaches are mutually exclusive in this instance. Otherwise there seems to be some form of contradiction.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Maybe Carlton failed to recognize that he was good enough to play first ruck??

If you had been keeping up, you would realise that Carlton wanted to keep him. To that point though, he had shown no more than any of our other young rucks. We were selecting our ruckman based on form that year, and all showed potential. Let's not turn it into something it is not. This isn't politics.

 

[Monkey King]

The wise coach also used to say that if you stand still you will eventually be passed.

So probably best you read the paragraph above the line you quoted no? Yeah, then get back to me!

And you're right. Mutually exclusive with no contradiction, as they're not talking about the same thing. One is saying if you do nothing you will be passed. The other is saying just because you're doing something, doesn't mean you're doing it well. Completely different things. Did you really need that pointed out to you?

 

[forwardflanker]

Exactly as I thought. Terrible troll is terrible. You couldn't even identify the topic of this thread.

Actually it was I who created this thread, so perhaps it's you who needs to go back and reread the op. Anyway we have moved on from the topic of the op which was addressed in the first 10 or so pages. I suggest you read them but the cliff-notes are that Carlton supporters think they have the best young players in the game whereas the supporters of every other club believe there has been a genuine crisis of youth at Optus which has lead to such a disappointing result in not making the 8 and losing to Port and GC.

The next 10 pages has just involved bickering over injuries and their effect. Once again Carlton supporters claim that no club in the history of the game has been plagued by worse injuries in a single season. Everyone else points out that Collingwood and WC both had a run with injuries just as bad if not worse yet managed to finish 4th and 5th respectively and were not beaten by Port or the GC.

There has also been smatterings of Bryce Gibbs form throughout the thread however this point is largely not in contention - even Carlton supporters are prepared to admit that he is a major disappointment and needs to work on his attack on the ball.

I predict that over the next 10 or so pages we will continue on the current line of argument, that is why Carlton can't develop any quality youth, and why when this youth leave they run into all Australian form. For mine Carlton is like the Bermuda triangle of recruiting and development. It's simply defies explanation as to how the best young talent in Australia can disappear or transform into Bryce Gibbs or Andrew Walker as soon as they arrive at Visy.

 

[Wayne Arnold]

Sorry, didn't see the part where you noted Carlton will be participating in the draft. I guess other clubs should follow suit.

 

[Sector 7G]

I remember somewhere Malthouse saying he's been using the same gameplan for the past decade and nothings gonna change which would suggest that it will be defensive again which almost certainly means round the boundary imo. Will be interesting to see how it goes down. I'd suggest that it will work very well against everyone not in the top 4-6 sides however these days it's pretty questionable as to whether it works against the more talented and disciplined defenses. In spite of what the press said we played a very similar style this season and were clearly found out by Sydney and Hawthorn who were both very disciplined in their defensive games.

That would because the Collingwood side is in decline. You often played 3 guys in their first season in the ones who struggled (wasn't Yagamoor meant to be a direct replacement for Leon?). Players like Didak, Jolly and Johnson are past it. Daisy, Shaw and O'Brien are a shadow of the players they were 2 years ago as AA's. Key defenders struggled to stay on the park. Cloke was playing himself. It may seem that Collingwood had a reasonable season but they lost 3 times as many regular season games.

You may ask whats going on with Carlton's list, but what is happening with Collingwoods? You had no ruck depth and you sack 3. Your key defenders couldn't stay on the park. One retires and one will struggle to play next year and you made no attempt to pick up one of the free agents in Rivers or Chaplin. You should spend more time looking inward.

 

[Monkey King]

Sorry, didn't see the part where you noted Carlton will be participating in the draft. I guess other clubs should follow suit.

Ahh Wayne, you do the stereotype of the Collingwood supporter struggling with literacy proud

 

[forwardflanker]

That would because the Collingwood side is in decline. You often played 3 guys in their first season in the ones who struggled (wasn't Yagamoor meant to be a direct replacement for Leon?). Players like

Actually the reason we still managed to finish in the 4 and not lose to sides like the GC and Port is because with injuries we were able to successfully bring in young players who were able to contribute to our wins. When Carlton brought their youth in they failed miserable which is why I contend that their is a youth crisis down at optus which is basically the whole point of this thread. Nice try though

 

[Wayne Arnold]

Ahh Wayne, you do the stereotype of the Collingwood supporter struggling with literacy proud

No, I think I was being slightly condescending in the previous post. I was pointing out that Mick (or any coach for that matter) can spout off lines after the fact to suit what has passed (inactivity and all that nonsense). It's all just a bit of spin. But hey, you moved on a few coaches, poached Brad Green and will take part in the draft, so I guess you ain't standing still.

 

[Gone Critical]

From my perspective from the back end of June to when you lost to North I thought your best form was rearing again; despite the losses to Hawthorn and the Blues.

