Opinion Which direction to take from here?

[Whit3y]

I'm about to burn my membership and rip up all my old Cats posters.... Boohoo!!! The club is in a middle of a meltdown...
oh, hang on a minute- it's just half of BF posters who are having a meltdown and acting like the Queen of Hearts.
I might hang onto that membership just a bit longer.

ill take that leigh tudor poster u have

 

[Teriyakicat]

Fair enough, we disagree on that. For the last two seasons, Scott has explicitly played one of them in defence, ahead of a young defender. This worked so well that Kelly cost us 3 goals at the start of the North final last year, and Bartel's goal square blunder in 2013 cost us a critical goal in the final quarter against Hawthorn in the Prelim final. A game we lost by 5 points.

If you had Bews or Smedts or any other young player playing instead of Bartel or Kelly- I'd say the 3 goals or single goal would've blown out to 5 and 3. Yes, they were pretty much cooked by the end of the season but I consider that an error on the part of the MC or perhaps the failure of other players to meet expectations and thus more workload on the shoulders of the older players.

Kelly yes, Bartel no. Bartel can be played up forward and hopefully provide a foil for Clark and Hawkins. Horlin-Smith was rightly dropped, but responded in the best possible manner. He should come straight back in. Not sure if Gore comes in, or perhaps Blease. Either way it would actually reward form.

Rewarding VFL form is one thing but giving a younger player the red carpet treatment over an older player who has played one poor game in a losing team that was soundly trounced, just because he is younger, is something else entirely. Would Gore have been any better than Bartel or Kelly yesterday? I would say 'probably not'.

Not anymore. Bartel is so-so and Kelly is a liability. Are they going to get better? No. Are the right side of 30? No. Are they part of our next premiership team? No. It's time to decide where the club really wants to be in a few years' time.

Those two players were in the top third of players in votes per game in our B&F last year. Bartel was ranked 2nd at the halfway mark and 3/4 mark of the season. Enright, whose head has also been called for after yesterday and who is also the wrong side of 30, was among our best 5 players in his last 8 games played (as voted by our coaches) and ranked 6th in votes per game overall.
In our first NAB game vs the Gold Coast, Bartel and Kelly were in the top 5 Cats players as ranked by AFL.com.au. Bartel topped the Fantasy points in both NAB 1 and 2 and got 22 possessions in half a game in NAB 3.

 

[Teriyakicat]

ill take that leigh tudor poster u have

Sorry- I ripped that up in 2013 when we lost to the Hawks. There aren't many posters left!! Sorry!

 

[thegerman]

I think the succession planning has been ok for all areas except tall defensive posts where we've covered with Rivers and then tried to do so with Frawley. Don't forget, only ten players from yesterday (Bartel, Kelly, SJ, Selwood, Hawk, Stokes, Duncan, Lonergan, Taylor, Enright) played in the 2011 flag.

The point is, which you seem to miss, is that we have 10 or so 30yo+ players. The kids we want to take over from these types, have played a handful of games. Going on last year's form, those games won't increase, if at all. From the list posted, three or four may retire this year, which doesn't include the perennially injured.

So we may have a rush to inject games into kids that aren't ready. That's not good planning.

 

[00VicWard001]

Where to next week?

Well the fixture says KP Vs Freo.

That's where they'll be.

We were shit today. Got punched in the throat. Hawks were brilliant and everything they said they would be they were.

In fact, Id say that the 2nd best team in the comp - the Swans last year, could tell a very similiar tale. That, IMO, was the Hawks of the GF last year.
Amazing effort to repeat it 6 months later and id say its a massive shot across the bow of the competition - not just us.

If we roll over again next week the yes strap in for along one. Not saying we will win but we cant play that shit again.

Go Catters

Measured and reasonable post!!

Next week will be when we can start sharpening knives. Round 1 is historically f*cked because every team has been in a bubble for 6 months.

 

[Munich]

As I watched player after player continually make little or no attempt to put everything on the line yesterday against the Hawks, it was certainly heartening to know that there was only person responsible. Only one individual who should shoulder all the blame.