Wow MK, is it impossible for you to concede even a little point. I know we are getting silly here but you are contending that the time I nominated Collingwoods best form for the year (when we won 10 on end) was our best results but not our best form. When asked for our best form you nominate a time that in facts overlaps with the time I nominated but throw in a six week period where we had 2 terrible losses, a match against GWS, fell in against the Saints (Buckley described us as a mix of Benny Hill and the Goodies) and had 2 good wins.

In the time I nominated we went from being about 5th in line for the flag betting to favorites. The time you nominate we went from near favorites to 4th in line on betting. On what basis can you make such a claim. The Blues loss was demoralising but the way Hawthorn took us apart in round 17 shocked me. That was clearly our worst performance for the year. You have nominated the time when our season unravelled but when our injury list was well and truly on the mend.

Can you explain that for me?

 

[Sector 7G]

Actually the reason we still managed to finish in the 4 and not lose to sides like the GC and Port is because with injuries we were able to successfully bring in young players who were able to contribute to our wins. When Carlton brought their youth in they failed miserable which is why I contend that their is a youth crisis down at optus which is basically the whole point of this thread. Nice try though

1 Collingwood were starting from a higher base so while the managed to stay in the top 4 they still lost 3 times as many games in 2012 in a weaker year than 2011. Sign a side in decline.
2 Collingwood also managed to lose multiple games to teams outside the 8. I enjoyed them greatly.
3 It wasn't the young players that got Collingwood across the line but the experienced campaigners that were able to get the job done through the experience of having played together deep in September. Interestingly there were far fewer thumpings by Collingwood throughout this season. The fact that Collingwood hasn't had early draft picks for 3 years is clearly evident when watching the Collingwood youngster play. Clear lack of young quality.
4 Most learned football observers would be of the opinion that it was when Carlton brought in Casboult, Bell, McInnes that Carltons' season got back on track. Watson and Bootsma also showed significant improvement. As strange as it might seem to people who don't watch Carlton week in week out there plenty to be excited about Carlton's youth.
5 If you followed a side that had won a few more premierships in your life time you would recognise the signs of a side in decline. Classic tell tale signs are there for all to see.

 

[Wayne Arnold]

So Collingwood drop from second to fourth and are in decline but Carlton drop from fifth to tenth and everything is rosey?

 

[Jeremias]

Actually it was I who created this thread, so perhaps it's you who needs to go back and reread the op. Anyway we have moved on from the topic of the op which was addressed in the first 10 or so pages. I suggest you read them but the cliff-notes are that Carlton supporters think they have the best young players in the game whereas the supporters of every other club believe there has been a genuine crisis of youth at Optus which has lead to such a disappointing result in not making the 8 and losing to Port and GC.

Couldn't even stick to the topic that you created. Absolute classic.

Don't lump all other supporters in with your own stupidity and tendency to troll. I've seen many responses in here, and in other threads discussing similar topics, acknowledging that injuries, whilst not the sole reason for our poor season, played an enormous part in us failing to make the final 8.

There aren't many Carlton supporters who think we have the best young players in the game. As is the case with every other club in the league, there are a minority who tend to over-exaggerate the quality on the list. I see you have to resort to generalizing in order to push your own failed agenda. Another classic tell that your argument is flimsy, and you are simply trolling. What's next - pointing out a simple spelling or grammatical error? Or am I giving you too much credit?

There has also been smatterings of Bryce Gibbs form throughout the thread however this point is largely not in contention - even Carlton supporters are prepared to admit that he is a major disappointment and needs to work on his attack on the ball.

Some, yes. However once again you are focusing on the minority. There are supporters at every club who ignore the rational, preferring the hysteric and the overly-critical. If you believe that the opinion of a hysterical minority is validation for a rational argument, then good luck to you. If recruiting a player who is a near certainty to play 250+ games at a very solid level is to be considered a 'major disappointment' - then yes, I suppose Bryce Gibbs is a major disappointment.

I predict that over the next 10 or so pages we will continue on the current line of argument, that is why Carlton can't develop any quality youth, and why when this youth leave they run into all Australian form. For mine Carlton is like the Bermuda triangle of recruiting and development. It's simply defies explanation as to how the best young talent in Australia can disappear or transform into Bryce Gibbs or Andrew Walker as soon as they arrive at Visy.

And I predict that over the next 10 or so pages you will continue to be queried on several dubious and flimsy points you have raised. Further to that, I predict that you will continue to fail to respond directly to such queries, and thus continuing to confirm that you are nothing but a troll who in fact isn't interested in discussing any of the 'valid points' you seem to think you have raised in this thread. Everything defies explanation if the person you are trying to explain it to has their head firmly shoved up their rectum.

 

[Jeremias]

So Collingwood drop from second to fourth and are in decline but Carlton drop from fifth to tenth and everything is rosey?

Yep. Sacking the senior coach and several other senior staff members is a clear indication that the club believes 'everything is rosey'.