What do you think Clarkson would do in this position?

 

[00VicWard001]

I think we need 6 - 9 games before we assess the direction.

In the 1Q today Enright made so many mistakes I was thinking he'd played one game too many, but he got better. That was the problem today. We weren't sharp, and against a ruthless and clinical Hawthorn everything was amplified.

I don't think any team would have come within cooee of Hawthorn today.

The veterans will be absolutely furious after that effort. Sometimes you need to just finish the game and regroup and get ready for next week.

if they don't come out breathing fire against toughy opposition at their home ground THEN I will be disappointed.

It's a great opportunity for guys like Kelly and Enright to set an example and to show that they still have it. And it's a great opportunity for guys like Duncan to show how much they are hurting and how much control they have of THEIR team.

Playing Melbourne at home and thrashing them wouldn't prove a thing. Playing Freo at home and beating them is exactly what will reverse the fans and supporters and doubters opinions.

 

[mcwilrob]

The point is, which you seem to miss, is that we have 10 or so 30yo+ players. The kids we want to take over from these types, have played a handful of games. Going on last year's form, those games won't increase, if at all. From the list posted, three or four may retire this year, which doesn't include the perennially injured.

So we may have a rush to inject games into kids that aren't ready. That's not good planning.

Given that Essendon got away with its "injections" that sound like a good idea

 

[thegerman]

Given that Essendon got away with its "injections" that sound like a good idea

We'll just shred the evidence and call it even

 

[Sttew]

The veterans will be absolutely furious after that effort. Sometimes you need to just finish the game and regroup and get ready for next week.

if they don't come out breathing fire against toughy opposition at their home ground THEN I will be disappointed.

It's a great opportunity for guys like Kelly and Enright to set an example and to show that they still have it. And it's a great opportunity for guys like Duncan to show how much they are hurting and how much control they have of THEIR team.

Playing Melbourne at home and thrashing them wouldn't prove a thing. Playing Freo at home and beating them is exactly what will reverse the fans and supporters and doubters opinions.

Spot on!!

 

[00VicWard001]

Spot on!!

I feel like the team not only owes itself redemption - but also owes us - the members and supporters. We've broken records for membership this year, which means that we are doing our part. What better way to do it than to take it out on another memorable and hated home In front of Us.

On the opposite side Lyon will be looking to land the knockout punch to a contender who is reeling. And he would love to do it to us at home.

 

[FredLeDeux]

What do you think Clarkson would do in this position?

Punch out his producer.

 

[Pivo]

Punch out his producer.

Mistook him for a wall obviously.

 

[iameviljez]

The point is, which you seem to miss, is that we have 10 or so 30yo+ players. The kids we want to take over from these types, have played a handful of games. Going on last year's form, those games won't increase, if at all. From the list posted, three or four may retire this year, which doesn't include the perennially injured.

So we may have a rush to inject games into kids that aren't ready. That's not good planning.

Two quick points:

• Kelly, Stokes, Lonergan, Bartel, SJ, Enright, Mackie and McIntosh is eight, not ten. Those retirements will be staggered between the end of this year and end of 2017, I would imagine.
• We've already put a lot of game time into a number of players in the last three-four years. The alternative was to rush a bunch of kids in within a single year or two, which as you point out is folly.

I think it's fair to say that Enright, Kelly and maybe one of SJ, Bartel or Lonergan will go this year (though you get the feeling they'll have to be dragged off kicking and screaming). The only one who really hasn't been planned for well is Lonergan.

 

[goyoucatters]

What do you think Clarkson would do in this position?

I have no hesitation in saying he'd do better than Scott right now.

But that's not really saying anything dramatic at all.

He's the best in the comp by a fair stretch at present.

In his last two competitive games as a coach, Clarko has made the two AFL premiership coaches before him look utterly clueless.

Chris Scott sits alongside all the other coaches at present (Kenny aside, perhaps) in copping one heck of a football lesson from AC at this stage.

 

[Lana]

I'm quite sure he had nothing to do with it.

Those boys coached themselves to that flag.

By completely changing our game plan. You have absolutely no clue.

 

[BIGANT]

Maybe another top 10 pick, after we looked second rate yesterday.....this time we won't need to swap picks to upgrade.

 

[Lana]

Two quick points:

• Kelly, Stokes, Lonergan, Bartel, SJ, Enright, Mackie and McIntosh is eight, not ten. Those retirements will be staggered between the end of this year and end of 2017, I would imagine.
• We've already put a lot of game time into a number of players in the last three-four years. The alternative was to rush a bunch of kids in within a single year or two, which as you point out is folly.

I think it's fair to say that Enright, Kelly and maybe one of SJ, Bartel or Lonergan will go this year (though you get the feeling they'll have to be dragged off kicking and screaming). The only one who really hasn't been planned for well is Lonergan.

Missing Rivers. But otherwise I agree with all of the above except the Lonergan bit, he's contracted for next year while everyone else isn't.

 

[iameviljez]

Missing Rivers. But otherwise I agree with all of the above.

Oh yeah, turned 30 over the offseason. My bad, thanks.

 

[bulletproof]

The veterans will be absolutely furious after that effort. Sometimes you need to just finish the game and regroup and get ready for next week.
.

The veterans were supposed to be furious after being knocked out in straight sets. There comes a point where you have to be realistic and say, the veterans may be furious, but they simply don't have it in them anymore.

The emotional aspect to the game is worth very little.

 

[meto]

Not playing because he is too slow for the modern game

Is that right?...I'd be looking at his stats before making ingenious statements like that.

 

[Vdubs]

Good point. I'd be happy if we could do a Hawks' bottoming out - 7th, wasn't it? In 2009?, then rise from the ashes to play 3 consecutive GFs a few years later...
It's be nice to win all 3, too

Sorry.
Incorrect.
Hawks were 9th in 09, but it was not a bottom out or a rebuild, it was a Flag hangover.

 

[thegerman]

Two quick points:

• Kelly, Stokes, Lonergan, Bartel, SJ, Enright, Mackie and McIntosh is eight, not ten. Those retirements will be staggered between the end of this year and end of 2017, I would imagine.
• We've already put a lot of game time into a number of players in the last three-four years. The alternative was to rush a bunch of kids in within a single year or two, which as you point out is folly.

I think it's fair to say that Enright, Kelly and maybe one of SJ, Bartel or Lonergan will go this year (though you get the feeling they'll have to be dragged off kicking and screaming). The only one who really hasn't been planned for well is Lonergan.

Yep, apologise for the mistake. Including a 29yo Taylor. I think I saw 10 on a channel 7 stat during the game. They muddy have got it wrong also.

Hmmm, so my point, is that over the next two years, we will have a minimum of 8 retirements, not including the perennially injured, our those that don't cut it.

And this has been managed by getting 20-30 games into whom?

 

[iameviljez]

Yep, apologise for the mistake. Including a 29yo Taylor. I think I saw 10 on a channel 7 stat during the game. They muddy have got it wrong also.

Hmmm, so my point, is that over the next two years, we will have a minimum of 8 retirements, not including the perennially injured, our those that don't cut it.

And this has been managed by getting 20-30 games into whom?

Depends on how you see the retirements panning out?

2015: Kelly, Enright, SJ (Caddy, Guthrie, Motlop)
2016: Lonergan, McIntosh, Bartel (God only knows, Stanley/Vardy, Hyphen)
2017: Rivers, Mackie, Stokes (Who knows?, Bews/Thurlow, Murdoch/McCarthy)

It doesn't help that the three really bright young talents who should be hitting their straps right now are Christensen, Menzel and Vardy. That would have been ideal, but those circumstances are really beyond our control.

 

[CharacterFirst]

Gee that 2009 draft has hurt us.

Imagine Menzel, Duncan, Christensen, Vardy, Cowan, Laidler, all in our side and with the physical freedom and experience that their draft peers like Fyfe/Martin/Talia/Jetta/Carlisle/Gunston now have.